The Tight Competitions at the Olys | Page 4 | Golden Skate

The Tight Competitions at the Olys

janetb

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Excidra2001 said:
Its okay to be more critical of a world champion, they are after all considered to be the best in the world, but were you just as critical of Kwan/Arakawa than you are to Irina?
I kind of doubt that this person was critical of Kwan at least, since the majority of member of this board lean heavily to being Kwan fans. In fact when I criticized Kwan’s current lack of technical skills, most notability the current lack of a loop, I was told that because I was criticizing for a negative view point my criticism/opinion where not valid.

What really gets me is that while people right large tracts on Sasha's edges/flutz and how Irena pumps her back when she strokes, now it appears that some people think she telegraphs her flip, yet Kwan is sacrosanct. Let's get real Kwan may go down in history as having 5 world gold medals but Irena will go down as the best female technical skater of the last 5 years with having landed two 3/3 for the first time . Not too many people remember many of male medalists from 60’s but we all know who Donald Jackson is. Irena belongs to a much more exclusive group skater’s than Kwan does those that have completed first in competition. People like Irena, Jackson, Burka, Axel Paulson, Dick Button, Kurt Browning and Midore Ito are part of group of which there are only 28 members. Michelle Kwan will never belong to this group because she is more interested in winning medals than pushing the sport. Personally I have a lot more respect for Irena and her skating than for Michelle because push yourself and your sport are what the Olympic spirit is all about.
 
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icedancer2

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
janetb said:
What really gets me is that while right large tracts on Sasha's edges/flutz and how Irena pumps her back when she strokes, now it appears that some people think she telegraphs her flip, yet Kwan is sacrosanct. Let's get real Kwan may go down in history as having 5 world gold medals but Irena will go down as the best female technical skater of the last 5 years with having landed two 3/3 for the first time . Not too many people remember many of male medalists from 60’s but we all know who Donald Jackson is. Irena belongs to a much more exclusive group skater’s than Kwan does those that have completed first in competition. People like Irena, Jackson, Burka, Axel Paulson, Dick Button, Kurt Browning and Midore Ito are part of group of which there are only 28 members. Michelle Kwan will never belong to this group because she is more interested in winning medals than pushing the sport. Personally I have a lot more respect for Irena and her skating than for Michelle because push your self and your sport are what the Olympic spirit is all about.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing this with us!!

I totally agree.
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
janetb said:
What really gets me is that while people right large tracts on Sasha's edges/flutz and how Irena pumps her back when she strokes, now it appears that some people think she telegraphs her flip, yet Kwan is sacrosanct.
An interesting opinion, but rather inaccurate. Who are these "people"? Unless you can point out a pattern among specific posters, please don't lump all of us who don't love Slutskaya together, because not all of our posting patterns support what you think.
 

janetb

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
hockeyfan228 said:
An interesting opinion, but rather inaccurate. Who are these "people"? Unless you can point out a pattern among specific posters, please don't lump all of us who don't love Slutskaya together, because not all of our posting patterns support what you think.

My proof, well there is a 23 page thread on Sasha much of which is a discussion of how bad a skater she is and here we have 5 pages mostly on how bad a skater Irena is. Yet there doesn't seem to be a thread on "Kwan she's lost it" and when you do indicate you don't think she is the be all and end all of ladies figure skating then you get told your opinion is not worth a hill of beans. So while I don't think that everybody who doesn't like Irena is a Michelle fan. I do believe that you will find a lot more negative posts about Irena's and Sasha's skating than you will about Michelle yet when you look at the results and skating of the two years. Michelle has shown little or no improvement in her technical skills and I think you can make strong arguments that her jumping skills are getting worse not improving and her placement have either remained the same or have gotten worse. So who disserve most criticism of their skating, to me MK does, not SC or IS who have both improved or held steady over the last two years.

It's interesting to note that all three ladies medalist this year faced either injury or a serious illness over the last year yet Kwan who arguably has the best training facilities and structure couldn't put it all together. To me if she is not interested in trying her dammedest to do her best than she should step aside, so that someone who is gets the opportunity to skate at worlds and the Olympics.
 

Excidra2001

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
janetb said:
I kind of doubt that this person was critical of Kwan at least, since the majority of member of this board lean heavily to being Kwan fans. In fact when I criticized Kwan’s current lack of technical skills, most notability the current lack of a loop, I was told that because I was criticizing for a negative view point my criticism/opinion where not valid.

What really gets me is that while people right large tracts on Sasha's edges/flutz and how Irena pumps her back when she strokes, now it appears that some people think she telegraphs her flip, yet Kwan is sacrosanct. Let's get real Kwan may go down in history as having 5 world gold medals but Irena will go down as the best female technical skater of the last 5 years with having landed two 3/3 for the first time . Not too many people remember many of male medalists from 60’s but we all know who Donald Jackson is. Irena belongs to a much more exclusive group skater’s than Kwan does those that have completed first in competition. People like Irena, Jackson, Burka, Axel Paulson, Dick Button, Kurt Browning and Midore Ito are part of group of which there are only 28 members. Michelle Kwan will never belong to this group because she is more interested in winning medals than pushing the sport. Personally I have a lot more respect for Irena and her skating than for Michelle because push yourself and your sport are what the Olympic spirit is all about.

I really agree with a lot of what your posting. I'm well aware that majority of the members who post here are in favor of Kwan, nothing wrong with that, really, its only natural to find people who have something in common at one place. But it gets tiresome to see the same old posters criticizing everyone but Kwan. Had Irina been loopless, I think all hell would've broke loose. Sentiments like "she is a top competitor, how could her loop be nill" "it should be a requirement to have all set of triples in the senior rank" and stuff of that sort. But its Kwan who is loopless, so its okay. I've never personally criticized Kwan of having no loop, if she can win without it, go right ahead. Then there is the never ending talk of Irina's biellman. Sometimes being on the other side of the grass puts a lot of things into perspective. :agree:
 

attyfan

Custom Title
Medalist
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Excidra2001 said:
... . Had Irina been loopless, I think all hell would've broke loose. Sentiments like "she is a top competitor, how could her loop be nill" "it should be a requirement to have all set of triples in the senior rank" and stuff of that sort. ... Then there is the never ending talk of Irina's biellman. Sometimes being on the other side of the grass puts a lot of things into perspective. :agree:

I don't think that hell would break loose if Irina went loopless -- I would think she is simply saving her hips. Furthermore, without the loop, Kwan still has four different triples, not to mention doubles, with which to create interesting programs. I think one thing that has contributed to more interesting programs has been the Zayak rule, making skaters do a wider variety of jumps. Similarly, while I think that Irina's biellmann positions show that Irina is milking the NJS for all it is worth -- and more power to her -- but I believe her programs would be better still if she used more varied positions in her spins and spirals than the biellmann.

Question for janetb -- Irina is in a group of 28 singles skaters, male and female -- those who have been the first to land specific jumps or jump combinations. Kwan is in a group of no more than 8 singles skaters, male and female -- those who have won five or more world gold medals. So, how is Irina in a more exclusive group than Kwan?

IMHO, the most important group they belong to is the one of long-lasting, friendly rivaries -- in which (I believe) they are in a class by themselves (who else has had so consistent a rivalry for over ten years)?
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
attyfan, well said.

For me it is very understandable this is an NA board, MK simply skated long than Sasha and during all those years she collected more NA figure skating fans than Sasha, if you go a Rusian board I believe you would see all the higher praise on Irina and long ciritisizing threads on Michelle. What's so difficult to understand? If you don't like the place or don't like to pickup the 'fighting' you can always find a place you like to post, right? :cool:
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Excidra2001 said:
But its Kwan who is loopless, so its okay.

Well, not completely loopless. She did have a double loop, at the end of a combination too.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
mzheng said:
What's the definition of 'telegraph' the jump? IMO, the body 'freeze' up for a while before entering into the jump.
Elena Liashenko does that. On her Lutz it sometimes looks like she is going to crash into the boards before she can will her body to unfreeze itself and actually jump.

But the definition in the ISU rules (under criteria for -1 GOE) it defines telegraphing as just a "long entry."

To me, I don't mind entries that announce, OK, everybody, hold on to your seats, here goes my big, spectacular triple flip -- TA DA!

MM
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
About who is the most criticised, it's whoever happens to be riding high at the moment. Right now, in the the U.S., that's Sasha. And internationally, Irina.

Sasha should be tickled to death that there are 23-page threads about her on figure skating boards. Michelle used to have that honor, back in the day. If some of the posts are critical, I'm sure that makes Sasha cry all the way to the bank. As they say in show business, "I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right!"

That's S-A-S-H-A, LOL.

Mathman
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
gkelly said:
Well, not completely loopless. She did have a double loop, at the end of a combination too.
About Michelle's missing loop, at worlds I think she figured, well, Irina's got 5 loops planned (3 triples and 2 doubles), so that should take care of the loop quota for this championship.
 

liberal

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
janetb said:
I kind of doubt that this person was critical of Kwan at least, since the majority of member of this board lean heavily to being Kwan fans. In fact when I criticized Kwan’s current lack of technical skills, most notability the current lack of a loop, I was told that because I was criticizing for a negative view point my criticism/opinion where not valid.

What really gets me is that while people right large tracts on Sasha's edges/flutz and how Irena pumps her back when she strokes, now it appears that some people think she telegraphs her flip, yet Kwan is sacrosanct. Let's get real Kwan may go down in history as having 5 world gold medals but Irena will go down as the best female technical skater of the last 5 years with having landed two 3/3 for the first time . Not too many people remember many of male medalists from 60’s but we all know who Donald Jackson is. Irena belongs to a much more exclusive group skater’s than Kwan does those that have completed first in competition. People like Irena, Jackson, Burka, Axel Paulson, Dick Button, Kurt Browning and Midore Ito are part of group of which there are only 28 members. Michelle Kwan will never belong to this group because she is more interested in winning medals than pushing the sport. Personally I have a lot more respect for Irena and her skating than for Michelle because push yourself and your sport are what the Olympic spirit is all about.
ITA, what a great post of telling it like it is. :clap: :rock:

I’m a lurker still awaiting for Golden Skate to become a general skating board instead of Michelle Kwan Form II, I have been waiting a long time.

But in the end the owners can set the tone of board, their right, but it would be nice not to pretend it is a general skating board.
It’s a shame because skating could use another general skating board.

I do admire these few who do show up to defend Sasha, Irina and Sarah who are dissing endlessly.
I do feel that eventually even those few which give up and realize “what’s the use” and not return.
 

cianni

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Bantering

I dont find GS a Kwan fest at all. I do think if Irina fans need to defend her every move then she must be doing something they need to defend. Not much faith in her. I read a lot of skating posts and choose not to respond and if its a bashing place I dont go there. I did go to a Lapinski site long ago and it was so brutal it was funny. I read very immature childish posters bashing Kwan in every post. My choice I never went back. I think most posts and posters try to be objective in viewing the quality of the skating. I also think Irina is milking the system with Bielmans and for me its a turnoff its not quality skating its doing a program empty of chore. I think Sasha needs to do a clean program and not depend on spins again with her its spin and win. I think Michelle needs to up the ante and go for it do the 3/3s but keep the quality of her skating. I find a lot of well thought out posts trying to understand the ways the system is being used. I appriciate their input. If you need to defend your fav or dont want to hear honest feedback in others opinions then go to your favs site. I dont mean to be harsh but the Irina defending gets old and people are entitled to their opinion of the quality of her skating as well as others. I want people to continue to post their views of the skaters, skating, and the judges and their judging. Thats what the boards are for. Sorry if it sounds like a rant well maybe it is.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I'm not at all sure that it matters what Kwan fans think. If they bore you, they bore me too, and I am a Kwan fan. I also happen to like Sasha. and her fans bore me as well. I am sure if I was on a Russian based skating forum, I would be bored to tears about Evgeni and Irina. I enjoy well phrased and documented critiques of all skater - not just a thrown in 'missing loop jump' for the sake of some sort of put down. I take nitpicking with a grain of salt.

As for Irina, I reiterate my feelings about how I am not in wonderment over her style of skating and lack of good basic line when skating. But hey, JMO. Nothing to do with her carefully planned loop jump.

Joe
 

cianni

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Amazing

You got it Joeitz its amazing what some posters will zero in on to avoid whats being said. i have opinions also but still like to read how others see the skaters and how they skate. I have not so far ever really posted what I think of some skaters and their skating skills . I do go back and rewatch the comps. I listen to what Dick says and other commentators and then rew the tape and sure enough there it is. I learn a lot that way.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Very refreshing to finally hear the opinions of the non-Kwan fans being aired. I really have been waiting for this for a very long time. :rock:

Let's face it, there are a lot of Kwan fans here. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. So therefore the majority of the opinions here will favor her. And I think that with the vast majority of posters here being in/from North America, it also makes sense that European/Russian skaters may be under more scrutiny than American ones.

Assuming that one is a fan of a skater just because of an opinion they may hold is IMO not only unfair, it's totally ridiculous and non-sensical.

Anyway- I have my own personal opinions about these skaters, and while I think Irina is the heavy favorite for gold at the OLYS, anything- and I mean ANYTHING- can happen.

Like many other posters here, I don't particularly care for Irina (her attitude "I should have won in SLC" just turned me off completely) but I'll give credit where I think it's due. And even though I do think she's been overmarked at times, she deserved all of her wins last season. She WAS dominant. And I DO think she is the favorite in 2006. Does this mean she'll win? I don't know. The judges may well have it in for her, but (hopefully) she still has to prove that she deserves it. And that means beating every other skater that night. Just like Moscow Worlds. She didn't need the judges to hold her up to win that one. She WON it. She was untouchable that night. Cohen (the next one down) looked so slow and boring compared to her.

And...MK, MK, MK. What am I doing to do with her. :biggrin: :scratch: I can't say this any clearer: she HAS to mean business this season. She may have 9 (very well 10) National titles, 5 world titles, etc. but that means squat right now. She is in the position of the underdog for the FIRST time going into the Olympic year. She has taken it easy for the past four years. Say what you will, but this put her in "catch-up" territory. I think the question here is, Does the OGM still mean as much to her as it once did? Is she willing to just throw caution to the wind (something she's never been able to do with the pressure REALLY on) and just give it her all? She's going to have to do this, PLUS possibly rely on a stumble from Slutskaya or even Cohen, the way things have been looking the past two years. Can she do it? It's not impossible. She just has to have the right mindset and, while taking on a fuller schedule, not get too tired out. But with the way she's been doing it, is this even possible?

Some people already seem to be proclaiming Cohen the 2006 National champion since the US is for the first time using the Cop, or the "NJS", for their judging system. I say not so fast. Kwan's got a streak here. I don't see any reason why she's going to stop now. 2005 was a clear indication to me that Kwan just simply OWNS Nationals. No one can even touch her in that comp. Even last year, we saw a tentative, cautious Kwan simply blow the competition away. How can anyone POSSIBLY think that SC could step it up THAT much to convince the judges to hand her the title instead? Sorry, I don't see that happening as long as Kwan is on skates. And if Cohen can't handle the national pressure, there's no reason for me to think she can handle the olympic pressure, which will be even greater. There will be a lot of pressure on these two, and Irina as well, so I wonder if another teenager will swoop in and take it away from them yet again this time around.

IMO only.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
And to whomever said that Kwan still has to qualify for the Olympic team- you can't possibly think for a second that the US will leave her off the team! :laugh: Yes, she still has to show up and skate, but THAT'S ALL. She is that good, folks- nationally, anyway. She can do whatever she wants- even sleep for four minutes- and the other competitors will squander their opportunities- count on it. :yes:

But- in all seriousness, I believe Kwan and Cohen are locks for the U.S. team. I can't see why, given their results at worlds, they would be left off of the team. A bad or mediocre performance will be forgiven. It's that third spot that has to be fought for. I think that kwan will win, no doubt. Cohen might be 2nd or 3rd depending on how much she flubs (and if the third competitor can step up her game), but trust me- she'll be on the team.
 

Grgranny

Da' Spellin' Homegirl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
When I see negative posts, the first thing I think of is "is this person12 or 13?". Many times I go to the public profile to check it out. A lot of times if they're well written, I'm pretty sure they must be older than that. I try to just put the ones I'm pretty sure are that young out of my mind as I have better things to do. Most "old timers" on this board probably remember my thoughts on how this will affect them as they mature and will harm them in the future if they don't improve. You get your first impression on how you look, especially if you're neat or sloppy and then on how they speak and whether your looks are calm, angry, etc. I know I have to work on my negativity. When I first look at something, I see what is wrong with it. Took many years to come to that conclusion. It also was really hard to try to change it. My husband actually quit showing me the jewelry he made when he finished it because I would tell him what was wrong with it. :rofl:
He definitely wasn't a neatnik. :rofl: I hope this isn't too OT. It just seemed like a good time to put it in.

I don't think there could be a skater whom I would truly dislike their skating. I enjoy all of it. I know that I have always loved Michelle's skating and it just breaks my heart when she flubs up. As far as Irina is concerned, she does some things very well and others not so well. Who doesn't? There are those who come across - to me - as snobby, etc. But I can still enjoy what they do well. I do have to admit that I have a problem with people whose egos are too big. My biggest problem is that I am too hard on myself. One thing I cannot do is forgive myself. Sorry to be getting on my rant table. I just hope that this helps someone, especially the younger ones, to think how they're coming across.

I love you all, even if you don't like Michelle. :rofl: :love:

Now please, just spell DEFINITELY correctly. Or is it correct? :rofl:
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
My major problem with Irina (and I am not against her winning) is the lack of flow in her program. Each element is so carefully set up that it takes away completely from any kind of choreography there is (including the dealing of cards).

Even her best trick, the three turns into the loop so carefuly set up to make the third one in the combo the best for take off.

Which is one of the timer exercises to get kids doing triple loop. I've seen lots of kids and coaches discussing the series of three turns as helping the kids get the timing for the triple loop and also helps with the rotation.

A little like the forward scratch in triple sal that Klimkin does...only he actually lands the jumps - i've never seen one the kids land a triple from it but most of the kids i know who have gotten a triple sal first got the full three rotations from the front scratch, salchow, land in backspin position and keep spinning for a couple of revs then hop out of the back spin.

Ant
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
antmanb said:
Which is one of the timer exercises to get kids doing triple loop. I've seen lots of kids and coaches discussing the series of three turns as helping the kids get the timing for the triple loop and also helps with the rotation.

A little like the forward scratch in triple sal that Klimkin does...only he actually lands the jumps - i've never seen one the kids land a triple from it but most of the kids i know who have gotten a triple sal first got the full three rotations from the front scratch, salchow, land in backspin position and keep spinning for a couple of revs then hop out of the back spin.Ant
Way back when I skated, I remember doing both loop jumps and salchows from three turns. Forward Inside for the loop and Forward Outside for the salchow. It was a learning tool for skater wannabees.

I actually like Irina's series of 3 turns into the triple loop. I just wish she would make it less obvious. I think it is the 3 turns that could use some interesting body position and speed to make the element flow.

Joe
 
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