Two 3Zs and two 3Fs will become the new standard

apache88 · Mar 28, 2005

In order to maximize the points for jumps, the minimum requirement is 2 triple lutzes and 2 triple flips. How many attempted them besides Sasha and Michelle? Maybe not many in the last Worlds but this jump layout will become the new standard in future the way 2 lutzes were in the mid 90s onwards, IMHO. There is no better way to maximize the points for a 6-triple program.

Good for Michelle, thank god her 3f is much stronger than her 3l. Her 3f was even awarded 0.71 GOE and her 3l would have probably been downgraded or given minus GOE had she attempted it. Besides the 3f is worth more than the 3lp in base points. So it was a smart choice after all to leave out the individual 3l completely. Her 3lp would be executed only in a 3/3 for the 7 jumping passes. Looking back at the reports of her practising the 3t/3l prior to 2005 Worlds, it all makes sense to me now.

Mathman · Mar 28, 2005

There is, however, some speculation that the judges will award lower scores in the "skating skills" component to skaters who do not present the full complement of jumps.

I totally agree that the skaters with the biggest advantage will be those who can do a triple something/triple loop in combination. I think Slutskaya is the only one doing this now.

I was looking again at the scores for the Worlds short program. Carolina Kostner won the technical part, entirely on the fact that she was the only one of the top ladies that did a triple-triple (she got 10.5 points, including GOE, for that one element alone). Since the only thing that matters is your total points for the whole shebang, the combination in the short is about the only way to squeeze an extra triple into your total program(s).

Very risky, though. Fumie fell on her combo jump and it took her completely out of the competition, even though both her short and her long were excellent otherwise.

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 28, 2005

And don't forget the Sport is still a subjective sport. I believe if a skater does a quad, his mark for an ordinary camel spin gets more credit than it deserves subjectively. Judges are human.

Joe

Mathman · Mar 28, 2005

Good point again, Joe. In the SP, after Carolina hit her triple/triple she got positive GOEs on every element that she did afterward.

Fossi · Mar 28, 2005

I don't think it's fair to mark down a skaters score for not having all jumps. Why aren't they marking down for over doing beilmans then?

jeff goldblum · Mar 28, 2005

Mathman said:
I totally agree that the skaters with the biggest advantage will be those who can do a triple something/triple loop in combination. I think Slutskaya is the only one doing this now.

Mathman

Don't forget Miki Ando. I still can't believe her 3Lz-3L was downgraded in the long, unless the judges are taking of for pre-rotation too.

mzheng · Mar 28, 2005

Fossi said:
I don't think it's fair to mark down a skaters score for not having all jumps. Why aren't they marking down for over doing beilmans then?

While I don't think it's fair to mark down a skater's score for not having all jumps, but I do think a single skater landed all different type triples (for lady 5 diff triples and a 2axel, for man 6 diff treiples) should get reward with bonus points. Also bonus points for complete all planned elements in LP cleanly.

Also manditory deduction to missing required elements in SP.
Deduction for over using same positions in one program. Well not necessary the deductions but a lower choreograph marks should apply.

The purpose is to encourage the skater developing a well belanced program, with veriaty movements on ice, but at the same time within their skating ability to skate program cleanly. Jeffery's program was difficult and beautyful but obviously he couldn't handle it when the pressure was on. While he won silver fair and sauare, but it was very disturb to see no man on podium skated a clean program. Only one lady on podium skated a clean program.

apache88 · Mar 28, 2005

Mathman:
There is, however, some speculation that the judges will award lower scores in the "skating skills" component to skaters who do not present the full complement of jumps.

I can't deny that it can happen. Now, why can't the judges come forth and explain if skaters can perform a full repertoire of jumps, the PCS can be positively impacted. They should also explain exactly how much the PCS can be increased. Why so secretive and cause unnecessary speculation of corrupt judging?

Joesitz:
And don't forget the Sport is still a subjective sport. I believe if a skater does a quad, his mark for an ordinary camel spin gets more credit than it deserves subjectively. Judges are human.

Again, I can't deny that it can happen. Again, why can't the judges explain that too?

Mathman and Joe, you two make some valid points there which I can't refute. However, I find it frustrating about all this unspoken rule from the judges.

icenut84 · Apr 2, 2005

mzheng said:
While I don't think it's fair to mark down a skater's score for not having all jumps, but I do think a single skater landed all different type triples (for lady 5 diff triples and a 2axel, for man 6 diff treiples) should get reward with bonus points. Also bonus points for complete all planned elements in LP cleanly.

I agree there could be some kind of bonus for completing all types of jump, like you said. I'm not sure it could work re: bonus points for all planned elements in the LP done cleanly though - "clean" has different interpretations, so there could be issues there, and also what if a skater changes his/her programme as they're performing it? Take Irina, for instance. She skated her elements cleanly at Worlds, but IIRC changed the first combo - it was planned as a 3lutz2loop, but she went for the 3lutz3loop and nailed it. It'd have to take situations like that into account, not just relying on what was "planned" on the sheet. Like if a skater plans a 3/3 but in the end performs a clean 3/2, or changes a jump completely to another one, again done cleanly, they shouldn't be penalised for that.

Take this situation - skater A "plans" a 3/2, and performs it cleanly. Skater B "plans" a 3/3 but instead performs a clean 3/2. In essence, they've skated exactly the same jump, but skater A gets a bonus for what was put on the paper. It could happen like that, and it wouldn't be fair.

gezando · Apr 2, 2005

apache88 said:
In order to maximize the points for jumps, the minimum requirement is 2 triple lutzes and 2 triple flips.

only if they have true lutz and flips and not flutz and lips

thisthingcalledlove · Apr 2, 2005

gezando said:
only ig they have true lutz and flips and not flutz and lips

So a typical program will be:

Triple Loop
Triple Sal
Triple Toe
Four Triple Flips

Mathman · Apr 2, 2005

thisthingcalledlove said:
So a typical program will be:

Triple Loop
Triple Sal
Triple Toe
Four Triple Flips

JunJohn21 · Apr 2, 2005

apache88 said:
In order to maximize the points for jumps, the minimum requirement is 2 triple lutzes and 2 triple flips. How many attempted them besides Sasha and Michelle? Maybe not many in the last Worlds but this jump layout will become the new standard in future the way 2 lutzes were in the mid 90s onwards, IMHO. There is no better way to maximize the points for a 6-triple program.

Just want to point out that at Worlds, Sasha attempted 2 triple flips and two triple salchows and one triple flutz. The only skaters I remember who did two flips and two lutzes were Michelle, Fumie, and Elena Liashenko.

thisthingcalledlove · Apr 2, 2005

JunJohn21 said:
Just want to point out that at Worlds, Sasha attempted 2 triple flips and two triple salchows and one triple flutz. The only skaters I remember who did two flips and two lutzes were Michelle, Fumie, and Elena Liashenko.

How would Sarah Hughes handle this, when and if she comes back?

Triple Sal/Triple Loop
Triple Toe/Triple Loop
Triple Flip/Dbl Toe
Triple Flip
Double Axel
Triple Toe/Dbl Toe?

ks777 · Apr 3, 2005

thisthingcalledlove said:
How would Sarah Hughes handle this, when and if she comes back?

Triple Sal/Triple Loop
Triple Toe/Triple Loop
Triple Flip/Dbl Toe
Triple Flip
Double Axel
Triple Toe/Dbl Toe?

more like
double sal/double loop
double toe/double loop
double flip/single toe
double lutz(she can probably do this without flutzing, I hope)
single axel

Two 3Zs and two 3Fs will become the new standard

apache88

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Fossi

jeff goldblum

mzheng

apache88

icenut84

gezando

thisthingcalledlove

Mathman

JunJohn21

thisthingcalledlove

ks777

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