Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile? | Page 12 | Golden Skate

Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile?

Linny

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Defense of Marks

What I'd love is for the judges to have the choice to defend their marks. If they felt that a score was merited, then they must have basis for the score. Wouldn't it be marvelous for a GP skater to get feedback from the people qualified to give it? Doesn't help for Peggy to say she didn't like the choreo, or DB to say he didn't like the leg position... really must know from the judges if choreo needs to be improved or leg position needs to be changed...

But, alas, the judges have to wear their masks.

Linny
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Joesitz said:
Rgirl - I've always thought of Sasha as trying too hard to be a balerina on ice and it came across as ballet by the numbers. JMO. However, in Moscow, she skated more to the feel of the music than showing off her flexibility. I liked that.

Your point about her working more as a power skater, is well taken. I think I would like sasha to drop that "porcelain" quality and get into the Denise Bielman style which I always thought of being "feminine" power with the accent on feminine.

I really think Sasha has a crack at the gold in the Olys but she is up against THE power skater of recent times.

Joe
I love your point about Sasha trying too hard to be a ballerina on ice with it coming across as ballet by the numbers. IMO, you really hit the nail on the head. I think the problem is that her early coaches saw her line, which they assumed was balletic because the legs and feet had that long stretched tension typical of ballet, and her both straight and flexible back, again typical of ballet, and said, "Oh! She'll be a great ballerina on ice!" But what they failed to do was look at the in-betweens, which is as important to ballet as body line--if not more so in some cases. I also think, though of course I don't know, Sasha wanted/wants to skate as a ballerina, which is too bad because, to use your phrase, "feminine power" in a strong skater can blow the top off an arena, as we saw Michelle do in Washington, DC.

I too wish she'd drop the "porcelain doll" thing, which she got tagged with back in 2000, I think. Anyway, I remember Peggy Fleming saying that's what she was known as at the 2000 Nationals. When she was a tiny prepubescent 15-year-old, it fit. But over the next two years when she packed on some much needed muscle and her skating changed to refect it, her skating was more like "G.I. Jane."


Joesitz said:
The wuzrobbed attitude is perfectly natural among some fans. It came to a head in SLC with the fans of, as well as the not so fans of S&P, who agreed that they were the best THAT NIGHT! not necessarily the best team.. I did not read one item against B&S who all agreed are a beautiful Pairs team but they did not skate a clean program THAT NIGHT!
Now, Joe. Although of course you're entitled to go there, I'm sure not only you, but nobody else, especially Mathman ;) wants me to dig up my "War and Pars" post for all to see. Let's just say that I strongly disagree that S&P were the best that night, Anton's flub on the side-by-side triple jumps or not. It's like comparing Van Gogh's orginal "Sunflowers" to Gaugain's "Sunflowers" that he painted as an ode to Van Gogh after his death. Two arguably equally great painters, but with these two particular painings, one could argue that Van Gogh was "sloppy" and simply piled yellow on top of yellow, whereas Gaugain had mastered his technique. But when you compare the density and complexity of Van Gogh, plus the artistic quantum leap of Van Gogh doing a paining all in shades of yellow against Gaugain's simple repetition of everything he'd done in his Tahiti paintings, you can see why Van Gogh's work captured the sheer emotional impact Van Gogh's "Sunflowers" around the world. No matter how much technique and feeling Gaugain put into his "Sunflowers" as a tribute to Van Gogh, it's now contest.

Okay, so are we on schedule to argure S&P vs. B&S at the '02 Olympics again in another four years? Always good fun. :rock:

Rgirl
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Question For Mathman

Hey, Mathman,
Given all the pros and cons of the OBO and NJS judging systems, it you were tied to a chair with a big mean guy with straight razors at your thumbs, ready to cut them off at Speedy's orders, which would you say is the better system is you could only choose from the two right now? Forget any possible future improvments. You can only choose between OBO and NJS. If you don't, the big mean guy cuts off your thumbs. Nothing personal. I'd hate to see you lose even one pinkie.

So what's your choice?

Rgirl
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Mathman said:
John Nicks jokes that Sasha is a lot easier to work with this time around, now that he (Nicks) is older. At 76, he tells Sasha what to do but the next day he can't remember what he told her, so he doesn't know if she did it or not.:laugh:

Mathman
I know how Nicks feels. I can't remember what I did five minutes ago and I'm only 49. Must have been all those rock concerts in my youth :rock:

R--um--????
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Rgirl - Let's agree that B&S are the better of the two teams (although in pro skating, I am not so sure), but we are definitely disagreeing on 'the best THAT night". :eek:hwell:

Unfortunately, the best do not always win and that's everyone's opinion.

Michelle never won an Oly gold nor did she deserve to but, imo, she has been and still is the best Ladies figure skater ever. :rock: And, horrors, I am doubting she'll even get a medal this Olys but she will still be the best ever for me. :love:

Joe
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Rgirl said:
I love your point about Sasha trying too hard to be a ballerina on ice with it coming across as ballet by the numbers. IMO, you really hit the nail on the head. I think the problem is that her early coaches saw her line, which they assumed was balletic because the legs and feet had that long stretched tension typical of ballet, and her both straight and flexible back, again typical of ballet, and said, "Oh! She'll be a great ballerina on ice!" But what they failed to do was look at the in-betweens, which is as important to ballet as body line--if not more so in some cases. I also think, though of course I don't know, Sasha wanted/wants to skate as a ballerina, which is too bad because, to use your phrase, "feminine power" in a strong skater can blow the top off an arena, as we saw Michelle do in Washington, DC.

I too wish she'd drop the "porcelain doll" thing, which she got tagged with back in 2000, I think. Anyway, I remember Peggy Fleming saying that's what she was known as at the 2000 Nationals. When she was a tiny prepubescent 15-year-old, it fit. But over the next two years when she packed on some much needed muscle and her skating changed to refect it, her skating was more like "G.I. Jane."


Now, Joe. Although of course you're entitled to go there, I'm sure not only you, but nobody else, especially Mathman ;) wants me to dig up my "War and Pars" post for all to see. Let's just say that I strongly disagree that S&P were the best that night, Anton's flub on the side-by-side triple jumps or not. It's like comparing Van Gogh's orginal "Sunflowers" to Gaugain's "Sunflowers" that he painted as an ode to Van Gogh after his death. Two arguably equally great painters, but with these two particular painings, one could argue that Van Gogh was "sloppy" and simply piled yellow on top of yellow, whereas Gaugain had mastered his technique. But when you compare the density and complexity of Van Gogh, plus the artistic quantum leap of Van Gogh doing a paining all in shades of yellow against Gaugain's simple repetition of everything he'd done in his Tahiti paintings, you can see why Van Gogh's work captured the sheer emotional impact Van Gogh's "Sunflowers" around the world. No matter how much technique and feeling Gaugain put into his "Sunflowers" as a tribute to Van Gogh, it's now contest.

Okay, so are we on schedule to argure S&P vs. B&S at the '02 Olympics again in another four years? Always good fun. :rock:

Rgirl

I don't know much at all about ballet...but I feel like I'm learning little bits here and there from Joe these days, and learning from him and others about the ballet - fs comparisons too...I guess I always just assumed that Sasha was a 'ballerina on ice' for those same reasons of extension/line/toe point...but am really liking the ideas here that suggest that may not suit her so much....but the more gymnastic...punched....POWER may. cool ideas.

NOT to stir up the waters...but boy would I love to read that comparison of pairs....since I'm relataively new on this board I haven't read that one (oh, and i'm learning about art too...gosh, this board is really informative...seriously).

Also, Rgirl, did you ever analyze 99 worlds for pairs....I didn't see the short programs and haven't seen the scoring (btw, where does one find old scores?), but I would love to hear your take on the top two teams long programs if you ever considered that one...just from the little you said of B/S and S/P I just bet you have a great take on B/S - S/Z too.
 

kyla2

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Please People

To expect Sasha to be an actual ballerina on the ice is a bit much don't you all think??? But she comes as close to it as is humanly possible while still standing up on a blade. Her line and extension are exquisite and should not be undervalued. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Give this girl a break. I fear the skating God is going to get really p****d off and Sasha will win the Olympics, at Michelle's expense, because you all are so relentlessly merciless where Sasha is concerned.

I also think B & S should have won the Olympics over S & P, hands down. That little fiasco (thanks to the Canadians) cost Michelle the Olympic gold in my opinion.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
emma said:
I don't know much at all about ballet...but I feel like I'm learning little bits here and there from Joe these days, and learning from him and others about the ballet - fs comparisons too...I guess I always just assumed that Sasha was a 'ballerina on ice' for those same reasons of extension/line/toe point...but am really liking the ideas here that suggest that may not suit her so much....but the more gymnastic...punched....POWER may. cool ideas.
Emma - Just rent yourself a tape of whatever ballet you would like to watch. I think one showing will get you hooked on ballet.

Figure skating borrows from all forms of dance - not just ballet. There is nothing original in figure skating that isn't a trick in some other form of dance that I know of. The main difference between feet and blades is that one can bend the feet and use it in so many ways. Not so with blades. This is not a put down of figure skating. This is just the way it is, although figure skating has many merits on its own.

I'm not looking for ballet on ice. I get to see many ballets on the stage. I do look for style, grace, and flow on ice with good line of body.

Joe
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Rgirl said:
Hey, Mathman, Given all the pros and cons of the OBO and NJS judging systems, it you were tied to a chair with a big mean guy with straight razors at your thumbs, ready to cut them off at Speedy's orders, which would you say is the better system is you could only choose from the two right now? Forget any possible future improvments. You can only choose between OBO and NJS.
I would give a toenail if they dropped the random draw and just counted the scores from all twelve of the judges (still trimming the mean, however). The random draw is just silly. It does not even contribute to Speedy's goal of keeping the judges annonymous, much less to the stated goal of making judging coalitions more difficult to sustain. (And under point total judging there is no virtue to having an odd number of judges.)

Well, that just got me a scowl from the big mean guy. Wait, wait, first I have to consult the Michelle-o-meter. Michelle says, "The 6.0 system made me; I can't quite seem to get the hang of this new-fangled thing..."

No, no, I'm not stalling. Help! help!

OK, the NJS.

Mathman :yes:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
kyla2 said:
That little fiasco (thanks to the Canadians) cost Michelle the Olympic gold in my opinion.
I know, I know! The Canadian federation has always been against Michelle. Just look at the judges' scores over the years, back in the days when the judges were indentified by nationality. Then they cheated and let Josee Chiounard :love: win the Canadian Open pro-am in 1999, even though she fell on her triple Lutz while Michelle skating cleanly. Plus, the Canadian federation invented the New Judging System, Michelle's Achilles heel.

To quote Cartman, "What would Brian Boitano do?"

MM:)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
emma said:
Not to stir up the waters...but boy would I love to read that comparison of pairs....since I'm relataively new on this board I haven't read that one (oh, and i'm learning about art too...gosh, this board is really informative...seriously).
Emma, that was indeed an Rgirl classic. Ah yes, I remember it well. (A tenor sang...) I was brand new to Golden Skate at the time and I thought of figure skating boards as just places to go to gush over whoever you thought was pretty.

After the big uproar in Salt Lake City, with everyone all het up by the televison announcers about how Sale and Pelletier were robbed by the crooked judges, Rgirl was the first to come on with a thoughtful, balanced and exquisitely detailed analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of both performances. It got me hooked on this board. (And the rest is history, LOL.)

Of course, Rgirl's next monster analysis was all about why Michelle's skating sucked up until 2003. Oh, well, nobody's perfect (to quote Joe E. Brown).

Mathman
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Mathman said:
Of course, Rgirl's next monster analysis was all about why Michelle's skating sucked up until 2003. Oh, well, nobody's perfect (to quote Joe E. Brown).

Mathman

LOL!!!! But seriously, I really like that kind of analysis because even if my heart wants a different result or opinion, I learn a lot from it.

Joesitz: the only ballet I've ever seen is the Nutcracker (as a child, and i loved it then) and that was years ago...I will add it to my 'to do' list...and look forward to it. But I fear it might be a while...I've had 'go to an Opera' on the list for years...in the meantime, thanks for the informative posts.

Kyla:
"To expect Sasha to be an actual ballerina on the ice is a bit much don't you all think??? But she comes as close to it as is humanly possible while still standing up on a blade. Her line and extension are exquisite and should not be undervalued. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Give this girl a break. I fear the skating God is going to get really p****d off and Sasha will win the Olympics, at Michelle's expense, because you all are so relentlessly merciless where Sasha is concerned"

I hope you understand that I don't EXPECT Sasha to be ANYTHING (by that I mean I'm not expecting her to be a ballerina, or be perfect, or be xyz)...her line, posture, are extension are absolutely breath taking to me, and I have said many time that that is not just a 'freaky innate ability'...that her extension, for example, takes tons of strength and hard work etc....I just don't know much about dance at all, and always just assumed that Sasha's approach - style and program choreography AND element execution were LIKE ballet or balletic...now I'm learning from a few posters that she has many gymnastic like ways of executing her moves and from those post I'm learning to see and describe Sasha in new ways...none of which are negative or even critiques (and i think critique is a good thing/not a negative thing).

I wonder what anyone thinkgs of Oskana Baiul's olympic programs...i remember a lot of people talking about how she uses ballet on ice...and how her exhibition program was designed to be a balletic performance on ice...
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
emma said:
the only ballet I've ever seen is the Nutcracker (as a child, and i loved it then)

As child I loved Nutcracker too. Then came a time I was curious about the choreography of the Chinese dance. It did not matter which ballet company was presenting the production, they had the Chinese dancers moved around with their index fingers pointing towards the ceiling, and skipped around on the stage. I imagine in Tchaikovsky's time that must be the choreographer's impression, but this is the 21 st century.

emma said:
I don't know much at all about ballet...but I feel like I'm learning little bits here and there from Joe these days, and learning from him and others about the ballet - fs comparisons too...I guess I always just assumed that Sasha was a 'ballerina on ice' for those same reasons of extension/line/toe point...but am really liking the ideas here that suggest that may not suit her so much....but the more gymnastic...punched....POWER may. cool ideas.

I don't get the impression that you are expecting Cohen to be a ballerina on ice. I think the hype from some Cohen fans who constantly pound this "ballerina on ice" Peggy said "she has lines" etc is sounding like a relentless commercial we are watching on TV. IMO skating is still a sport, the best overall athlete should win. Dick and Peggy are giving us the "Irina's spiral is so bad, no where near the perfect line achieved by Sasha" Listening to Dick, Peggy and some Cohen fans, ya think Irina's skating must s*ck big time b/c her line is so infereior to Cohen's. Then what ya know, Irina kicked Cohen's b*tt in worlds 05.

I don't think any skaters are ballerina on ice, and they don't have to be to win. IMHO Ota's expressive arms and movement is the loveliest to behold.

:rofl: Theo van Gough vs Paul Gauguin

Art appreciation is subjective, some love Theo V G, others love Paul G.
According to the experts Van Gough probably had bipolar disorder, and AIP. Van Gough loved his alcohol, tobacco, camphor, turpentine and absinthe.
According to the experts Gauguin abused alcohol too. Both contract syphilis through prostitutes. Maybe the painting gods chose to bless Theo's paintings more b/c he was a replacement child? Unlike Gauguin, Van Gough did not knowing spread syphilis to young teenage girls. Maybe Van Gough had more help from more substances. :laugh: :laugh:

IMO the SLC "fiasco" did not "cost Michelle the gold". It was the triple flip. IMHO attributing that to the "Canadians" is so :disagree: :frown: :no: :scratch:
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Rgirl said:
Given all the pros and cons of the OBO and NJS judging systems, ... what's your choice?
I want to add one more thing about the "OBO" system.

Some folks have complained that the New Judging System is too complicated for casual fans relate to. I disagree. The idea that you get so many points for a triple toe loop, a few more for a triple Lutz because it is harder, and if you fall that's a one point deduction -- any sports fan can understand that perfectly well.

The OBO ("one by one") system, on the other hand --I never did get the hang of it. After the marks are given (5.5, 5.7 or whatever), then each skater's scores are compared "one by one" to each of the others'. On the basis of this comparison, you are awarded so many "wins" and so many "loses." But, as I understand it, not all the wins are weighted equally heavily -- it depends on who the other people beat who you got a win over.

After the 2002 Olympics it was widely reported and believed that if American judge Joe Inman had place Michelle second and Irina third, instead of the other way around, then Michelle would have won the 2002 Olympic gold medal over Sarah. This was based on the (almost universal, as it seemed) confusion between the OBO system used for international competitions and the "majority of ordinals" system, which was in place, for instance, for U.S. nationals.

The majority of ordinals system has the virtue that it is easy to understand and apply, but it can result in some strange final placements for skaters in the middle ranges.

Anyway, it wasn't until two years after the event that one of our expert GS posters (Hockeyfan, IIRC) set me straight on that peculiarity of OBO judging.

Mathman

PS. Emma, if "go to an opera" is on your list, the all-time best "first opera" to see is Mozart's Marriage of Figaro. In my wretchedly simple-minded and humble opinion, of course. I don't want to start any fights with the Italophiles! :laugh:
 
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Joined
Aug 3, 2003
gezando said:
...I don't think any skaters are ballerina on ice, and they don't have to be to win. IMHO Ota's expressive arms and movement is the loveliest to behold

:rofl: Theo van Gough vs Paul Gauguin

Art appreciation is subjective, some love Theo V G, others love Paul G.
According to the experts Van Gough probably had bipolar disorder, and AIP. Van Gough loved his alcohol, tobacco, camphor, turpentine and absinthe.
According to the experts Gauguin abused alcohol too. Both contract syphilis through prostitutes. Maybe the painting gods chose to bless Theo's paintings more b/c he was a replacement child? Unlike Gauguin, Van Gough did not knowing spread syphilis to young teenage girls. Maybe Van Gough had more help from more substances. :laugh: :laugh:
First of all, ITA that Ota's arms are truly breathtaking. However, although I don't see what's so funny about Gauguin spreading syphylis to teenage girls and that maybe Van Gogh had "more help from more substances," to each her own.

As for my comparison between Van Gogh and Gauguin, I should have realized that not everyone is familiiar with these painters. Not that it's that big a deal, but the painter is Vincent Van Gogh, not Theo. Theo was Vincent's brother who was crucial in supporting Vincent, even though Vincent never sold a painting in his lifetime. After Theo died six months after Vincent's suicide, Theo's wife took over the role as art dealer for the over 2500 paintings of Vincent, all while she was raising two children, including one who was only about six months old.

However it wasn't until 1987 that a painting by Vincent Van Gogh it the motherlode when it sold at auction for $49 million dollars. Gauguin hasn't don bad at all either. So I guess

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/11/newsid_2539000/2539613.stm

This site shows Vincent's "Sunflowers" painting, for those who haven't seen it.

Gauguin didn't do too shabby either, with some of his lush Tahitian paintings estimated to sell at auction for as much as $50 million.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2004/11/02/2003209436/print

So what does any of this have to do with figure skating? Just the point that figure skating has a strong element of subjectivity to it, whether you call it art, presentation, or PCS scores. Of course figure skating is a sport, but when I saw Oksana Baiul do an exhibition performance if "The Swan" with COI shortly after the Olympics--and luckily for me from an on ice seat, mid-ice--no one can tell me that I wasn't witnessing and being transported by the performance of an artist. I know many fans have felt the same way about Michelle's '98 Nationals performance of "Lyra Angelica." Even judges reported that her performance brought tears to there eyes.

Thus the point was to emphasize that no matter how objective they try to make the scoring system, there will always be an element of subjectivity. As time goes on, I think the NJS system will become more objective, but IMO there's no way to account for the scores some judges gives if their breath is taken away by the performance of a skater vs. judges who are left cold by the performance of that same skater. Vincent Van Gogh vs. Paul Gauguin. Alfred Brendel's recordings of the Beethoven Sonatas vs. those by Glenn Gould. True, these are art not sport, but still there is that X factor that may make you swoon in the work of one and not the other. And I believe that the X factor is there is figure skating as well. The NJS scoring system has done something to make the subjective X factor not be the determining factor in who places where, but I think it's still a factor.

BTW, with the money Van Gogh and Gauguin's descendants got and may still be getting (couldn't find info on the latter), maybe Vincent's indulgence in alcohol, tobacco, camphor, turpentine, and absinthe helped them develop their painting styles in new ways, which is not uncommon among artists, though I would never recommend substance abuse to anyone, artist or otherwise. Vincent couldn't help his bipolar disorder and I don't know what you mean by AIP but I do know Vincent is thought by those physicians today to have Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). Whatever you meant by AIP, many painters, actors, musicians, and other artists are known to have had bipolar and other mental disorders, used various substances of the day, and, sadly, many committed suicide as a result. OTOH, the "highs" of bipolar disorder are also thought to be why those artists who had it had extended periods of great insight and inspired work. Also, they often turned to substances such as alcohol and absinthe in an effort to feel that bipolar "high" again.

But this is just information as an aside to the main reason I used Vincent Van Gogh and Paul Gauguin as a comparison to the artistic and subjective elements of figure skating. Glad you got a good laugh out of it. :clap: :rock: :clap:

Rgirl
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Rgirl, I liked your comparison of Van Gogh and Gauguin. And there is a figure skating connection. Toller Cranston, also a painter, skated an exhibition to 'Vincent' also known as 'Starry, starry night.' It was an interesting 3 banger art appreciation course, combining painting, dance, and of course music. If someone wants to see it, I'd be glad to upload a link.

As to Sasha. I'm not the expert. I find her jumps so annoying that it's hard for me to get into the programs. In fact, I find it absolutely impossible to tell her flip from her lutz. In each case, going into the jump her edges wobble from inside to outside. As a result perhaps of not going up on the same edge in a consistent way, when she lands, the edge position is not consistent, and she may two foot, splat or otherwise have trouble. If someone would like to see a clip I made of Sasha's flip vs. lutz, which I call Sasha Guessing Game, see if you can tell which jump is which.

I thought Sasha's Swan Lake (Tarasova) version was her best choreographed, and I loved the costume that revealed this black swan/white swan shift when she was spinning.

I don't think of Sasha as a ballerina. I think of her as a model, and that's where the trouble comes. Sasha seems to be creating poses rather than movements. She doesn't seem to worry as much about the stuff she does between the poses. When you take a lot of photos of Sasha during a program you will find that a lot of them are not very pretty-until you hit the one that is the pose she was focussing on. In jumps, Sasha seems to focus on how Sasha looks in the air and seems to scrape through what she needs to do to get into that pose.

But I'm probably crazy.
 
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emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
DORISPULASKI said:
Rgirl, I liked your comparison of Van Gogh and Gauguin. And there is a figure skating connection. Toller Cranston, also a painter, skated an exhibition to 'Vincent' also known as 'Starry, starry night.' It was an interesting 3 banger art appreciation course, combining painting, dance, and of course music. If someone wants to see it, I'd be glad to upload a link.
.

YES PLEASE....he is one of my favs, and that song it totally one of my absolute favorites, and it has all kinds of wierd family nostalgia for me too...and I love Vincent Van Gogh's sunflowers to boot!

Mathman:
"PS. Emma, if "go to an opera" is on your list, the all-time best "first opera" to see is Mozart's Marriage of Figaro. In my wretchedly simple-minded and humble opinion, of course. I don't want to start any fights with the Italophiles" I amended Mozart's Marriage to my 'go to an opera' entry on my (long) to do list, but i'll take suggestions from Italophiles ( :agree: ) too...thanks!
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Rgirl said:
First of all, ITA that Ota's arms are truly breathtaking. However, although I don't see what's so funny about Gauguin spreading syphylis to teenage girls and that maybe Van Gogh had "more help from more substances," to each her own.

I absolutely don't think it was funny for Gauguin to spread syphilis to the young teenage girls. I was speculating maybe the painting gods were punishing Paul Gauguin for that and chose to bless V Gough instead. (I prefer Van Gough to Gauguin) I put the smiles after Van Gough's more substances, b/c I thought the baseball players are not the only ones who know how to use substances to get an edge. Who knows maybe Vicent's heightened creativity was secondary to the activation of his dopamine and GABA pathways (reward / pleasure final common pathway for cocaine, amphetamines, heroin etc) in the ventral tegmental area of his brain.

Sorry, I meant Vincent not Theo.

Does any of this have to do with figure skating? Just the point that figure skating has a strong element of subjectivity to it, whether you call it art, presentation, or PCS scores. Of course figure skating is a sport, but when I saw Oksana Baiul do an exhibition performance if "The Swan" with COI shortly after the Olympics--and luckily for me from an on ice seat, mid-ice--no one can tell me that I wasn't witnessing and being transported by the performance of an artist.
OK, was I disagreeing with you on that?

BTW, with all the money Van Gogh and Gauguin's ancestors are getting,

Ancestors??

Vincent couldn't help his bipolar disorder
Bipolar disorder is an illness just like any other illness that have biological (genetic) component. I am just stating that some experts think he had bipolar disoder. He might or might not. Definitely substance abuse and neurosyphilis can also present with mood swings. Anyway, if he had bipolar disorder, more credit to him for creating paintings in the midst of sufferings.

I don't know what you mean by AIP
Sorry, AIP is acute intermittent poryphyria, a disorder of heme biosynthesis, characterized by a triad of colicky abdominal pain, polyneuropathy, and psychosis. So whether he cut off his ear b/c of psychosis related to AIP, or substances or bipolar, we do not know. IMO people who suffer from mental illness / psychiatric problems need compassion and vigorous research and better treatment. IMO poeple who tried to insult others by hinting that they have "psychiatric" problems are :disagree: :disagree:

Comorbidity of bipolar disorder, substance abuse is unfortunate, I believe fortunately majority of bipolar sufferers do not abuse substance (which can complicate their recovery)

About ADHD, and bipolar disorder. It can offer a challenge for the pediatricians to figure out the 2, b/c there are similar symptoms. Some kids are misdiagnose one for the other. If Vincent indeed had ADHD then more power to him, for holding his attention enough to finish the paintings. I personally do not believe he had ADHD.
 
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Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Hey, Emma,
I'm glad you feel as if you're learning more about the wonderful subject of ballet. Indeed, Joe really knows his stuff having been a ballet dancer with the Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo, one of the most admired and longstanding ballet companies ever. Now he does volunteer work for American Ballet Theatre and not only gets to see their great performances from great seats, but also gets to watch the rehearsals, which are often more educational and interesting than the performances. For example, watching two great dancers in a pas de deux try to work out way a lift isn't working with the music gives such insight into how delicate the timing has to be, much like figure skating.

Although I started in ballet and performed in both ballet and modern till I was 18, I knew by the age of 16 that I was an evil modern dancer, lol. However, only modern dancers who adhere to a very strict modern style do not take both ballet and modern classes. I bring this up because I've always wondered if athletic skaters such as Irina find some benefit from the right style of modern dance for her. For example, with Irina's power, speed, and skating "deep into the ice," I wonder if she might like classes in Humphrey-Limon technique. The H-L technique is deep into the earth, uses natural positions of the arms, and is built on a system of "fall and recovery." You don't actually fall to the floor; it's actually a system of giving into gravity until the last possible moment when you recover your balance. It also has beautiful use of the torso, where Irina is very flexible but tends to get rather wild sometimes. Like I said, I'd just love to see if classes in Humphrey-Limon would (a) appeal to Irina and (b) if they would make a positive difference in her skating.

I could go on and on with skaters and what kind of modern or ballet technique classes might be interesting for them, from my point of view, but I'll spare you all, except to say I'd be interested to see Sasha work with the technique Paul Taylor developed. It includes the strong lines of Merce Cunningham; the power of Martha Graham; and the fluidity of Humphrey-Limon--everything that, IMO, would be beneficial to Sasha.

One more thing about ballet: I second Joe's suggestion to rent a tape of a ballet performance. While it's true that most any tape will give you a good idea of what's involved, but if you want to see the creme de la creme, I'd recommend Mikhail Baryshnikov and Natalia Markova doing "Swan Lake" or, even though it's older and most of the corps dancers look like beginners next to the stars, the tape of Dame Margot Fonteyn and Rudolph Nureyev (first Russian dancer to seek and get political asylum in the west) doing "Romeo and Juliet." Those are just two tapes that show four of the greatest dancers of the 20th Century, but Joe is right that watching any tape of American Ballet Theatre or New York City Ballet will be a great experience.:)

As for my "War and Pairs" post (thanks for the great review, Mathman; you're a mensch) I'd send it to you as a private message but it's too long. If you want to PM me your e-mail I'll e-mail it to you. Otherwise I can just re-post it with a warning: THIS IS A RE-POSTING OF "WAR AND PAIRS." READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!

Now as for Mathman, who slightly loses his mensch status for describing my post about Michelle's as it being my treatise on why her skating "sucked"--now, Mathman, you know darn well I never said Michelle's skatting "sucked." In fact, I wrote the post because several people had asked me to explain what I thought of Michelle's skating since certain other people were inaccurately explaining it for me. If I still have it, I will gladly send it to you.

Anyway, your mensch status is reinstated for mentioning the love of my life, Cartman!:love: :rock: :love:

Besides, that was a great analysis of the problem with the NJS system. Although I've seen you write about the "MacGuffin" (see Alfred Hitchcock movies) of throwing out two random scores, I'm sure a lot of people haven't. It's just so silly you wonder if the statisticians who supposedly helped put this together had ever had a statistics class in their life?! I also agree that we'd get a more accurate calculation of the skater's (get ready to barf) "true score" if the scores of all 9 or 12 judges were used with the high and low scores thrown out. Even if you think the "true score" is as believable as Tinkerbell (clap three times), the point is I agree that the skater's placements would be more accurate if they used the scores with the trimmed means.

Sorry I threatened you with torture--you do know I was kidding; I can't even get to where you live!--but you did give use a great post about the NJS vs. OBO.

Cartman would react by saying, "Screw you, Mathman. I'm going home!" The ultimate compliment.:)

Rgirl

P.S. Wasn't this thread originally about whether Sasha was brittle or fragile? Actually, most people are doing pretty well for a thread this long. JMO.
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
kyla2 said:
To expect Sasha to be an actual ballerina on the ice is a bit much don't you all think??? But she comes as close to it as is humanly possible while still standing up on a blade. Her line and extension are exquisite and should not be undervalued. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Give this girl a break. I fear the skating God is going to get really p****d off and Sasha will win the Olympics, at Michelle's expense, because you all are so relentlessly merciless where Sasha is concerned.

I also think B & S should have won the Olympics over S & P, hands down. That little fiasco (thanks to the Canadians) cost Michelle the Olympic gold in my opinion.
ACK! I can't keep up with responding to posts! ITA with your opinion that line and extension, no matter who the skater, should not be undervalued. However, I don't think most people expect Sasha to be a ballerina on ice. I think the argument is whether or not Sasha has a balletic style.

But I do agree that Sasha, for whatever reasons, has been the "tomato" girl, as in throw them at her, since she first came on the scene. She's hardly the first and won't be the last. From '97 until at least 2001, it was Tara Lipinski. Nicole Bobek got it for a while. Irina was the "hate her" girl from about '96 until just a few years ago. Anyway, Sasha is hated by a lot of figure skating fans; a valuable few don't hate her but are able to analyze her skating weaknesses--thank you Doris;)-- without trashing her personality or other things that have nothing to do with her skating; and many more fans than you would know from GS love Sasha. Believe me, they're in the stands at every competition, as Joe and others can attest to. I think they probably post on other forums and especially the Sasha.com forum. It's just the way the skating forums work and it's took me a long time to get used to it. And still sometimes if I'm tired or whatever, the petty attacks on skaters such as Irina or Sasha drive me nuts. I try to remember to go to my favorite movie site or just log out, but sometimes my amygdala (a part of the primitive brain that makes you do primitive things) gets the better of me.

Although I agree with you about B&S wining the '02 Olys, that's as far as I'll go. I don't know about the Canadian stuff so I won't go there.

But thanks for your input. Your posts always express interesting points of view.:)

Rgirl

P.S. Doris and Gezando, I will respond tomorrow but my arms are cramping up and my tummy is crying "Pizza!" which is a sure sign it's time to sign off for the day :)
 
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