OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

Check it out! This is from her SP in the Hallmark competition. Super-extension or not, get a load of her edge!!!

www1.odn.ne.jp/~cam04900/20274123.jpg

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

Thanks! Irina's one of my favorite skater. She's started off not so well this year; probably due to touring which means getting into poor habits.

She is dynamite!

sh

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

<span style="color:maroon;font-family:century gothic;font-size:medium;">That's wonderful! I love it, and her, so much. </span>

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

It looks like its out of the hip socket and not in the correct ballet position to call it an arabesque. Check out Sasha's - a true spiral/arabesque

However, I have to add during the COR performance I noticed that Irina is holding the edge longer and that is a big improvement.

Joe

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

<span style="color:red;font-family:comic sans ms;font-size:medium;">Great picture. She is using her edge well. Go Irina! Ladskater</span>

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

Joe,
are you sure you don't have Sasha and Irina's names mixed up?
Irina is known for the deep edge and speed on her spiral. She is capable of spiraling across the entire ice surface like what she did in her DQ program.

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

Zowee! Thanks, Icenut! This is one of the things I love about Irina. For me she is about the speed and the movement as it happens rather than the positions (not that one is better than the other; it's just Irina's forté--and what a forté it is!).

As for the hip placement: If you look at all the skaters, none of them get a truly squared off arabesque position when they get a deep edge. Very few get a true arabesque on the flat:lol: For me, it's the combination of edge (lean), speed, line, and height. Different skaters are strong in different areas. Irina has speed and lean and acceleration (only skater I've seen who can accelerate in her spiral positions). The leg isn't as high as others and the line isn't as clean, but the power and edge she gets is phenomenal! Thanks for finding this photo that demonstrates it so well. I know some people wonder why Irina gets high marks for presentation. For myself, having seen her a lot in person, I know that a lot of her greatest qualities don't show up well on TV. When you know the judges are seeing edges like this, I think it makes Irina's presentation scores make more sense--within a good program, of course

But love that photo!
Rgirl

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

If she held the spiral positions longer, they would be more effective. She is a technically talented skater.

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

The hip position's wrong and she needs to arch her back more, but it is much improved.

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

Alright, 'Rina! Good job! Ya got the edge! Now, FIX THAT DAMN LINE!!!!

Work on the symmetry, girl! SYMMETRY!!!!!

DC

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

Very very impressive photo.

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

Just WONDERFUL!!!

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

<span style="colorurple;font-family:comic sans ms;font-size:small;">Why, oh, why can she not lift that leg up higher? She's flexible enough to do Beilmanns on both legs and yet she can't lift it to a decent height in a spiral. WHY NOT?</span>

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

Shine - Check your tapes, Irina never held her spiral more than two seconds prior to this season. It has nothing to do with speed or the edge. That picture looked good for the edge. Speed is another topic if you wish to start a thread. I don't think there will dissenters.

Joe

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

*tilts head to the right* That's one hell of an edge!

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

But is the leg behind her butt or sticking out to the right? If you studied ballet, you'd know where that leg should be. Check out Cohen, she has an arabasque on ice.

Joe

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

Rgal,
Putting my master's degree to some use:lol: : Flexibility is specific. That is, someone can have a very flexible spine for arching and holding her leg up, ie, Irina and Beillmann and layback spins, but holding up the leg in a high arabesque position requires a different kind of flexibility plus strength. Irina's hips are tight when extended to the back and I think this is the problem. But all skaters have their flexibility limitations--okay, Sasha has very few:lol: --but some are more noticeable. Michelle can get her leg high in back, but she doesn't have the flexibility for a classic layback (ie, with the free leg high and turned out, like Sasha, Sarah, and Angela).

As for the "correct" arabesque position: Yes, Irina's free leg is somewhat out to the side (abducted), but if you watch any skater in the "arabesque" spiral position with a deep outside edge, the free leg always abducts, even Sasha's. It helps the skater maintain balance. Also, looking at photos can be deceptive. The position of the hips/legs can change depending on where the skater is in the spiral sequence. If they are "rounding the bend" or going into the deepest part of the edge, they make adjustments for speed and balance. That's why it's hard to compare ballet and skating positions. A ballerina in an arabesque is not traveling along the ice on a narrow blade and trying for a lot of inside or outside lean on the edge. Anyway, like Joe said, the photo is to show the phenomenal edge quality. Line as never been Irina's strong point and nobody is saying it is. One of Sasha's strengths is her line, no doubt about that (althought now that I say it, I'm sure somebody will disagree:lol: ). Anyway, here are two links to some okay but not great examples of spirals (Google kind of sucks with skating examples, but it's fast!):

images.google.com/images?...gle+Search
images.google.com/images?...8&filter=0

On the second link, there are two photos of Michelle's spiral. On those you can see the abducted leg (leg out to the side) as well. I couldn't find photos that show Sasha and Sarah's spirals from an angle that shows the abducted leg, but I have it on tape. Anyway, like I said, photos can be deceptive and for me, a slightly abducted free leg is not a problem. Even a grossly abducted free leg is not a problem for me if the skater is going for a killer edge
Rgirl

Re: OMG, check out Irina's spiral!

That's why Irina is awarded big points when it comes to spirals. Sasha's spiral is lovely to watch, but she doens't achieve the deep edges Irina does. The only other skater who does achieve those deep edges on their spirals, is Michelle kwan.

Did scoring change

Did scoring change while I wasn't looking? Are skaters now awarded points for individual movements?

If a judge likes a skater's spiral or layback or axle or whatever, how would we know? Don't they just get one score for technical and one score for presentation, and isn't that score a comparison score against the other skaters and not a universal score as in "these criteria equal 6.0"?

Linny

Re: Scoring

Skaters of course get one score for tech and one for presentation, but each score is based on the judge's assessment of various individual elements and their cumulative effect in creating the whole. I don't know that that's anywhere in the USFSA judging protocols, but that's how I understand it. I think people were just using phrases like "This is why Irina gets high scores" as a figure of speech, not a direct example of judging. A skater who has great speed and deep edges throughout her program is going to have a higher base mark than one who is slow and has shallow edges. However, the slower, more shallow-edged skater might have better line than the fast, deep-edged skater. It all goes into the mix. At least, we think it does, since nobody really knows what goes on in judging:lol:

I know for myself, the photo gave me the opportunity to share with others one aspect of what I've seen watching Irina skate live. Great lean doesn't show up very well on TV, nor do a lot of things, but when you see it live and you viscerally feel the excitement it generates, you say to yourself, "Ah! This is what the judges are so impressed with!" because you are so impressed yourself. By "this" I don't just mean the edges; I mean the speed, ice coverage, edge quality, movement quality, jumps, footwork, connection to the audience, everything. But in the case of this photo, Irina's phenomenal edge quality was highlighted.
Rgirl