The Triple Axel and the Ladies | Page 2 | Golden Skate

The Triple Axel and the Ladies

heyang

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Tara's rep was built on the 3L-3L - no toe assist in between.

I don't think the 3A will be required for several years for the ladies.

Come on - everyone was talking about how a 3-3 is a must have to win since 1997. In the 6.0 system, the top ladies had enough to not need it to win every competition. Sure Sarah had 3-3's at Oly's, but it was also the flaws of the top3 and Sarah's joy that gave her an edge. She's never won the gold at any other competition even when she's had a 3-3 and others didn't. COP has certainly made the 3-3 a bonus, but before COP I wouldn't say that a 3-3 was required to win, as much as everyone said it would be.

The problem with the 3A is that it's being done by junior girls with immature bodies. Throw in hips & breasts & additional height might result in losing the jump at the Senior levels.
 

Tony Wheeler

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Meissner needs to fully rotate her 3axel in competition or hopefully she will NOT get credit for a triple. It wasn't even near being rotated 3.25 times at US Nationals but we all know that she got credit. Her lutz seemed cheated to me a few times last season, as well, so it will be interesting to see her do a 3lutz/3toe and 3flip/3toe. JMO, but I think she's a lot more overhyped than someone like Kostner. Sure, she does run out of energy at the end of her free skates, but the difference between how apparent it was in 2003 to now is like night and day in my eyes. Her SP record at Worlds has been 4th, 5th, 4th, so she's excellent when it comes to that portion.

Joannie Rochette was landing a few 3Axels from time to time in practice when she was with Manon Perron. Remember, she even landed a few 4toes in the Worlds practices in 2004. Now that she's back with Perron, maybe will we see an attempt from her.
 

clonesheep

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
cianni said:
Kimmie is landing her 3 axel clean 50% of the time. I was at UofD today. - Her FS will have 3axel 3lutz/3toe 3flip/3toe.
While that sounds impressive, I have to see to believe. If her performance last season is any indication, her jumps aren't that pretty. At the Nationals, the so-called 3axel was landed awkwardly, so were a few of her other jumps. She was hyped a lot at home but has been marked rather lowly at international competitions. That's not a good sign.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Tony Wheeler said:
Meissner needs to fully rotate her 3axel in competition or hopefully she will NOT get credit for a triple. It wasn't even near being rotated 3.25 times at US Nationals but we all know that she got credit. Her lutz seemed cheated to me a few times last season, as well, so it will be interesting to see her do a 3lutz/3toe and 3flip/3toe. JMO, but I think she's a lot more overhyped than someone like Kostner. Sure, she does run out of energy at the end of her free skates, but the difference between how apparent it was in 2003 to now is like night and day in my eyes. Her SP record at Worlds has been 4th, 5th, 4th, so she's excellent when it comes to that portion.

Joannie Rochette was landing a few 3Axels from time to time in practice when she was with Manon Perron. Remember, she even landed a few 4toes in the Worlds practices in 2004. Now that she's back with Perron, maybe will we see an attempt from her.
I think we are going on the 'Get Kimmie' bandwagon. The branding has begun. Sorry Tony, but Kimmie did the 3A right in front of me in Portland. The take off was cautious, the rotations were perfect, the landing was on one foot and completed. Not the prettiest but done. Over and out.

God forbid we brand Joannie' quads. Hopefully we see them outside practice.

Joe
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
clonesheep said:
While that sounds impressive, I have to see to believe. If her performance last season is any indication, her jumps aren't that pretty. At the Nationals, the so-called 3axel was landed awkwardly, so were a few of her other jumps. She was hyped a lot at home but has been marked rather lowly at international competitions. That's not a good sign.
You will see all of Kimmie's talents soon. So be prepared. Last season was last season. I don't know why fans refuse to allow skaters to improve. I believe they just don't want someone around who could outshine their favorite. Am I correct?

Joe
 

Tony Wheeler

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Joesitz said:
I think we are going on the 'Get Kimmie' bandwagon. The branding has begun. Sorry Tony, but Kimmie did the 3A right in front of me in Portland. The take off was cautious, the rotations were perfect, the landing was on one foot and completed. Not the prettiest but done. Over and out.

The rotation was NOT perfect. You might have seen it in person, but you can just as easily go back for evidence and slo-mo your Nationals tape. It was more than a quarter turn cheated, and it would have been a double. No question there. I'm not trying to argue but just suggesting if you need proof then the videotape isn't going to lie.
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Joesitz said:
I think the jump is becoming more and more prominent and I expect by Vancouver we will see at least three attempts and maybe all of them completed. By the time we are discussing Tokyo, I believe the jump will be standard a la the 2A.

I'm hoping all you Jr Level skating fans are keeping your eye on the triple axels coming forth in 2005 grand prix series, and not just the bielman spins. Remember, good entry; good posture and full turns in the air; and good landing with good flow out.

The Triple Axels

1. Who has it now?

2. Who's working on it now?

3. Who will just never get it?

Joe


"Frankly Scarlett...." I don't care if the ladies ever land a triple axle. It is not necessary, in my opinion. Midori Ito was a phenomenal jumper - Kurt used to quip "Midori could compete with the men." Since Midori no one has really stepped up to the plate so to speak. The men struggle with the quad. Do we really want to see the frustration the ladies will go through trying to nail a triple axle? Sacrificing grace and attention to other detail for another turn in the air - not worth it for me.

Your third question - Who will never get it? says it all. Probably the majority of the ladies out there. I will be shot down for this I am sure, but I would rather watch a skater like Sasha Cohen putting all the beautiful finishing touches and graceful elements she does into her program and bypassing the triple axle.

Just call me an old school figure skater.
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Joesitz said:
I think we are going on the 'Get Kimmie' bandwagon. The branding has begun. Sorry Tony, but Kimmie did the 3A right in front of me in Portland. The take off was cautious, the rotations were perfect, the landing was on one foot and completed. Not the prettiest but done. Over and out.

God forbid we brand Joannie' quads. Hopefully we see them outside practice.

Joe

I am just stating an observation. Kimmie landed a clean triple axel during the warm up but during the performance her triple axel was very underrotated. She will land one (and more) in the future, but this one was not a completed triple axel (during the competition).
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Red Dog said:
Wow, that's quite an arsenal. What if she can pull this off in competition?

I, too, had no idea Kwan could even do a 3A. Can she still do it now?

I doubt it - i wouldn't have thought she'd even other attempting a jump in practice she has no plan in ever trying to compete...but maybe she does for fun?

Skaters being able to "do" jumps is not a huge big deal - most of the top men have landed four or five different quads in training. When joubert first showed up at worlds he'd been landing quad tow,sal, flip and lutz in training leadding up to worlds but landing one out of every handful of attempts doesn't mean its program worthy.

The british ladies champ who hasn't even broken into the top ten at worlds lands triple axels fialry regularly in practice. She's never had one scheduled in a competitive program though and struggles with her jumps in compeition.

Ant
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Vash01 said:
I am just stating an observation. Kimmie landed a clean triple axel during the warm up but during the performance her triple axel was very underrotated. She will land one (and more) in the future, but this one was not a completed triple axel (during the competition).
OK OK OK. To me it was not underrotated having seen it right in front of me. But more important. Is this the beginning of saying every 3A she does is underrotated based on one jump? because the accusation that she needs to work on her 3A to fully rotate it is implying that she doesn't complete the rotation every time. :sheesh:

Fans do worry about a new guy on the block who may be in contention to beat their favorite, and they are not permitted to improve.

Kimmie will be in a few competitions this coming season. Let's check her out before this branding becomes rampant.

Joe
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
Isn't the Worlds normally in March of the year?

My point of the 3A becoming a standard jump is that it will begin in Juniors. I think by Tokyo Worlds, Mao and Kimmie will by then be knocking them off and so will their young competitors attempting them. In 2008 the new era will be among us .

Why do I get the feeling that the fans are not all together with a podium place for Carolina? My problem with her is that she fades after 2.7 minutes. That's corrective criticism because she can learn how to keep the pace and stamina right till the end.

Joe

Well if history is anything to go by i don't think the triple axel will become a staple ladies jump. If Ito and Harding - 2 stong muscular WOMEN attempting big triple axels regularly in compeition for a couple of seasons didn't cause the jump to become a laides jump then i seriously doubt that 2 prepubescent girls attempting small barely clean triple axels will make the jump staple. I've not seen Kimmie's nationals 3A attempt but people who i know personally and who's opinions i trust said the jump was not totally clean. If doing the triple axel and getting -GOEs on it doesn't prove to be a fruitful quest then i doubt it will catch on.

Which leads to the most important point that when a jump starts becoming staple in skating - it takes a few underrotated/double footed/just about eeked out one foot attempts in competition. Under 6.0 whether the rules said that you sould or should not, people would get credit for them. I have no doubt that Elvis's 4T/3T at 1994 worlds got pretty much full credit despite being flawed. That will not happen under COP. If the jump is downgraded (and accorind gto some under CoP Kimmie's nationals 3A would have been) then there is a huge disinsentive to attempting the jump at since clean and well executed in terms of number of rotations of jumps seems to be the way over harder sloppy jumps. Which is totally different to spins!

Ant
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
You will see all of Kimmie's talents soon. So be prepared. Last season was last season. I don't know why fans refuse to allow skaters to improve. I believe they just don't want someone around who could outshine their favorite. Am I correct?

Joe

Conversely some people don't want to overhype a skater who is very talented but still very young. Overhyping can put too much pressure on a young competitor which can ruin that skaters career. I don't understand why anyone would go on and on about a skater like they're the second coming of christ when she has yet to compete in a senior international event. I don't doubt that she's good i just question the wisdom of declaring her the next bg thing - look at what the hype has done to Cohen - the pressure to deliver that elusive clean LP just gets greater and greater.

Ant
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
OK OK OK. To me it was not underrotated having seen it right in front of me. But more important. Is this the beginning of saying every 3A she does is underrotated based on one jump? because the accusation that she needs to work on her 3A to fully rotate it is implying that she doesn't complete the rotation every time. :sheesh:

Fans do worry about a new guy on the block who may be in contention to beat their favorite, and they are not permitted to improve.

Kimmie will be in a few competitions this coming season. Let's check her out before this branding becomes rampant.

Joe

I don't think anyone is branding her with anything....its just TOO SOON!!!!!

Most people have commented that in practices for nationals she was on fire and landing CLEAN...i'll say it again so that it evens out the fact i'll say underrotated twice later on this post CLEAN triple axels.

Folks are just wanting to state for the record that when people scream and shout about "the first triple axel at US nationals since Tonya" that the jump was actually underotated...that is the jump that was attempted at that competition was underotated, not that all future jumps will be presumed to be underotated until proven otherwise just that one jump.

I don't see the big deal. Surya had some very close calls on the quad toe and the quad sal but they were underotated and no-one was ready to declare her the first.

Ant
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
and where was all the hullabaloo when Tara was underrotating the consecutive loop jumps every time, and landing in squat positions?

Joe
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
and where was all the hullabaloo when Tara was underrotating the consecutive loop jumps every time, and landing in squat positions?

Joe

You're kidding right? At the time nearly every other post about tara was that the 3L/3L wasn't ever clean. For the record i agree with the staetment in respect of '97 worlds but in the '98 nagano LP that jump combination was clean as a whistle.

Come on its skating - there's always something to criticise in a prformance even if someone thinks its perfect :biggrin: .

Seriously though - some people still whinge on about Sarah Hughes's underrotated 3/3s at SLC. For me i thought one was spot on and clean and thought the other was underrotated on the landing of the 3loop but without checking the tape i forget which one was which . I think the first jump combo was clean and the second was a touch cheated but not hugely.

Ant
 

Sk8swan

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
I can tell you Carolina won't be trying a 3 axel as she has enough probs with the double! A quad is more likely and 3-3-3 even more so (she's been working on that for a few years now and landing it quite often in practice).
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
antmanb said:
If the jump is downgraded (and accorind gto some under CoP Kimmie's nationals 3A would have been) then there is a huge disinsentive to attempting the jump at since clean and well executed in terms of number of rotations of jumps seems to be the way over harder sloppy jumps. Which is totally different to spins!

Not necessarily. At Liberty I saw so many would-be higher level spins that I was all set to give a +1 in my practice-judging mind until they tried to squeak in one more feature for a higher level or even just another position and lost enough control to turn that +1 to a -1 or even -2. And sometimes they wouldn't even complete the attempted feature successfully enough for it to get credit toward the higher level.

When they see the protocols, they can do the math to figure out if they'd be better off sticking with a simpler spin and aiming for a higher GOE, or going for the higher level even with the risk of minus GOEs.

To some degree it may be worth it to a skater to risk poor GOEs on a spin they're just starting to attempt in competition to get more experience with it and more likelihood of higher GOEs later in the season. Same as with jumps that aren't totally consistent or totally clean yet in practice -- at some point you have to put it out in competition and probably fail a few times before you get it right. But if you're not capable of getting it right at all yet, then save it for practice until you are.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
gkelly said:
When they see the protocols, they can do the math to figure out if they'd be better off sticking with a simpler spin and aiming for a higher GOE, or going for the higher level even with the risk of minus GOEs.

To some degree it may be worth it to a skater to risk poor GOEs on a spin they're just starting to attempt in competition to get more experience with it and more likelihood of higher GOEs later in the season. Same as with jumps that aren't totally consistent or totally clean yet in practice -- at some point you have to put it out in competition and probably fail a few times before you get it right. But if you're not capable of getting it right at all yet, then save it for practice until you are.
Good advice for skaters and their strategy. It also is a good note for fans who believe if they see underrotated jumps it doesn't mean there will be consistent underrotated jumps in the future.

Thinking of Michael and his quad. If he rotates the 4 turns and lands it with a toe touch (which is likely), will his base score less the -GOE give him more points than if he left it out? Let's face it, points are what win these competitions, and a skater has to get points any which way he can.

Joe
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Joesitz said:
Good advice for skaters and their strategy. It also is a good note for fans who believe if they see underrotated jumps it doesn't mean there will be consistent underrotated jumps in the future.

Thinking of Michael and his quad. If he rotates the 4 turns and lands it with a toe touch (which is likely), will his base score less the -GOE give him more points than if he left it out? Let's face it, points are what win these competitions, and a skater has to get points any which way he can.

Joe

The base value for a quad toe loop is 9 points, v. 4 points for a tripple toe loop. In this particular example, it looks like Michael is better off with a quad and 2-foot landing.

DG
 
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