Mao, is she really that great?

Excidra2001 · Jul 14, 2005

I'm all for it when it comes to new talent, new blood. But it seems to me that Mao is being over-hyped by everyone and their grand-parents. Is the hype warranted, or not? We have seen some promising Junior ladies world champions in the past, but everyone knew that it would take a few years for that Junior champion to catch up with the big guns. With a lot of people, Mao is the exception. It seems they can not wait to see her step on the ice and start competing against the top senior ladies, some even say she will come out on top.
I've seen videos of Mao's freeskate, she is very talented, don't get me wrong, but to me, she has not developed that power,presence and a few things that make the top senior ladies stand out.

I think the NJS is kind of fooling a lot of people. With the 6.0 system, Junior ladies champion was never getting say a, 5.9 for presention, a mark the top senior ladies receive each time they skate clean. With the NJS since everything is in total numbers, it gets kind of confusing when say a top Senior lady receives 120.00 for a clean free-skate, while a junior like Mao receives a 119.50 for a clean skate as well. The marks are close, yes, but the Senior lady is competing and is being compared to the other top senior ladies, while top junior ladies are not as developed in many ways as the senior ladies, plus I hear judges who judge in the junior rank are more lenient.

What does everyone think about all this?

Crizzy · Jul 14, 2005

Mao is a good skater but I wouldn't go as far as saying she's "artistic". Because artistry is in the eye of the beholder. So maybe to some they view Mao as an artist but to me she's a talented young skater who will do many great things in the years to come. Her program at 2005 Junior Worlds was cutesy but comparing her footwork to the top ladies is not as complex. Her spiral sequence is not up to par to some senior ladies. It wasn't as fast nor as deep edge as Kwan and Slutskaya. Her extension isn't like Kwan's or Cohen's but she definitely has better edge than Cohen and some senior ladies.

She really sells her program with her youth and contagious exhuberant. Mao is not too far behind the top ladies but I wouldn't say she has already surpass them either. She still needs maturity and I'm not just talking about her figure. Her spins are good. I just don't know about the lazy leg on her layback but she has a great back posture on that layback. The things that Mao seem to have are focus and determination. So far it seems that nothing fazes her. Then again she hasn't had the opportunity of defending a title in the senior ranks where it can be a pressure cooker.

Actually, Mao's great competitor is Yu Na Kim. She has great presentation skills but she seemed to be burn out from her federation. Kimmie has the 3x well sort of but if she can fix her spins, spirals and mindset she can give Mao a run for her money. Emily Hughes is quite mature in her skating style. Another thing is I don't like how Mao's leg swing during landing. It scares me that her leg is just gonna buckle like Bambi but she has such good edge control that she always manages to land. So who knows if she can live up to the hype but I'm hoping she will.

chuckm · Jul 14, 2005

Look at Mao Asada's PCS scores for the Junior Worlds FS and compare them to the top ladies' Worlds FS PCS scores:

66.07 [ 8.43 7.93 8.43 8.21 8.29 ] Irina
62.12 [ 7.96 7.50 7.75 7.75 7.86 ] Sasha
59.36 [ 7.68 7.18 7.39 7.39 7.46 ] Michelle
58.35 [ 7.54 7.04 7.43 7.21 7.25 ] Carolina
58.35 [ 7.50 7.07 7.36 7.25 7.29 ] Fumie
56.73 [ 7.32 6.96 7.07 7.04 7.07 ] Shizuka
56.40 [ 7.18 6.75 7.18 7.00 7.14 ] Mao
55.88 [ 7.21 6.82 7.00 6.93 6.96 ] Elena S
54.62 [ 7.00 6.71 6.79 6.75 6.89 ] Susanna
54.40 [ 7.07 6.68 6.79 6.75 6.71 ] Miki

Mao's scores are exceptional for a Junior skater, but not quite on par with the top Senior ladies, and Mao had a cleaner skate than some of the ladies who topped her. We will get a true picture of Mao as a Senior during the GP this season, but right now, this is all we have to go by.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 14, 2005

I still think we should wait until we see this lady skate. She will be in at least one of GPs and she will be in it with senior ladies! and she will be judged on her tecnical and presentation. If you believe in the principle of the CoP, she will be judged without comparison.

(In my case, of course, I do not believe there will be no comparison, but then I am an old curmedgeon.)

Joe

Doggygirl · Jul 14, 2005

IMO, Mao is exceptional for her age. I am excited to see her join the senior ranks, and also to see what the off season brings for her by way of improvements in some non-jump elements and presentation qualities. Whether she will fulfill the hype and the promise remains to be seen, but I hope / suspect she will add something fresh to the mix! (along with the many other up and coming junior ladies)

DG

Mathman · Jul 14, 2005

Mao, is she really that great?

Yes. :love:

As we have seen, in senior ladies the presentation scores pretty much track the technical scores. The way to get an 8.0 in Choreography is to do a triple-triple.

Mao should get at least an 8.5 in Interpretation for how she "interprets" that triple Axel!

As Excidra points out, the scoring is probably a lot different for junior competitions, so we can't really go by the CoP numbers. Still, Mao's jumps had a 44.2 base value (it would have been more, but she missed her Lutz combo), she got all level 2's on her spins and step sequences, and she did a triple loop in combination (topping Michelle in all of these categories).

By the way, speaking of the CoP rules, in Mao's world juniors perfromance, her second element (after her successful and squeeky clean triple Axel!) was, I believe, supposed to be a Triple Lutz/triple ??? combo. She was not able to get off the second jump, so she just got credit for a solo triple Lutz (6.0 points).

Later in the program she had scheduled her solo triple Lutz, which she completed. This was listed as a "combo" because she had already done a triple Lutz earlier. She got 6.6 points, including the 10% extra for a program highlight late in the program.

So in other words, the CoP counted her failed combo as a solo jump, and it counted her solo jump a failed combo.

In any case, she got a total of 12.6 points for doing two solo triple Lutzes, plus positive GOEs for each, no Zayak violation, and all she lost was a couple of points that she might have added on if she had been able to tack a double onto her first attempt.

Joe said:
She will be in at least one of GPs and she will be in it with senior ladies! and she will be judged on her tecnical and presentation.

Talk about a baptism by fire! Her first event is Cup of China against Slutskaya, Kwan and Arakawa. Her second GP outing is NHK, where she faces Cohen, Arakawa and Rochette (also Meissner).

If she lands anywhere near the podium it will be quite an accomplishment for the young lady.

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 14, 2005

Mathman said:
By the way, speaking of the CoP rules, in Mao's world juniors perfromance, her second element (after her successful and squeeky clean triple Axel!) was, I believe, supposed to be a Triple Lutz/triple ??? combo. She was not able to get off the second jump, so she just got credit for a solo triple Lutz (6.0 points).

Later in the program she had scheduled her solo triple Lutz, which she completed. This was listed as a "combo" because she had already done a triple Lutz earlier. She got 6.6 points, including the 10% extra for a program highlight late in the program.

So in other words, the CoP counted her failed combo as a solo jump, and it counted her solo jump a failed combo.

In any case, she got a total of 12.6 points for doing two solo triple Lutzes, plus positive GOEs for each, no Zayak violation, and all she lost was a couple of points that she might have added on if she had been able to tack a double onto her first attempt. Mathman

That's part of our discussion on combos! Extra points for your jump whether your combo was real or imaginary. And absolutely no penalty for missing a combo! No doubt she got extra GoEs because the missing combo was late in the program.yeah. That's the way to go. ez points.

Joe

btw. Does it saysomewhere in the final tally that the missed combo was listed?

Joe

mzheng · Jul 14, 2005

Yes. She is really good. I just watched her JWC tape couple of weeks ago. Her jumps looked really easy and light. Even that 3 axel. With good run out. As far as power and presentation skill wise. Though not compare to the top senior ladies. But given another year or so, she definitely will be there. Put it in another word that non of current top senior lady had the same basics skating skill and presentation skills as Mao has at the same age. Kim is not bad either, as far as natural musicality goes Kim is better than Mao. Given their Asian heritage (the living env and diary habit), IMO, their body type weren't change too much in next a few years. Without injury, they may keep their jump ability in foreseen future.

hockeyfan228 · Jul 14, 2005

Joesitz said:
That's part of our discussion on combos! Extra points for your jump whether your combo was real or imaginary. And absolutely no penalty for missing a combo!

No one gets "extra points" for a missing combo. The skater gets the number of points for the jump landed, and loses the opportunity cost of the extra jump.

What the skater is not penalized for is having two solo jumps in violation of the Zayak rule.

screech · Jul 14, 2005

Mao is undeniably talented - someone would have to be a fool to disagree. However, I personally don't think she's as great as she's made out to be. I much prefer the skating style of Yu Na Kim who I find has equally great jumps (except the arguably underroted triple axel - notice I said ARGUABLY), but also has better spins (at least much faster speed in them, as well as great positions) and I much prefer Yu Na's presentation. I just find that I enjoy the experience a lot more when I'm watching Yu Na than when I'm watching Mao.

Jhar55 · Jul 14, 2005

Only seen her skate once back in 2003-04 season. She skated very good and looked very promising.
Was she injured this last season? and that would be why I didn't catch her.

soogar · Jul 14, 2005

I am not on the Mao bandwagon and she has a long way to go before she can even come close to a 3 loopless Michelle Kwan. I am not impressed with Mao's jumps at all. Compared to a 9 year old Midori (a true jump prodigy), Mao falls short. Mao's sister just retired from skating because she grew too tall and was having problems with her jumps. Right now Mao is just a little girl with underrotated jumps and her presentation and speed on the ice (at least on video) isn't good enough to compete with the top senior ladies.

I wish the Japanese federation would quit hyping their skaters before they have achieved serious results. All the talk about the Japanese senior ladies at Worlds this year and the two skaters who received the most hype fell short (Miki and Shizuka). Only unheralded Fumie got the highest placement of the 3 and she wasn't on the podium.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 14, 2005

It

hockeyfan228 said:
No one gets "extra points" for a missing combo. The skater gets the number of points for the jump landed, and loses the opportunity cost of the extra jump.

What the skater is not penalized for is having two solo jumps in violation of the Zayak rule.

Ya gotta admit. It's the way to beat the Zayak rule and get more points!! They don't have to be maximum; just enough to beat the field.
Hockdeyfan - Check out MM's post. I believe he wrote that Mao got 6.6 for the second lutz which was purported to be part of a combo. That included extra points. I don't know which one of you is right but I'm trying to learn this dang thing.

I'm aware that combos in and of themselves are not for scoring. I just think they should be and have a total value if completed and zilch if they are not. No credit for half a combo. JMO. It's like my other hang up of doing a flip instead of a lutz but getting credit for the lutz albeit with a small penalty. I really try to think of figure skating as a sport but more and more I see it for little girls only. It's not like other sports.

Joe

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 15, 2005

I'm looking forward to Mao's skate and check out that underrotated business which is beginning to get hold of nonfans of Mao. I doubt a tape would show the entire take off and landing. And live would if the skater jumps near you.

Joe

bdreampixie · Jul 15, 2005

soogar, I pretty much agree with everything you said.

Watching JWorlds, I was neither impressed with Kim nor with Asada. I was most impressed with Amanda Billings, though to be fair she is much older. I just don't see that spark in Kim or Asada that we saw in a 14 year old Tara or Michelle. I don't see the supposed artistry that people rave about in those two skaters. Presentation wise IMO Kimmie is way ahead of them. Some of their jumps look a bit cheated to me, but I've only seen JWorlds so I don't know if this is how they execute them usually. Mao has a lot of potential, but as of right now I don't think she lives up to the hype.

shine · Jul 15, 2005

bdreampixie said:
soogar, I pretty much agree with everything you said.

Watching JWorlds, I was neither impressed with Kim nor with Asada. I was most impressed with Amanda Billings, though to be fair she is much older. I just don't see that spark in Kim or Asada that we saw in a 14 year old Tara or Michelle. I don't see the supposed artistry that people rave about in those two skaters. Presentation wise IMO Kimmie is way ahead of them. Some of their jumps look a bit cheated to me, but I've only seen JWorlds so I don't know if this is how they execute them usually. Mao has a lot of potential, but as of right now I don't think she lives up to the hype.

Someone finally speaks the truth! :rock:

I agree with pretty much everything said in this post, except that I actually really like Kim's skating (at least much more than I do Asada's). Amanda Billings IS a great talent, she's got the look but she really needs more experience and A LOT more consistency with her jumps--right now she just seems like as thought she's afraid to land them.
I also just can't understand how some people can go on and on about Asada and Kim while dismissing Meissner as a jumping bean or someone with far inferior presentation--IMO it's just the opposite. Her elegance is so apparent and her technique rock solid. Her posture is really second to none, and I think she's a much more mature skater than the other two.

Jaana · Jul 15, 2005

I saw Mao´s short programme and freeskate in Junior GP finale and was extremely impressed by this young skater. There she was a head above the rest of those junior skaters. In my opinion she though should be compared to her peers in this moment, and not to much older skaters. She still is a junior skater, although she will compete in one senior GP event this fall. While being a junior skater, didn´t she fare rather well against seniors in Japan Nationals?

Mathman · Jul 15, 2005

Jaana said:
While being a junior skater, didn´t she fare rather well against seniors in Japan Nationals?

She finished second to Miki Ando, edging out Fumie 166.92 to 166.54. (Arakawa withdrew due to injury, after winning the short.)

BTW, in the 2002 national senior championships, Mao came in as the defending novice championion at age 11. She did a triple Axel and a triple Lutz/triple Loop combo to finish seventh.

soogar · Jul 15, 2005

Mathman said:
She finished second to Miki Ando, edging out Fumie 166.92 to 166.54. (Arakawa withdrew due to injury, after winning the short.)

BTW, in the 2002 national senior championships, Mao came in as the defending novice championion at age 11. She did a triple Axel and a triple Lutz/triple Loop combo to finish seventh.

Mao did a 3 axle and 3-3 combo that were both heavily underrotated. I wouldn't go by Japanese Nationals unless you've seen it in person or on video b/c I suspect that they push their favorites heavily at Nats (just like they do in the US Nats as well).

I'm not a Mao non-fan at all. I think she's a precious little girl and a very good skater. However I just don't feel people are looking at this girl's skating realistically. People keep saying how she's going to kick MK's a$$ when they compete in COC but I feel she is a very long way from being a top senior. Compared to kids she's great, but she will be seen with different eyes when she competes against a seasoned senior skater like MK.

antmanb · Jul 15, 2005

Mathman said:
She finished second to Miki Ando, edging out Fumie 166.92 to 166.54. (Arakawa withdrew due to injury, after winning the short.)

BTW, in the 2002 national senior championships, Mao came in as the defending novice championion at age 11. She did a triple Axel and a triple Lutz/triple Loop combo to finish seventh.

And also a triple flip/triple loop/triple toe in the same program. The triple axel was nearly a half turn cheated on the landing though. Still it has to be the most difficult program a "lady" has ever perfrmed in terms of jumps.

Ant

Mao, is she really that great?

Excidra2001

Crizzy

chuckm

Joesitz (RIP)

Doggygirl

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

mzheng

hockeyfan228

screech

Jhar55

soogar

Joesitz (RIP)

Joesitz (RIP)

bdreampixie

shine

Jaana

Mathman

soogar

antmanb

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