another Yagudin article

curious · Jun 3, 2005

ildah said:
One of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time, mainly because of the intelligent discussion around the issue - (other than the totally childish speculation about who were the mean, snarky skaters)

You guys make a lot of good points about Alexei re: biting the hand that feeds him, his possible loneliness, the two faced comments first about "dinosaur" Americans and then about those awful people who made Sarah feel bad. ( On a CNN clip about the SOI buses, Jamie said that Alexei is the "solitary one", he's his own man - something like that.)

SOI is definitely a BUSINESS, as someone said - not a ballet company or opera company supported by the state. The NA skaters know this. It is their bread and butter for 4-8 years max. It is likely the most money they will ever make per year in their working lives, and they have a short time to do this. The tour HAS to survive for this to happen. And Sarah was, by all comments, not only NOT prepared for the rigours of the tour, (which must be killing), but an embarrassment to the show as well. A lot of the other skaters must have been sweating over this, and I'll bet there were PLENTY of private discussions about it. (espec the pairs guys I might imagine - who lifted her in Mr. Blue Skies - and who are used to lifting tiny girls)

I do feel sorry for Sarah and it's really sweet that the Russian skaters made her feel welcome. HOWEVER, remember that Alexei reported to an interviewer what he surmised or gathered from Sarah. Then the interview was translated.

Has anyone thought of THIS spin on what might have happened:

Sarah gets on the bus after the show many different nights and says "Oh my God I'm so exhausted.... I had no idea.... Does it get any easier as the tour goes on?.....How do you guys do it year after year.......blah, blah, blah....." You guys get the idea. Make up your own scenario. And then, having been given the opening, the other skaters at various times take the bait and tell her "Yes, it's not a vacation, it's really demanding, nothing can prepare you for it ...blah, blah"
I seriously do not think that anybody ever made fun of her or criticized her the way the interview seems to indicate. (But.... how do I know? Just my opinion).

That, plus the talking about skating all the time (I'm sure the skaters analyse how things could have been better, how they were mad at themselves for missing something that night, or how they almost tripped in such and such....). That would have made the unfit Sarah feel even more self conscious. Remember also that both Kyoko and Jamie had fairly serious injuries one right after the other in the early part of the tour, so if I were in their shoes I could imagine talking about healing, therapy, feeling stronger, working on the injured part, worrying that it might not heal quickly.. etc. etc.

It must have been a very, very stressful tour for Sarah - increasingly as everybody on the tour got more tired and grouchy and her weight increased she must have felt very bad. However, sitting here with a perfectly good job, I can't imagine a person coming into my office - albeit very sweet and nice - who tries her best, but whose performance starts to influence in a very real way what might be my future in my job, because it might contribute to my company going under. I had never thought of it in those terms, but that would scare me silly AND make me resentful at the same time.

Sorry for rambling. I enjoy your discussions!

edited: Jamie Sale and weigh problems? Am I missing something or thinking of the wrong skater?

I have said in the past that he is a very complex individual with alot of unresolved issues. too senstitive and blunt for his own good. that kind of person will often get in trouble,cause like said in an interivew,he pretty much says what comes to mind,not a smart thing to do but that's alexei. :biggrin:

Ptichka · Jun 3, 2005

Linny said:
After all, Sarah's current weight may just be perfectly normal for her and that loosing it would required drastic measures. I must admit, though, that my point of view is that of someone who is predisposed to being amply proportioned.

It may very well be. However, he does not look good on the ice; she also has not been able to re-adjust her technique to her new body and weight. I always disliked comments about Sarah's weight before she joined SOI - I considered it her own business what to do with her body while she was at Yale. However, once she puts herself out there on that arena and has people pay good bucks to see her skate, it's a whole new ball game.

RIskatingfan · Jun 3, 2005

KwanFan1212 said:
IMO, Alexei brings in a lot of fans for both the US and the Canadian tours and I find it hard to believe they would cast him aside just to bring someone new in no matter if they are an American skater or not (especially if its for Michael Weiss who would be a BIG bathroom break for me, LOL ). It is about what sells in the USA but Alexei does sell those tickets so that will definitely be considered for SOI when they put the cast together for next year. I kinda think that if he doesn't tour again this fall, it won't entirely be the fault of SOI.

Barring injury or something else really important, it's safe to say he will skate with SOI, he signed a 4 year contract in 2002.

ITA on the matter of selling tickets. He has a huge fan base in the US and Canada, who go to SOI just to watch him skate. And adding to that, there's also many people who fly from Japan and Europe every year purposely to see him. So as far as filling the seats, I believe he does his share of the job. I wonder how many seats would Weiss fill, also when Eldredge is on the tour.

attyfan · Jun 3, 2005

KwanFan1212 said:
Why should they get axed? :scratch: That is just beyond random to state that so bluntly. (And we don't really know if this is true or not. Its ONE article over a whole season that's mentioned anything about this happening on tour ... .. :no:

I agree that I should have prefaced my remarks with "if this is true". However, the one article stated that the comments about her weight were so severe that Sarah moved to a different bus. If the comments get that bad, then whoever is making them is a problem -- simply because the comments are counterproductive.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 3, 2005

Getting back to Alexei and away from the fat lady. Was it Alexei complaining in COI that MK was skating last and he should be skating last. I know someone did but I am not sure if it was Alexei. If it were, I really believe he should be back in Russia where he is a living god. He's not a happy man in North America, imo.

As much as I believe the sun rises and sets on Michelle, I do not believe she can sell out a show on more than one night. Even in Madison Square Garden where they held a cheesefest one year that I attended. The house was full of customers and it was divided almost equally between fans of MK and fans of Sasha. I don't think more than half that size would show up for another night., and there wouldn't be much more interested customers to fill that big arena.

I don't think it's the star that draws so many into an arena. It's like a Disney movie. It's a great way to treat one's daughters to a special event. In fact, that's the way I think of figure skating anyway. The sport attracts very very young girls and their mothers who are happy that their daughters will grow up and be another Sonia Henie. JMO

Joe

tvcats · Jun 3, 2005

Thank you, Joe, for posting your feelings about one skater being able to sell out more than one show. I have been trying to say that for years, but haven't been articulate enough.
Anyway, I agree. It's the cast as a whole - not just one skater that makes a tour or show.

SusanBeth · Jun 3, 2005

attyfan said:
I agree that I should have prefaced my remarks with "if this is true". However, the one article stated that the comments about her weight were so severe that Sarah moved to a different bus. If the comments get that bad, then whoever is making them is a problem -- simply because the comments are counterproductive.

I am the Mother of 2 teenage daughters. In the US, our teenage girls are struggling with our weight obsessive culture. In other words, girls tend to worry a lot about their size and it makes them supersensitive. It doesn't take much to get most teenage girls upset, especially if they know there's a problem. It's very possible, Sarah asked someone if an outfit made her look heavy and got an honest answer. That's really all it takes. It could well be that no one said anything intentionally hurtful to the girl.

soogar · Jun 3, 2005

Brian Boitano and Katarina Witt did extremely well when they toured together and the rest of the skaters were no names (or at least I don't remember them). I do remember sitting through Yvonne Gomez's horrible performance where she fell on all of her jumps. There's no doubt that Brian Boitano on his own can sell out a show.

curious · Jun 3, 2005

I can't think of a single skater that can do that with the precarious state of the sport. as for yags,we know how quickly he changes his mind. he'll probably be back in the states after june 18 :biggrin:

tvcats · Jun 3, 2005

I think that Joe (and I) were saying that one person couldn't sell out more than one or two shows in the same venue on a nightly basis.

emma · Jun 3, 2005

So...a little bit off topic, but since elite skaters have so few years to tour (someone said 4-8 I think), and that they make the most yearly salary of their careers touring (so have to take advantage of it)...I'm just wondering, does anyone know what a typical or average tour salary would be? I realize it will vary tremdously based on the person, so I'm not asking what Michelle's salary is (but, yes would love to know if it's public knowlegde)...rather, just trying to get a sense of how good a tour salary is.

terisalyn · Jun 3, 2005

It is amazing how two cups of media interview can yield a 10-pound sack of in-depth psychological analysis!

Zanzibar · Jun 3, 2005

Well Terisalyn...it is the off-season, LOL!

I think folks could choose to be pleased he's providing a few sacks of grist for the mill, because let's face reality - there are many top skaters who have almost nothing of interest/controversy/whatever to say to the media which leaves very little for 'discussion' boards to actually
'discuss.'

mzheng · Jun 3, 2005

soogar said:
The Russian skaters are used to being shafted on the money end compared to NA skaters so they probably don't care that Sarah makes more money b/c all the NA skaters make more money and have job security compared to them.

This might be the case in old days. But I don't think it's the case now. Aren't all these Rusian skaters having the same US agents who also represent US skaters? The agents will let them know how much they truely worth and make them the best deal.

soogar said:
Though I have lots of Asian friends and they are very honest (ie if you look fat , they will tell you). That doesn't make them unpleasant people by any means.

In chinese call you 'fat' does not necessary mean insult. Sometimes it is a compliment. As long as not 'fat pig' -- that would be a insult. My mom used to tell me to 'get fat', I used to be so ashamed that I couldn't get myself as 'fat' as my mom wanted no matter how much more I aet. And now I sometimes tell my daughter she is a little bit 'fat', of course she is not 'fat' by any means in American standard and probably at the lighter side on chart.

By American standard Sarah by no means fat. But as far as her skating goes in SOI toure, if her weight prevent her perform to the standard that her SOI coworkers'; then I see nothing wrong they joked about her weight. Actually they are doing her favor by make excuses for her that she can't do triples or even doubles not because she lost the skills or lack of desire to improve but because of she gain the weight.

Excidra2001 · Jun 3, 2005

mzheng said:
This might be the case in old days. But I don't think it's the case now. Aren't all these Rusian skaters having the same US agents who also represent US skaters? The agents will let them know how much they truely worth and make them the best deal.

The old days, today, whats the difference? I agree with Soogar,"The Russian skaters are used to being shafted on the money end compared to NA skaters" Its been happening since the days of G&G and its happenin to this day. It does not matter whether they have an American agent(although the top Russian skaters Slutskaya, Pluskenko, T&M are all represented by a Russian Agent) its all about being an American when it comes to these tours, although I don't blame them as someone above stated Americans want to see Americans.
SOI employment department would be doing back-flips if an American woman was to win the OGM in Turino. I bet they wouldn't be as happy if a European woman won it.

Mzeng said:
By American standard Sarah by no means fat. But as far as her skating goes in SOI toure, if her weight prevent her perform to the standard that her SOI coworkers'; then I see nothing wrong they joked about her weight. Actually they are doing her favor by make excuses for her that she can't do triples or even doubles not because she lost the skills or lack of desire to improve but because of she gain the weight.

By American standards, Sarah is not fat. If we were talking about skating standards, then your arguement might hold true(although she can still do doubles and possibly pull of a triple jump). Also, I don't see how some SOI skaters are doing Sarah a favour by making fun of her weight. People have committed suicid and seriously injured them selfs because of people taunting them and criticizing their appearance, weight,race, colour, religion and etc.It puzzles me that bunch of grown folks are engaged in such manner.If skaters at SOI are taunting Sarah in the manner specifed above then they should stop immeditaly before someone seriously hurts them selfs. I've always said that if someone is constantly scrutinizing another person then they are insecure with their own self.
My heart goes out to Sarah.

76olympics · Jun 3, 2005

Like Ptichka, I don't find it strange that American audiences are most receptive to American skaters. I don't think this means that they don't appreciate skaters from other countries--it's just the way of the world. I certainly wouldn't expect Russians to flock more avidly to see Michelle than Alexei. I would give a good bit to see either. LOL! Sesame Street Live came to our town. But not SOI. Alas!

As for Sarah--I can see how she is not in "fighting figure skating" shape--but I just hate the idea of anyone making her feel bad. Hey--hiring her was already a done deal for this season. Why make the tour a less harmonious place? But-I am a glass half full person, i guess....

mzheng · Jun 3, 2005

Excidra2001 said:
The old days, today, whats the difference? I agree with Soogar,"The Russian skaters are used to being shafted on the money end compared to NA skaters" Its been happening since the days of G&G and its happenin to this day. It does not matter whether they have an American agent(although the top Russian skaters Slutskaya, Pluskenko, T&M are all represented by a Russian Agent) its all about being an American when it comes to these tours, although I don't blame them as someone above stated Americans want to see Americans.
SOI employment department would be doing back-flips if an American woman was to win the OGM in Turino. I bet they wouldn't be as happy if a European woman won it.

Now you jump your gun. Did you see the contract how much SOI pay to Rusian skaters and NA skaters? If you've seen, then please humor us.

My post was based on the infomation I gathered through out reading from web. I read in one of Katie G.'s interview that when they first joined the US show, they diddn't know how much US skaters got paid. So they don't know how much they should ask for. It was only after years that they knew they, Rusian skaters, got far less pay than US skaters in the same show because they don't know how to ask. Then they know the nut and bolt how to negotiate the pay rate with the show. I diddn't read any where Yagudin or other Rusian skaters late joining the show complainning about his low pay in show.

Again it's about the BUSSINESS, and bussiness is also market driven. As the owner of the show the less they pay the better for them. For instance if you went job interview and asked for $80,000 think your potential employee will offer you $90,000? I doubt. However maybe what you really wanted was something above $100,000; but then you'd be afraid of asking too much that you weren't get the job at all, that the employee might get someone less cost than you.

Whatever US audience and ppl are the most generous ones that I've seen, IMO. Think any other non Rusian skaters would get the same wellcome in Rusia like Yagudin, Plushin and Irina got in US? I doubt.

Excidra2001 · Jun 3, 2005

mzheng said:
Now you jump your gun. Did you see the contract how much SOI pay to Rusian skaters and NA skaters? If you've seen, then please humor us.

I did not say that I was present when skaters were signing these contracts. I'll go more in detail since you did not understand my above post. I'm willing to bet that although Sasha Cohen is not as accomplished skater as Slutskaya is, she gets paid more by COI then Slutskaya does, simply because she is an American and skating on American turf. Again, nothing wrong with Sasha getting more money then Slute or all the other top Russians as she is an American. Thats the point I was trying to make.

mezeng said:
Whatever US audience and ppl are the most generous ones that I've seen, IMO. Think any other non Rusian skaters would get the same wellcome in Rusia like Yagudin, Plushin and Irina got in US? I doubt.

Well you can doubt whever you want but Johnny Weir stated in an interview how loving and welcoming Russian audience were to him at the world championships and Cup of Russia. Also, if American skaters took the time to get on a Russian tour then we might have a better understanding as to how Russian crowds treat them.

NorthernLite · Jun 3, 2005

tvcats said:
How odd that folks that were so vocal in saying negative things about Sarah in public forums now want to get riled because her peers *might* have said something about her.

Putting Sarah's performance aside, and just speaking of some of those armchair critics -

As someone who followed Sarah's career since early '99, I know she's always taken an extraordinary amount of heat. There are kwanatics, cohenheads and sluties who never liked her. So I know some of them would be criticizing her no matter what, e.g., if she were doing triples, we'd be hearing they were still "cheated" blah-blah-blah. (I like to cite the SkateFans poster who said before SLC that if Michelle didn't win, the poster would HATE whoever did. And she wasn't joking. Scary.)

I still like Sarah, wish she had some triples but thought her solo numbers were acceptable choreographically, and am sorry I couldn't see SOI in person this year. I wasn't a big Tara fan. But although Tara and Sarah are different, I'm seeing a little similarity between their SOI situationsm based on their ages.

For awhile in SOI, Tara could still do the tech stuff, but her performances were "young" to me. And we heard rumors she didn't get along with the cast. Sarah, not as proficient jumpwise, does present an older look and seems to have a personality that should fit in more. But she's still six years younger than the next-youngest (Alexei). And also, their ages meant/mean that both had/have much less *performing* experience than the other skaters.
Just a thought.

BTW Did Scott really brag about his wife not gaining much weight during pregnancy? That was an idiotic thing to say.
As for the Oksana/Nancy debate (where did that come from

) - put me in the Nancy column.

mzheng · Jun 3, 2005

Excidra2001 said:
I did not say that I was present when skaters were signing these contracts. I'll go more in detail since you did not understand my above post. I'm willing to bet that although Sasha Cohen is not as accomplished skater as Slutskaya is, she gets paid more by COI then Slutskaya does, simply because she is an American and skating on American turf. Again, nothing wrong with Sasha getting more money then Slute or all the other top Russians as she is an American. Thats the point I was trying to make.

Another one willing to bet something on speculation?

Like I said, it might just come down to how much you 'dare' to ask in negotiating the deal. Nothing like they will get automatically paid by COI. They all have agents, it's agent job to advice their client and negotiation the deal in the best of its client. If Irina can't get better pay than Sasha in COI or she thought she deserved more, then she could always fire her agent or leave the deal. Then if COI in a desperate position they will offer her whatever she wants.

You and whatever you agree with Sooge's POV was all those pay difference was based on skater's Nationality. While I believe it's based on Bussiness and market value. The accomplishment dose not automatically translate to the market value....Not to mention what she said in her Rusian interview about the America, which would not help her a bit in negotiating any US deal.

Weir is not at Plushin's level yet. Wait until he's Plushin's level then let's see how he is wellcomed in Rusia.

another Yagudin article

curious

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76olympics

mzheng

Excidra2001

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