Campbell's International FS Classic | Page 13 | Golden Skate

Campbell's International FS Classic

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Joesitz said:
The nonfans of Kimmie are already ganging up for the Underrotated 3A and this before she even attempts it.:laugh:

Joe


it never stops.... such is the life of a skating fan ;)
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Doggygirl said:
Actually, I think the ISU rules are pretty clear. The "cutoff" for a jump to be considered fully rotated is stated as being no more than 1/4 turn under rotated. That's the technical callers job to catch. The entrances, exits, air postions, difficult entrances, etc, I believe are pretty well defined under the GOE criteria, which is the judge's job to determine. While the judges and/or technical callers may be either making mistakes, or just over looking certain things (possibly flutzing) I do believe the criteria are pretty well laid out there for a subjective sport.

Just my thoughts - I'd be interested to see if others have also read the ISU rules and have different opinions.

DG - from Pittsburgh today. :)

I haven't really read any of the rules regarding spins...my head swims enough trying to get into the jump and step sequence rules!

My comment about the flying sitspins was basically a comment that its a damn difficult spin to do "by the book" with the one and half revs - that isn't a CoP thing that's just the truth - under 6.0 the spin was still difficult and very few people actually performed it correctly* which is why in my mind its linked to the triple flutz on the basis that a large proportion (would you say more then not of the 24 at worlds?) of the ladies skaters out there flutz their lutz - to me the fact they flutz doesn't mean that they are doing a flip (i agree with the look at the set up and judge what you think they are attempting to do albeit badly!) i think they're doing a poor lutz just like a flying sit spin that's short by half a rotation is a poor attempt.

Ant

* Actually having read that i want to caveat with the fact that skaters in the 70s and 80s actually could do this spin properly - its note worthy that its the skaters who weren't in the "need 7/8 triples and quad" era who could do them becuase they were the ones who were doing fancy delay/tuck/open axels which are the building blocks to this spin. Nowadays skaters don't even try these because they're desparate to get the next ful air spin rather than make the jump they have big solid open and beautiful.
 
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antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
antmanb said:
I
* Actually having read that i ant to caveat with the fact that skaters in the 70s and 80s actually could do this spin properly - its note worthy that its the skaters who weren't in the "need 7/8 triples and quad" era who could do them becuase they were the ones who were doing fancy delay/tuck/open axels which are the building blocks to this spin. Nowadays skaters don't even try these because they're desparate to get the next ful air spin rather than make the jump they have big solid open and beautiful.

Replying to myself - the notable exception is Carolina Kostner who did that beautiful "wonder woman" axel in her exhibition at the Gran Lancia Gala in Torino.
But with CoP we certainly won't see her waste a jumping pass with a single axel will we?

Ant
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
In Skate America, for example, I've Seen Idora Hegel and Jenna McCorkle in two World Championships. I'd like to see improvements this year. They are both talented enough to improve.

Joe

Tell me about it! Jenna is a wonderful skater who tends to leave her jumps in the practice sessions. I've only seen ehr skate live at british championships where she has alway sbeen head and shoulders above the girls around her - can you tell me how she compares in an international setting speed wise - she looks really fast at national competitions but was wondering if compared to teh interantional skaters its normal/fast/slow. Also her jump height particularly on toe jumps seems to be amazing can you let me know what you think?

Cheers
Ant
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
The nonfans of Kimmie are already ganging up for the Underrotated 3A and this before she even attempts it.:laugh:

Joe

People are quick to jump on a bandwagon. When Kwan fell on her 3S at worlds some (stupid) people were all out calling it ner "nemesis" jump and how she didn't have salchow anymore!!!!!! Some people do that!

The interviews that Kimmie and coach were giving last year corroborate what cianni wrote earlier in the thread - that they always see how its going for the week leading up to the competition and then the warm up before the competition is the decider - that's why she decided to go for it at US nationals last year because it had been strong in practice and she landed one in the warm up.

Ant
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
antmanb said:
Replying to myself - the notable exception is Carolina Kostner who did that beautiful "wonder woman" axel in her exhibition at the Gran Lancia Gala in Torino.
But with CoP we certainly won't see her waste a jumping pass with a single axel will we?Ant
Sad because a single axel can be and should be very artistic. I don't blame Carolina, it's not competitive.

Joe
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Doggygirl said:
Actually, I think the ISU rules are pretty clear. The "cutoff" for a jump to be considered fully rotated is stated as being no more than 1/4 turn under rotated. That's the technical callers job to catch. The entrances, exits, air postions, difficult entrances, etc, I believe are pretty well defined under the GOE criteria, which is the judge's job to determine. While the judges and/or technical callers may be either making mistakes, or just over looking certain things (possibly flutzing) I do believe the criteria are pretty well laid out there for a subjective sport.

Just my thoughts - I'd be interested to see if others have also read the ISU rules and have different opinions.

DG - from Pittsburgh today. :)
The rule seems to be ok for the landings but for the take offs, I've been reading it doesn't matter if one cheats a half a turn before going airborne This is mostly conerned with edge jumps which are very easy to cheat before take off.

Joe
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Joesitz said:
The nonfans of Kimmie are already ganging up for the Underrotated 3A and this before she even attempts it.:laugh:

Joe
Well, I think most comments were based on the 3A we saw her landed at last US nationals. She did attempted it right?
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
Sad because a single axel can be and should be very artistic. I don't blame Carolina, it's not competitive.

Joe

God no - of course i don't blame her either - my comment was a bitter and twisted statement about CoP:laugh: !

Ant
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
The rule seems to be ok for the landings but for the take offs, I've been reading it doesn't matter if one cheats a half a turn before going airborne This is mostly conerned with edge jumps which are very easy to cheat before take off.

Joe

The trouble with take off's on edge jumps is the age old debate about how truly full revolution the jumps are ni the first place. The same petkevitch book i reference above clearly states that the salchow and loop are both half revolution jumps. From my experience of actually trying to do the jumps its impossible to do them with the balde taking off at the exact 360 mark from the landing.

For example the salchow - i only do a good one when there's a good third of the turn on the ice - its inevitable - if you actually bend your knee in order to jumpyou deepen and shorten the edge as you go. As you bend your knee and start to release the check in your arms and shoulders the blade deepens on that inhehrent curve and whne you straighten your leg out to jump the edge has come round to a good third to half turn round. Skater are taught to think of the salchow as a three jump (waltz jump in north america) that takes off from a backwards edge.

Ant
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
mzheng said:
Well, I think most comments were based on the 3A we saw her landed at last US nationals. She did attempted it right?
The landing was questionable but are you the type to hold on to that forever as she attempts the 3A in future competitions? That was my point. If someone does not like a skater, they hold onto at least one nitpick whether or not it is justified.
So many nonSarah fans continued to post that she overrotated yet the judges didn't seem to think so.

Joe
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
antmanb said:
God no - of course i don't blame her either - my comment was a bitter and twisted statement about CoP:laugh: !

Ant
True, I agree but figure skating is a Sport!! and a 3A is quite competitive for a young lady. Yet, I too, would like to see a more mature artistic side to figure skating. It just isn't there for children.

Joe
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
antmanb said:
The trouble with take off's on edge jumps is the age old debate about how truly full revolution the jumps are ni the first place. The same petkevitch book i reference above clearly states that the salchow and loop are both half revolution jumps. From my experience of actually trying to do the jumps its impossible to do them with the balde taking off at the exact 360 mark from the landing.

For example the salchow - i only do a good one when there's a good third of the turn on the ice - its inevitable - if you actually bend your knee in order to jumpyou deepen and shorten the edge as you go. As you bend your knee and start to release the check in your arms and shoulders the blade deepens on that inhehrent curve and whne you straighten your leg out to jump the edge has come round to a good third to half turn round. Skater are taught to think of the salchow as a three jump (waltz jump in north america) that takes off from a backwards edge.Ant
I used to do the same thing many yeas ago. I just think that one should be able to do a loop (r) or a salchow with no more than a quarter cheat edge. On the flip which is a salchow with a toe off, one could do it without a cheat. I think that principle could be taken for the regular salchow. The loop is always cheated even with a toe-off. Watch them.

When at the ballet, I see the young men jumping doubles from 5th position. - Not easy. But most of them, cheat by swooshing their feet at least a quarter of a turn if not a half before the jump, I guess there is a physics rule for all of this.

Joe
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Joesitz said:
So many nonSarah fans continued to post that she overrotated yet the judges didn't seem to think so.

Joe

I think you meant UNDERrotated (?) Sarah is not known to OVERrotate her jumps. If she was skating under COP those jumps would have been downgraded. Not so under the 6.0 system which was more forgiving.

Vash
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Vash01 said:
I think you meant UNDERrotated (?) Sarah is not known to OVERrotate her jumps. If she was skating under COP those jumps would have been downgraded. Not so under the 6.0 system which was more forgiving.

Vash
Yes Vash, it was a typo. So the judges in the 6.0 system didn't look for underrotated jumps? Did they look for two ft landings in Lillehammer?

Well, let's see if they are more careful in Torino both Caller and Judge.:thumbsup:

Joe
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
I used to do the same thing many yeas ago. I just think that one should be able to do a loop (r) or a salchow with no more than a quarter cheat edge. On the flip which is a salchow with a toe off, one could do it without a cheat. I think that principle could be taken for the regular salchow.

Joe

But the Flip and Salchow are two very different jumps - the flip is called a toe salchow in the UK however the tow assist doesn't make the jump easier. Because of the toe assist you have to pick straight back and behind you not off to the right where it would naturally fall if you let the jump curve in the same direction as the salchow - because of that the flip has to be much straighter or you end up making the mistake i currently make on my flip which is to pick in with the right foot too far to the inside and then drag the LBI right back to the pick (which is correct) but then i go further than that and trace the same cheat on the ice around the toe pick mark and i make on the flip. this is very bad technique and a cheate djump that should not happen.

You'll notice that most skaters do the salchow on a cirlce and the flip on a straight.

Ant
 
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