Question about jumps: the Wally

questions about jumps

Thanks MM for the suggestions. Thanks Joe for the response to 'what is a wally?'.

Ok, so a wally, if I understand correctly, is typically a single jump, with back inside edge take off, and back outside edge landing on the same foot as take off. First question: what does the free leg do? Second: you mentioned this is rythmic due to the in air change of emphasis of the body to obtain proper edge, I think I can 'see that' in my head, but the question is are there other rythmic jumps too so I could compare? Third: A triple wally would then really be a triple sal with opposite exit edge? or not??? Fourth: why don't people do this, meaning what is the history of this jump if you know about that (you mentioned, Joe, something about people don't do wally's anymore, so when did they?) Fifth: you mentioned that you don't like the wally with toe assist....YIKES ...can you explain that, if you don't mind.

Ok, now I found this site: http://www.skatejournal.com/jump.html#rotjumps...which explains the jumps, so I won't bombard you with more questions about the way other jumps are executed....so even with the wally questions, I guess I'm most curious about why and when it was used, and why it isn't a common triple now as well as the 'rythmic' comparison. Thanks.

emma - the Wally is an edge jump like the loop jump except it takes off on a back inside edge and lands on the same foot back outside.. While the salchow takes off on bi edge it lands on the opposite foot.

The last I know about the Wally was from an interview I watched on TV of a football play when asked what he will be doing during the summer months. He replied, with a wink, that he would be working on his double toe wally! That was about the time of Yamaguchi. Other than that, I see Kurt doing a single wally in his footwork, and some competitor skates do a single in their transitions.

I'd like to see Stephane do a quad or triple Wally.

Joe

Thanks Joe. From that site I mentioned above, this is what they say about Wally:


"Like the lutz, a walley is a counter-rotation jump. It is somewhat similar to the loop because it takes off and lands on the same foot without a toe assist. The jump initiates from a RBI edge, usually with the free leg swinging backward to lift the skater into the air. It lands on a RBO edge. Multi-revolution walleys are rarely performed. However, a series of two or more walleys in alternating directions (CCW then CW) adds difficulty to a competitive routine. A walley or walley series can be followed with a double or triple jump to create a technically challenging jump sequence."

So, my question now is: do people think that this jump is harder than the lutz, and thus why it isn't commonly done in a triple? I'm still learning a lot...but intutitively it sounds (relatively) easier to me since the jumper would be jumping in the direction of his/her edge, no?

With CoP, is there now motivation to bring in this kind of jump (here i'm referring to the last part of the quote)? And if so, what would that motivation be (technical marks or the various pcs marks)? Thanks.

PS...i've read the basic jump descritions, like loop, sal, etc a number of times in the last year, and I still get them mixed up in my head...sorry if that is annoying.

emma said:

So, my question now is: do people think that this jump is harder than the lutz, and thus why it isn't commonly done in a triple?

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The walley is harder than the lutz because there is no toe assist. A comparable jump would be the "toeless lutz" (back outside in the nondominant direction, jump to back outside on the other foot, in the dominant direction), which is even less common and would also be very difficult to perform. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen one.

I have seen skaters approach a salchow from a back outside edge in the other direction, then change edge and jump from the inside edge. Some juvenile-intermediate level skaters doing doubles, and Julia Soldatova with a triple -- check out her 1999 long program. I guess we could call that a "toeless flutz" or "toeless slutz," but basically it's just a difficult entry into a salchow. A real toeless lutz would take off from the back outside with no change of edge and no toe assist, but somehow change direction in the process.

Anyway, back to the walley. It takes off from a back inside edge on the other foot (the one used for loop takeoffs) and changes direction on the takeoff, without a toe assist. Usually the skater does an edge change or two before the takeoff, with the free foot behind, and jumps with the free foot still behind, so the change of direction happens at the point where another edge change would take place, but after the skater has already left the ice.

I'm still learning a lot...but intutitively it sounds (relatively) easier to me since the jumper would be jumping in the direction of his/her edge, no?

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For the typical counterclockwise skater, the walley takes off from the right back inside edge, which is traveling clockwise, and it switches to counterclockwise rotation in the air, to land on a right back outside edge (CCW).

With CoP, is there now motivation to bring in this kind of jump (here i'm referring to the last part of the quote)? And if so, what would that motivation be (technical marks or the various pcs marks)? Thanks.

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They would be counted as transitions, not as jumps that would get points.

If someone starts doing double walleys, then the powers that be would have to rethink that approach and possibly assign a point value. Unless the points for a double walley were at least as high as a double axel, though (and I think the difficulty is at least comparable), then skaters wouldn't bother doing them and using up one of the alloted jump passes when they could do a double axel or another triple instead.

Similar for double inside axel, if it were ever done. (Elvis Stojko tried that one in his 1993 long program, but the takeoff was basically from two feet so it wouldn't get full credit anyway.)

I doubt anyone will ever do triple walleys or triple inside axels or triple toeless lutzes.

emma, these are all unusual jumps that hardly ever get performed because it's hard enough to perform them as singles much less doubles or triples, and jump difficulty for the past 30 or 40 years has been defined largely by rotation. If you're still learning the basic takeoffs that are performed as triples, you'd be better off concentrating on those before worrying about the unusual jumps that aren't.

thanks so much for your lengthy answer...I'll try to stay focused on the basics.

toeless slutz

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hehehe.
But really, I've been trying to do single walleys, and they are so hard! I'm scared I'm going to fall and crack my head open.

Joesitz said:

I'd like to see Stephane do a quad or triple Wally.

Joe

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Tonia Kwiatkowski used to do a triple toe wally in some of her pro-am competitive numbers

Wally vs. Toe

What is the differance between a toe and a toe wally? Are they basically the same jump, or all they counted as two seperate jumps? How does this fall within the COP? Thanks!

Arianne

Oh, sorry! I didn't realize this subject was already under discussion! Sorry!

Arianne

I've seen skaters at practice, hop from a back inside on one foot to a back inside on the other foot and then back to the original back inside edge and then take off and do a single wally. With music it looks great. I'd love to see a double or triple.. Cheers for Kwiatkowski for the triple toe wally but it is easier with the toe off. Jumps are easier, imo, with toe offs. Edge jumps are harder.

Joe

I once watched a CCW skater trying to teach a CW skater how to do a walley. She got so confused and ended up doing a one-foot salchow in her wrong direction instead.

These were junior-level skaters who already had all their doubles (well, one of them had a double axel, the other didn't), and had passed their junior or senior MITF and at least 6th figure tests at the time.

So even advanced skaters who can do all the advanced turns can be confused by these unusual and more complicated jump takeoffs, especially when you throw the opposite rotational preference into the mix.

Cheers for Kwiatkowski for the triple toe wally but it is easier with the toe off.

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A toe wally of any kind is only slightly more difficult than a toe loop. The only difference is the entrance: a toe wally goes in like a flip, then the skater changes feet and does a toe loop. A toe loop is just a toe loop.
Neither one is very hard to do or rare.

The Wally is one of my favorite jumps and yes a Wally is harder to exectue because it is done from an edge. This is a great jump for Kurt Browning because he is so good at footwork and his ability to jump "out of nowhere." It's a lovely jump and is often quite unexpected. Here is a technical explanation of both the Wally and the toe Wally.

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_walley.htm

Ladskater said:

The Wally is one of my favorite jumps and yes a Wally is harder to exectue because it is done from an edge. This is a great jump for Kurt Browning because he is so good at footwork and his ability to jump "out of nowhere." It's a lovely jump and is often quite unexpected. Here is a technical explanation of both the Wally and the toe Wally.

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_walley.htm

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Thanks for the url...i haven't visited this site in a long time; last time, it didn't have videos...this is cool; and the wally is really really awesome! I can totally see why Joe loves it.