Why do you dislike Navka/Kostomarov?

Sorry, if it was already discussed ...

After reading many posts about Olys predictions I have an impression (maybe a totally wrong one) that almost everyone strongly dislikes Nav/Kos. From some comments it seems that they should not be even in top 6. And no World Champions of recent years were criticized more than them. And it is almost assumed that if they win the OGM it will be unfair, only thanks to judges' arbitrariness.
Do you really think they are such bad skaters, with no artistry and bad technique, unfairly overrated by judges? WHY do you dislike them?

I would never use the term 'not like N&K'. They are a nice team that performs their dances well. I just don't find them drop dead great! That belongs to the two D&Ss. JMO.

Joe

Oh, I don't at all agree with your premise at that people don't like Navka and Kostamarov. My impression in reading figure skating discussion boards is that this team is so obviously superior to everyone else that there is really not much to talk about.

I personally like Delobel and Schoenfelder (and of course, my all-time faves, Watanabe and Kido), but in terms of the Olympics it will be N&K and then everyone else will be skating for second place.

Some people, especially casual fans who do not really follow ice dance very much, may find their style a little too formal, especially compared to the youthful elan of Belbin and Agosto. But if you want to talk about politics and judging deals, I think the rapid rise of B&A has something to do with the desire on the part of the ISU to let the U.S.A. into the game.

JMO.

Mathman

I think they are in the first place with right, but there are some little things I don`t like in their skate: I think that Roman has sometimes bad and unelegant positions for example in the circular footwork where he pushes with the toe often . Another point is their last lift, although it seems very difficult I dont find it especially estetic. But I must say for me, Tatianna navka is the most elegant female ice dancer now. So, I don`t criticize their placement but I think they are not far away from zhe other couples.

Shanti said:

After reading many posts about Olys predictions I have an impression (maybe a totally wrong one) that almost everyone strongly dislikes Nav/Kos.

Click to expand...

Thank you, Shanti! I completely agree that N/K have no fan support anywhere that I have seen. I have noticed the overwhelming disgust for N/K. Some reasons I have gathered from reading posts here and elsewhere:

1) People distrust all ice dance judging and consider any repeat winners to be cheaters, don't consider ice dance to be a true sport, think it should be disbanded, think ice dancers are not athletes

2) Roman makes mistakes on his twizzles, one of the few ice dance errors perceptible to non-experts, so those who see him mess up and win believe he is cheating

3) People hate Zhulin for his adulterous ways, think he is unattractive but ends up with attractive women, believe he is influencing the judges to help his team cheat

4) Fans of other teams believe N/K win by default because of their body type, not because of superior skill or artistry, general feeling that they are extremely subpar technically compared to other teams who are held down

5) Belief that N/K dominance is eastern bloc judging, continued Russian dominance in ice dance through cheating and collusion of corrupt judges selling out worthier teams to win in other disciplines

6) Navka fans feel Roman is unworthy to skate with her, Russian press holds her in high esteem, despises Roman as a consequence

7) General blame for perpetuating everything that is wrong with ice dance: Overly dramatic, unattractive lifts, ugly makeup, costumes

8) Disinterest in them for choosing boring music, not pushing the sport in new directions, resting on their laurels, biding time until they get their gold medal by default and cheating

9) Navka backlash from those who don't think she deserves praise from the Russian press, consider her unattractive, unskilled, untalented

10) Navka backlash from those who think she is only praised for her beauty, not for her skating abilities; belief she only got to the top because of her looks when Zhulin took an interest and used his influence to make her a champion by cheating

11) People who are otherwise skating fans hate ice dance and thus hate N/K by default and direct their hatred of ice dance at N/K because they are the most visible representatives

12) Frustration/Boredom in face of expected Russian sweep in Torino with Irina, Plush, T/M. Patriotic fans from other countries want to see at least one of the Russians go down, N/K are the easist targets

13) Belief that any former Soviets who win are cheaters (Petrenko, Oksana, Urmanov, B/S, all Russian ice dance champs) See Scott Hamilton

14) Other beliefs that N/K are poor sportsmen, cocky SOBs, poor representatives of the sport, lazy in training, unattractive, criminals, disloyal to mother Russia, do not give back, selfish, sloppy on the ice, immoral in their personal lives, vindictive, mean-spirited, money-grubbing, unintelligent, no fashion sense

Feel free to add your own! If any N/K fans actually exist, make yourselves known, if you dare!

brad640 said:

14) Other beliefs that N/K are poor sportsmen, cocky SOBs, poor representatives of the sport, lazy in training, unattractive, criminals, disloyal to mother Russia, do not give back, selfish, sloppy on the ice, immoral in their personal lives, vindictive, mean-spirited, money-grubbing, unintelligent, no fashion sense

Feel free to add your own! If any N/K fans actually exist, make yourselves known, if you dare!

Click to expand...

Whoo! That - and the other 13 points are a mouthful, Brad, LOL! But good topic - because god knows it's been a slooooow week or two.
I think Tatiana is admired/disliked because of her oustanding looks. Let's face it -how many 30-year old Moms look like she does? (See Russian "Maxim" magazine semi-nude shots for supporting evidence) However, what they're missing is that she was once a fairly unremarkable looking girl. I praise her unique ability to actually get better looking as she gets older AND to be totally buff after having had a baby (not an easy thing to do I know from having once been a 30-year old Mom).

Because she can sometimes posess a 'Diva-esque' personality, it rubs people the wrong way - but again, I like it - what the hell - it's ice dancing - you get points for being a queen Diva!

And even though folks criticize Roman for not being as strong a skater/peformer as Tatiana, he's doing what he's supposed to do in ice dance - he's 'presenting' his partner, and he does that well - unlike, for instance - Tchernyshev, who was so goodlooking you sometimes forgot to notice he actually HAD a partner out there.

For me if they miss anything - it's that they could certainly be stronger in presenting a 'connection' to each other in some way - that seems frequently missing.

Now Zhulin - still devastatingly handsome and charasmatic at what....age 43?...that's another story entirely, LOL - he was skating's ultimate badboy and damn if this sport wouldn't be a lot more interesting with a few more just like him.

While I don't dislike them, I do not consider them "one of the greats". They are pleasant to watch, most of their wins are deserved, but I'd say that any of the previous Olympic champs would have beat N&K hands down. This year, I'd say the only time I completely disagreed with N&K's placement was at trophee Bompard - they were sloppy, others were not, yet they won anyway. Also, I certainly believe there is a lot of unfair judging going on in ice dancing, especially in regards to Den & Sta. I did not like their FD this season, but looking at components scores from Worlds is kind of ridiculous - most below 7 on all segments of the competition. None of which is a bad reflection on N&K.

Zanzibar said:

Now Zhulin - still devastatingly handsome and charasmatic at what....age 43?...that's another story entirely, LOL - he was skating's ultimate badboy and damn if this sport wouldn't be a lot more interesting with a few more just like him.

Click to expand...

ITA that more badboys (and gals) would certainly make things more interesting. Zhulin reminds me of a little toad and IMO fate has been very kind to him as far as beautiful women go (Usova and Navka that is...I don't get Gritchuk either,LOL).

I think there is still some anti-Russian bias -- and there isn't anything protecting N/K from it. There are certain Russians who are accepted as being the best (Yags, Plushy); they get spared. Even if you were biased, you can't target Irina any more, with the comeback of the century, working her tail off to get her mom a kidney transplant; and the same applies to TT & MM after the fall. That leaves N/K -- until the ISU really decides to renew interest in skating by letting Tonya Harding compete!

I don't feel any anti-Russian bias exist in terms of commentating or judging Navka/Kostomarov. They are a kind of new dance team and came to the scene just for two or three years, unlike other dance teams who have or had been around for almost ten years or even more. Some of them had been through two Olympics. Skating fans watched them years after years. Plus Since N&K competeing, the TV network began show less and less competitions. One important thing that N&K should consider improving is their connection with the audience. They are fast and atheletic, but they don't really communicate with the people who are watching and judging their skating.

I really believe that a lot of people like N/K fine, but that's just it, they like them OK. They are a lovely couple, they are extremely competent and efficient on the ice (which makes what they do look easier than it actually is) and they are a great looking couple. That all being said, my opinion of them is that they just lack the "magic spark" that puts them in the category of "the greats."

They have lovely line, but it's not the lovely (what I beleive to be genetic) line of the Duchenneys. They have grace, but not the grace of a Usava/Platov team. They have ambitious programs, but they fall short of the great ambitions of Bourne /Katz (though they only had one world championship) They are the cream of the current crop, however I think there are teams with greater potential to make it to the stratosphere of the ice dance world.

They are in the great tradition of Russian Ice Dancing, there is no denying that. It's just my opinon that people tend to get excited about the more dynamic moving teams in the standing. We cheer for B/A, not only because they are our representatives in the sport, but because their improvement has been so noticible and rapid. We cheer for the palpible passion of D/B, and for the abandon & control of the Bulgarians.

They certainly deserve every medal and award they have won. I don't have any disagreement with any of their placements. If B/A stay healthy I do think they will overtake them in the next year or two....just an opinion. I would, however, ask that if they continue to win that they choose more wisely in their music than they did last year. If they ever make a skating/horror flick it should be called "Attack of the Killer Nesum Dorma"...That piece of music should have 10 points deducted in the new CoP if anyone skates it. It's so overused, some bright composer ought to reinvent it and name it "Requiem for a Warhorse." :sheesh:

sk8m8 said:

If they ever make a skating/horror flick it should be called "Attack of the Killer Nesum Dorma"...That piece of music should have 10 points deducted in the new CoP if anyone skates it. It's so overused, some bright composer ought to reinvent it and name it "Requiem for a Warhorse." :sheesh:

Click to expand...

Wrong Puccini opera. "Nessun Dorma" is from Turandot. Navka/Kostamarov skated to music from Tosca, which has also been used before in skating, but not as often. Well, they both start with T.

sk8m8 said:

I really believe that a lot of people like N/K fine, but that's just it, they like them OK. They are a lovely couple, they are extremely competent and efficient on the ice (which makes what they do look easier than it actually is) and they are a great looking couple. That all being said, my opinion of them is that they just lack the "magic spark" that puts them in the category of "the greats."

Click to expand...

That's an excellent way of putting it. For me, when I watch them, the words, STIFF, WOODEN & MECHANICAL come to mind. I just get bored, that's all.

I stand corrected, yes I meant the dreaded Turandot...may it could be "Requiem for the WarhorseS"....just a thought. My actual thought when they the couple came on the ice and the TV commentators announced it, I thought to myself....
"They're gonna dance to that???" To me, they had to skate better than everyone else just to win with that musical choice.

I don't dislike them, but I don't think they are one of the all-time greats, either. While Roman is good, she is a better skater, and I like to see more balance. I think their results have often been correct, but I believethe 2004 World title should have gone to D&S. I think both D&S teams are more skilled, so it frustrates me to see them behind N&K. N&K are medal worthy teams, but I don't think the medal should always be gold.

I'm also frustrated with the quality of ice dance programs over the last two years. I think the new system is taking a lot of the creativity and spark out of ice dancing. Maybe N&K are just feeling the brunt of people's views about ice dancing in general.

Mathman said:

Oh, I don't at all agree with your premise at that people don't like Navka and Kostamarov. My impression in reading figure skating discussion boards is that this team is so obviously superior to everyone else that there is really not much to talk about.

I personally like Delobel and Schoenfelder (and of course, my all-time faves, Watanabe and Kido), but in terms of the Olympics it will be N&K and then everyone else will be skating for second place.

Some people, especially casual fans who do not really follow ice dance very much, may find their style a little too formal, especially compared to the youthful elan of Belbin and Agosto. But if you want to talk about politics and judging deals, I think the rapid rise of B&A has something to do with the desire on the part of the ISU to let the U.S.A. into the game.

JMO.

Mathman

Click to expand...

I am one of those casual dance fans that you mentioned. Now that my fan status has been qualified, I am LOL that I read your middle paragraph as saying "Want-ta-be and Kiddo!" I know that's vastly incorrect, but that's my silliness coming out in preparation for the season opener.

While I'm at it, and the Cheesefests are being heavily discussed (who's participating in what - Japan v. Campbell's, GPS, etc.) I sure wish that Pairs and Dance were in the non-GP Cheesefest mix! I really do love watching all diciplines, even though my "brain" is better with singles.

DG

I don´t dislike Navka & Kostomarov, but I enjoy watching the skating and how they look on the ice in some other ice dance pairs (e.g. Denkova & Staviski, Belbin & Agosto, Delobel & Schoenfelder and Chait & Sakhnovski) much, much more. These skaters feel more natural somehow.

I dislike Roman's sloppiness (not always, not every second, but more than I like for gold medallists).

I dislike their facial expressions. Often I think Roman rather wants to be somewhere else (with this wife??).

I sometimes dislike their "interpretation" of music. When I first watched Turandot I was ANGRY. They chose slow parts of the music but rushed thru them as if they wanted to finish early to take a break....

I dislike a lot of lifts. But that is nothing I would only say for N&K. Almost every dance couple from junior to senior was guilty in that department.

And then I often dislike judging. Mainly the components. But this is nothing exclusive to ice dance. Judges seem to be overwhelmed by what they have to judge, so the components is the last and least they do. And they tend to give about the same mark in every component whereas there is a big difference between skating skills (which could be rather high for N&K even though not as high as for Navka alone) and interpretation and choreography (which should have been a lot higher for DelSchoes than N&K at least in the end of the season).

N/K are very talented dancers and I have no dislike for them. I just don't think they are as far ahead of some other couples as the judges would have you believe. Also in some cases this season I thought PCS was used to prop them up when they didn't have the technical difficulty of other couples and their performance didn't merit it. JMO