Are changing role models affecting FS, other sports, life?
- Thread starter Doggygirl
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When I first started teaching, it was almost unheard of for a male teacher to teach anything lower than 4th grade, 3rd grade was a stretch. Now at my school we have three male third grade teachers, one in second, and one in Kindergarten. There's even a male in the pre-school at my school site......42
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- Jun 21, 2003
That's a cool trend, Show.:agree:
About opportunities for engineers in the U.S., here are some official statistics from the U.S. Department of Labor. In 2002 there were about 1.5 million engineering jobs in the United States.
"Overall engineering employment is expected to grow more slowly than the average for all occupations over the 2002-12 period. Engineers tend to be concentrated in slow-growing manufacturing industries, a factor which tends to hold down their employment growth. Also, many employers are increasing their use of engineering services performed in other countries. Despite this, overall job opportunities in engineering are expected to be good because the number of engineering graduates should be in rough balance with the number of job openings over this period. Expected changes in employment and, thus, job opportunities vary by specialty. Projections range from a decline in employment of mining and geological engineers, petroleum engineers, and nuclear engineers to much faster than average growth among environmental engineers."
About women getting advanced degrees in science and engineering, according to this article, the number of PhDs granted in these disciplines is down overall to a ten year low. However, the percentage of women is on the rise. In 2002, 37.3% of the PhDs awarded in the U.S. in science, mathematics and engineering were earned by women.
BTW, 37% went to "first generation college students" -- i.e., to students neither of whose parents graduated from college.
38% went to non-U.S. citizens. This percentage will go down drastically in the next few years because homeland security policies following the 9-11 attacks have created visa problems for students from abroad. This is a serious problem because there just aren't enough U.S. students interested in graduate study to fill all the positions. But just this last week there were announcements that these security measures were being relaxed, so there will again be an increase in non-U.S. citizens earning PhDs from American Universities in another four or five years.
MM
About opportunities for engineers in the U.S., here are some official statistics from the U.S. Department of Labor. In 2002 there were about 1.5 million engineering jobs in the United States.
"Overall engineering employment is expected to grow more slowly than the average for all occupations over the 2002-12 period. Engineers tend to be concentrated in slow-growing manufacturing industries, a factor which tends to hold down their employment growth. Also, many employers are increasing their use of engineering services performed in other countries. Despite this, overall job opportunities in engineering are expected to be good because the number of engineering graduates should be in rough balance with the number of job openings over this period. Expected changes in employment and, thus, job opportunities vary by specialty. Projections range from a decline in employment of mining and geological engineers, petroleum engineers, and nuclear engineers to much faster than average growth among environmental engineers."
About women getting advanced degrees in science and engineering, according to this article, the number of PhDs granted in these disciplines is down overall to a ten year low. However, the percentage of women is on the rise. In 2002, 37.3% of the PhDs awarded in the U.S. in science, mathematics and engineering were earned by women.
BTW, 37% went to "first generation college students" -- i.e., to students neither of whose parents graduated from college.
38% went to non-U.S. citizens. This percentage will go down drastically in the next few years because homeland security policies following the 9-11 attacks have created visa problems for students from abroad. This is a serious problem because there just aren't enough U.S. students interested in graduate study to fill all the positions. But just this last week there were announcements that these security measures were being relaxed, so there will again be an increase in non-U.S. citizens earning PhDs from American Universities in another four or five years.
MM
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- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
Great topic!
I think the shortage of women in math and engineering in the US is a combination of social factors and what Linny is talking about. Let's say for the sake of the argument that if all school children had exactly the same social pressures, education, opportunities, etc. the ration of men to women in those fields would be 60 to 40. However, in the US the picture is far more skewed. The problem is that engineers are considered "geeks", they are perceived as people with "no life". For very obvious reasons, girls are far more susceptible to this pressure than boys; this is largely due to how a society views a single man (perhaps he is just a loner) vs. how it views a single woman (often as a looser). It than becomes a self fulfilling prophesy, since the girls who go into those fields are largely those who put more stock into careers, and less into personal life.
I am certainly speaking from experience here. It took me a long time to accept that I was good at abstract thinking required by engineering. Mind you, while I lived in Russia I never had those reservations, as my mother, who has always been very proud of being an engineer and a mathematician (she taught me "binary" when I was 5), is one of the most stylish, classy ladies you'd ever meet; being engineer certainly never stopped her from caring about art, literature, or even fashion! In the US, though, the culture did effect me enough to believe that if I followed that path I, too, would turn into someone attached to their computer and not caring about anything else. Luckily, I had enough people around me to help me see it.
Now, a software engineer, I try to help out by participating in programs that help introduce high school girls to careers in medicine, science, and engineering. Most of them already know they can do it; the main message I try to pass across to them is "you can be this, and still have all the social life you want".
I think the shortage of women in math and engineering in the US is a combination of social factors and what Linny is talking about. Let's say for the sake of the argument that if all school children had exactly the same social pressures, education, opportunities, etc. the ration of men to women in those fields would be 60 to 40. However, in the US the picture is far more skewed. The problem is that engineers are considered "geeks", they are perceived as people with "no life". For very obvious reasons, girls are far more susceptible to this pressure than boys; this is largely due to how a society views a single man (perhaps he is just a loner) vs. how it views a single woman (often as a looser). It than becomes a self fulfilling prophesy, since the girls who go into those fields are largely those who put more stock into careers, and less into personal life.
I am certainly speaking from experience here. It took me a long time to accept that I was good at abstract thinking required by engineering. Mind you, while I lived in Russia I never had those reservations, as my mother, who has always been very proud of being an engineer and a mathematician (she taught me "binary" when I was 5), is one of the most stylish, classy ladies you'd ever meet; being engineer certainly never stopped her from caring about art, literature, or even fashion! In the US, though, the culture did effect me enough to believe that if I followed that path I, too, would turn into someone attached to their computer and not caring about anything else. Luckily, I had enough people around me to help me see it.
Now, a software engineer, I try to help out by participating in programs that help introduce high school girls to careers in medicine, science, and engineering. Most of them already know they can do it; the main message I try to pass across to them is "you can be this, and still have all the social life you want".
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- Dec 8, 2004
I agree with others that social factors are continuing to limit women in traditionally male careers. This is a big reason that I think it is time for a female President of the United States. I think that would send a great message to those teaching and mentoring the next generation not to send negative messages about girls' potential.
Maria Schriver was on the View talking about her mother, Eunice Kennedy Shriver, and Barbara Walters brought up that Eunice had a better mind for politics than her brothers, but the boys got the encouragement that they could be President someday and Eunice was trained to be the wife of a politician. This made me wonder if Maria is considering running for office herself. I would love to see her, Hillary, Condi, and Elizabeth Dole in the primaries in 2008.
Note to soogar: I love your new avatar. I miss Rory but Li needs support going into the Olympics.
Maria Schriver was on the View talking about her mother, Eunice Kennedy Shriver, and Barbara Walters brought up that Eunice had a better mind for politics than her brothers, but the boys got the encouragement that they could be President someday and Eunice was trained to be the wife of a politician. This made me wonder if Maria is considering running for office herself. I would love to see her, Hillary, Condi, and Elizabeth Dole in the primaries in 2008.
Note to soogar: I love your new avatar. I miss Rory but Li needs support going into the Olympics.
Ptchika:
I hate to say it but a lot of the girls who go into the hard sciences (Physics, Mathmatics) and the "harder" engineering fields like electrical are "geeks". In softer engineering (like Biomedical and Chemical) the girls were fairly fashionable and "normal" looking. The girls who went into the hardcore engineering majors and sciences usually had mismatched clothes and were really quiet (or were from mainland China). You have a lot of dorky guys in those fields as well so it could just be that those fields attract dorks in general.
As for ladies in grad school, I remember when I went to school, all of the TA's in engineering and mathmatics were from foreign countries (most of them were male with a few female). I was friends with a few of my TA's and I was told that professors don't want to work with American students b/c they aren't as educated as the foreign students (better math curriculum etc). Keep in mind that to pursue a grad degree like a PhD, a student has to find a professor who is willing to work with him/her on a research project. I think it's a double strike against women that not only are they not encouraged to go into the hard sciences but many professors will not work with them b/c Americans aren't perceived as having the appropriate academic background despite completing a major in that subject.
Also getting a PhD is a huge time commitment. Usually it takes 5-6 years total (Phd and Masters) but a lot of times it runs over that time. So many things can go wrong with your research project and lots of people drop out without completing the degree b/c of lack of funding. Usually PhD students get about $15,000-$17,000 a year for living costs (rarely more, sometimes less) and the school provides tuition. If you encounter problems with your advisor or research, you can wind up working until your 30s just to get that degree.. Most people want to get married and have a job by that time. Also the lure of private industry causes a lot of students to leave before finishing their degrees. An undergraduate degree in engineering coupled with a masters usually gets a few nice offers which beat the meager grant money that grad students have to live on.
Even after getting the PhD, there's very small chance that the person will get a job in an university teaching. Most PhD's want to research and work at a university and there are very few openings and the competition is steep. There are some fields like English and foreign language where people are doing their research for the sheer love of the topic and know that there will be no academic job in the future. Unless there's real passion for research and dedication, most students who are good at the sciences will go into medicine or law.
I hate to say it but a lot of the girls who go into the hard sciences (Physics, Mathmatics) and the "harder" engineering fields like electrical are "geeks". In softer engineering (like Biomedical and Chemical) the girls were fairly fashionable and "normal" looking. The girls who went into the hardcore engineering majors and sciences usually had mismatched clothes and were really quiet (or were from mainland China). You have a lot of dorky guys in those fields as well so it could just be that those fields attract dorks in general.
As for ladies in grad school, I remember when I went to school, all of the TA's in engineering and mathmatics were from foreign countries (most of them were male with a few female). I was friends with a few of my TA's and I was told that professors don't want to work with American students b/c they aren't as educated as the foreign students (better math curriculum etc). Keep in mind that to pursue a grad degree like a PhD, a student has to find a professor who is willing to work with him/her on a research project. I think it's a double strike against women that not only are they not encouraged to go into the hard sciences but many professors will not work with them b/c Americans aren't perceived as having the appropriate academic background despite completing a major in that subject.
Also getting a PhD is a huge time commitment. Usually it takes 5-6 years total (Phd and Masters) but a lot of times it runs over that time. So many things can go wrong with your research project and lots of people drop out without completing the degree b/c of lack of funding. Usually PhD students get about $15,000-$17,000 a year for living costs (rarely more, sometimes less) and the school provides tuition. If you encounter problems with your advisor or research, you can wind up working until your 30s just to get that degree.. Most people want to get married and have a job by that time. Also the lure of private industry causes a lot of students to leave before finishing their degrees. An undergraduate degree in engineering coupled with a masters usually gets a few nice offers which beat the meager grant money that grad students have to live on.
Even after getting the PhD, there's very small chance that the person will get a job in an university teaching. Most PhD's want to research and work at a university and there are very few openings and the competition is steep. There are some fields like English and foreign language where people are doing their research for the sheer love of the topic and know that there will be no academic job in the future. Unless there's real passion for research and dedication, most students who are good at the sciences will go into medicine or law.
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- Jul 28, 2003
Not sure what the point is here that you are trying to make, but no figure skating does not depend on role models to attract media attention or role models to attract people to the sport; and it's always been dominated by we females. I skated because I love it. That is the reply you would get from just about every figure skater out there - young and old. Even we retired skaters still love to get out there and stroke around the ice. We watch the compeitons for the same reason - love of figure skating.
FS Phenomenon
And the social-biologists who note a female's hard wiring for social connection don't really explain why females are attracted to figure skating this is largely a solitary sport.
My own sport - horse riding, specifically dressage - is overwhelmingly females. It is also a solitary sport (except, naturally, for the wonderful companionship of your equine friend).
These two examples seem run counter to what the researchers say, don't they?
Linny
And the social-biologists who note a female's hard wiring for social connection don't really explain why females are attracted to figure skating this is largely a solitary sport.
My own sport - horse riding, specifically dressage - is overwhelmingly females. It is also a solitary sport (except, naturally, for the wonderful companionship of your equine friend).
These two examples seem run counter to what the researchers say, don't they?
Linny
I'll agree with this to some extent. I'm in school now, and most of my TAs are/have been from foreign countries (Argentina, China, somewhere in Europe), but the majority of them are female. This doesn't necessarily represent the total population of TAs, though. I'm a freshman taking introductory classes which I'm sure are assigned to newer grad students.
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- Jul 28, 2003
I agree with you. It's just a question of cause and effect. I believe that this is a self fulifilling prophesy: girls see who is in the field now, and don't want to be like that. Therefore, the next generation is even more "geeky", etc.soogar said:
I think the fact that other countries have more women in those fields that the US does speaks volumes about issues such as social pressure.
Ptichka said:
I wonder what these other countries think about their engineers, For example, over thirty years ago (when I was young), the most prestigious occupation was that of "physician" -- an overwhelmingly male profession in the U.S. At that time, a large portion of doctors in the former-Soviet Union were women -- but the most prestigious profession in that country wasn't medicine, but engineering -- and the engineers at that time were overwhelmingly male. In other words, the issue wasn't the number of women in any given profession, but the fact that the most prestigious professions in a country are dominated by men.
I agree to certain degree.Ptichka said:
I would think most of these RA and TA in engineering sooga mentioned were from the countries where the most prestigious professions were hard core engineering, as attyfan pointed.
Take China for example, whose education system until late 80's still ran mostly as Soviet Union fashion. Back when I was in school, most emphasizing was on the basic science courses (math, physics, chemestry,...) through mid/high schools. The top students in high schools or the ones got highest scores in National College Addmittion test, went to these majores in top Universities. I think this contributed to the RA/TAs that Sooga saw in colledges. In my days over 90% graduates in physics from these top Universities found their way to the Universities in States took up RA/TA positions to finiance their studies here. Later I heard these positions were largely replaced by students from pre Soviet Union countries.
So it was both 'social pressure' and/or 'prestigious professions' driving women in china to persuate the careers in these hardcore engineering areas if they wanted the social 'recognation' of their successful.
In china back in those days, the goverment really enforce the policy of 'men and women are equal' in working place and in social life. They were assigned to the same jobs by the same qualifications, got the same pay, etc. in work. And since couple were in the same positions financially, women usually had more to say in family affairs. lol.
The basic science courses (math, physics, chemestry) they taught in colledge undergrate and master degree are more advanced in China than in US. Most physics courses taught in master degree in US equivelant to the 3rd and 4th years college courses they taught in China.... But a Ph D. here in US is more difficult than what in China. Especially those research topics in Ph D. are far more advanced here.
Overall, I like US education better than China. More open, diversity, wide demension knowledges, populational (the college level education almost accessable to every one who wants to be there), etc. it more focus on building the personalities and life time skills which help one meshing into the sociaty instead of forcing every one into one demission as if they were all future scientists (the way I saw china's education system back then).
But now I heard there are a lot changes in college educations these days in china, more US style than it was Soviet Union style. But for the lower level schools (primary, mid and high) things mostly stay the same....And in china it used to be (and still is I believe) very competetive to get into the colleges, even an average college.
Men go grey (men have more grey matter), women go white (women have more white matter). Studies shows that when men and women have the same IQ solve science problems with different parts of their brains.
I believe (may not be scientifically proven) that anyone can do anything if they work hard enough
I believe (may not be scientifically proven) that anyone can do anything if they work hard enough
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- Jul 28, 2003
Unfortunately, that just isn't so. I do believe that there is a level to which anyone can rise with enough work, but beyond that it becomes simply impossible for most. I have several friends working on their Artificial Intelligence PhDs at MIT. When I see them talk, I see that there is a certain level past which only a one or two of them can reach - the others are just left behind (of course, even the level they can all reach is far beyond what most people can do).gezando said:
Ptichka said:
To bring the topic back to skating . . .
I think that anyone who starts skating as a child or young adult with reasonable physical fitness has the potential to land a double lutz someday, with enough practice and good coaching, although most people don't have the motivation or the time and money to invest the hours every week of practice for several years to get that far.
Double axels and triple jumps, though, not to mention quads, also take real talent and a favorable body type in addition to the hard work.
Favorable body type?
That's actually odd. I tend to think of slender MK versus powerful IS... and while they are both extremely fit, their body types are decidely different.
Or Mike Weiss versus Tim Goebel... also very different body types.
Perhaps it's less body type and more level of fitness?
This speaks a lot to changing role models: do young girls think they have to be extremely slim to have success as figure skaters? Or do they look at clips of Midori Ito and say "Hey, I can do that, too?"
Linny
That's actually odd. I tend to think of slender MK versus powerful IS... and while they are both extremely fit, their body types are decidely different.
Or Mike Weiss versus Tim Goebel... also very different body types.
Perhaps it's less body type and more level of fitness?
This speaks a lot to changing role models: do young girls think they have to be extremely slim to have success as figure skaters? Or do they look at clips of Midori Ito and say "Hey, I can do that, too?"
Linny
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Well, yes, but you seem to be putting some sort of negative connotation on the words "dork" and "geek." Some of my best friends are dorks and geeks. I used to be one myself until I got cool. (Now I am a dweeb.)soogar said:
Linny, that's a good point about body type. As a matter of fact, it seems to me that the compact fire-plug type (the Mary Lou Retten model) ought be be perfect for the sport. Bebe Liang, Surya Bonaly, Tonya Harding and Elvis Stojko are like that -- all powerful jumpers. Also, I would think the physics of spinning would work against a slender skater (think of how a top is shaped -- you can't spin a pencil on its end).
The original topic of this thread was whether figure skating is evolving away from the idea of pretty little girls in frilly costumes and toward serious athletic endeavor, in pace with changes in how women's roles are perceived in the larger society. I think maybe it is.
Mathman
Ptichka said:
I agree with the self-fulfilling prophecy idea- also, while some of us may have a SLIGHT genetic tendency to gravitate or do well in a certain field, doesn't mean that the environment doesn't play a role- my sisters and I played with action figures and cars as well as dolls and tea sets. I think that societal pressure DOES cause girls to cave in- the stigma that girls aren't supposed to play video games or computer stuff prevents a lot from doing it- in Japan, video games are popular with both sexes- also, comic books and anime are considered just as normal as anything live-action- they aren't considered dorky there, and again, lots of girls are into them as opposed to Americans, and American girls. I am attending an anime convention, and out of 32 contestants in the Tekken 5 tournament, only my sister and her friend are females. I would enter myself, if I'd had some more time to prepare. On the flip side, in things such as figure skating and theater, guys are pressured not to do thiese, for fear of being stigmatized as gay, regardless of their actual sexuality.
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