2018-19: New Season, New Rules, & Judging: Singles and Pairs

anonymoose_au · Oct 27, 2018

Some judge gave Liza a -1 for this epic 3A: https://twitter.com/i/status/1056001662299435008

*Picks up phone* Hello ISU, what even?!!

HanDomi · Oct 27, 2018

how 4+ GOE for this 4F ?
https://youtu.be/HGLCe5EfgKc?t=54

Judging of mens event at skate america looked promising, but here we go again

eppen · Oct 28, 2018

Short Program

Free Skate

Skater

Comp

PCS

Errors

GOE

Score range

Skater

Comp

PCS

Errors

GOE

Score Range

1

Shoma Uno

LT

46.50

none

14.05

9.00-9.50

1

Mikhail Kolyada

ONT

[FONT=&quot]91.50[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]fall[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

13.54

8.50–9.50

2

Yuzuru Hanyu

ACI

45.40

missing element

11.24

8.00–9.50

2

Mikhail Kolyada

FT

[FONT=&quot]90.28[/FONT]

2 pops

[FONT=&quot]15.14[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]8.50–9.50[/FONT]

3

Nathan Chen

SA

44.64

<, !

5.98

8.00–9.75

3

Nathan Chen

SA

[FONT=&quot]90.24[/FONT]

!

[FONT=&quot]15.04[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]8.50–9.75[/FONT]

4

Mikhail Kolyada

ONT

44.30

none

10.52

8.00–9.25

4

Shoma Uno

JO

89.44

[FONT=&quot]fall, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]<x2[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]12.49[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]8.50–9.50[/FONT]

5

Jason Brown

ACI

44.10

<

9.01

8.50–9.50

5

Shoma Uno

LT

[FONT=&quot]89.30[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]fall, <, REP[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

-0.18

8.25–9.50

6

Shoma Uno

SC

43.24

fall

1.03

8.00–9.25

6

Shoma Uno

SC

[FONT=&quot]88.64[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] 2 f alls, < [/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

13.83

[FONT=&quot]8.50–9.25[/FONT]

7

Jason Brown

SC

42.96

fall, <x2

3.70

7.75–9.00

7

Yuzuru Hanyu

ACI

87.90

fall, [FONT=&quot]3 pops, 2xV[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]9.77[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]7.75–9.25[/FONT]

8

Mikhail Kolyada

FT

42.75

fall

2.55

7.25–9.25

8

Javier Fernández

JO

87.80

3 pops

[FONT=&quot]7.67[/FONT]

8.00–9.25

9

Keegan Messing

SC

42.24

none

12.02

7.75–9.00

9

Keegan Messing

SC

[FONT=&quot]87.22[/FONT]

fall, [FONT=&quot]<, REP[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]14.86[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]8.00–9.50[/FONT]

10

Keegan Messing

NT

41.60

none

8.34

7.75–9.00

10

Jason Brown

SC

84.36

pop, <

[FONT=&quot]12.13[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]7.75–9.00[/FONT]

Here are the top PCS scores for men this season so far. I included JO after some thinking - the panels there were ISU level judges and it is endorsed by the Japanede federation. Left out the retired Nobunari Oda from JO (FS 84.50) and included Fernández who might not be retired (but who knows).

For the most part, all seems ok and according to the rules. I included the errors marked in the protocols and the total GOE as a check for the general quality of the technical side of the program. In that respect one could wonder a little bit of some of the high PCS scores. How bad does Shoma have to skate to get a low PCS score? (He has by far the lowest total GOEs in both programs.)

These mostly match what they got last season, at least the high scores. (Well, apart from Hanyu and Fernández who have not gotten PCS that low in FS very often in the previous seasons.)

E

Danny T · Nov 11, 2018

Uhhh, there's nothing wrong with Hanyu's salchow take-off. Full stop. Don't know what some of you are on.

Elucidus · Nov 17, 2018

New Rostelecom Cup FAKE UR calls:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1819/gprus2018/gprus2018_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

https://youtu.be/EIynTD_7168?t=342
3Lz+3T< UR call was fake. It seems they just don't want Sofia to be in GPF instead of Kaori.

https://youtu.be/q5bzQp185zU?t=182
Alina's 3F<+2T+2Lo UR call was fake as well.
Also her 3Lz<+3Lo combo was 90 degree UR and they can be less picky about that but they chose not to.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Nov 17, 2018

Elucidus said:
New Rostelecom Cup FAKE UR calls:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1819/gprus2018/gprus2018_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

https://youtu.be/EIynTD_7168?t=342
3Lz+3T< UR call was fake. It seems they just don't want Sofia to be in GPF instead of Kaori.

https://youtu.be/q5bzQp185zU?t=182
Alina's 3F<+2T+2Lo UR call was fake as well.
Also her 3Lz<+3Lo combo was 90 degree UR and they can be less picky about that but they choose not to.

I think that Alina would have been given the benefit of the doubt on home ice. The PCS was way too high though, considering the errors, and her generally being tight throughout that performance.

Also some scoring oddities from Rostelecom:
Stepanova/Bukin getting a PCS personal best for an obviously flawed RD with the Tango Romantica section totally messed up (people know this is one of my fave teams, but that scoring was ridiculous COR scoring 101); Hanyu getting many 9.5+ for SS, TR, CO & 9.0+ for PE/IN in spite of having multiple serious errors and PCS rules prescribing against that kind of scoring (Kolyada also got some of these too, in spite of several major errors); Tarasova/Morosov's GOE on their 3L throw and 3T in their SP, and a -2 and -3 on their 3S<< in their FS; same judges gave Efimova/Korovin -3s for their 3S<< (guess those judges like bailed triples?!).

Globetrotter · Nov 18, 2018

Elucidus said:
New Rostelecom Cup FAKE UR calls:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1819/gprus2018/gprus2018_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

https://youtu.be/EIynTD_7168?t=342
3Lz+3T< UR call was fake. It seems they just don't want Sofia to be in GPF instead of Kaori.

https://youtu.be/q5bzQp185zU?t=182
Alina's 3F<+2T+2Lo UR call was fake as well.
Also her 3Lz<+3Lo combo was 90 degree UR and they can be less picky about that but they chose not to.

I can’t even make the effort to comment on these calls. IMO, Rostelecom Cup GP comp has been the most disappointing of the GP series so far. Nobody skated clean, no real outstanding performance and the ladies competition was frankly quite mediocre. Polina Tsurskaya is especially worrying.

chopinskate · Nov 18, 2018

Globetrotter said:
I can’t even make the effort to comment on these calls. IMO, Rostelecom Cup GP comp has been the most disappointing of the GP series so far. Nobody skated clean, no real outstanding performance and the ladies competition was frankly quite mediocre. Polina Tsurskaya is especially worrying.

Agreed, especially about Tsurskaya.

Zagitova is a great talent. However, something is slowly slipping away in terms of her jumping, and her refinement and her skating skills need work. I think her performance with her face has matured and has become slightly deeper, but her body movements, perhaps due to the growth spurt, have become sloppier. Her talent could be to create stunning stationary/held out pictures, like with the opening of her LP, just a pity that her programs require her to be in constant, unnecessary, fidgety motion.

Baron Vladimir · Nov 18, 2018

Now about the Euler. I saw in some protocols 1Eu in jump combination was downgraded (1Eu<<) and combination is ratified. But how is that possible? How is possible to call that a jump combination at all when there was basically no Euler between jumps?

chopinskate · Nov 18, 2018

^lol.

Sam-Skwantch · Nov 18, 2018

Baron Vladimir said:
Now about the Euler. I saw in some protocols 1Eu in jump combination was downgraded (1Eu<<) and combination is ratified. But how is that possible? How is possible to call that a jump combination at all when there was basically no Euler between jumps?

I have a good friend who always got called for that. Back when they were were still called 1lo. It would always look like this.

3t-1lo<<-2s

:laugh:

gkelly · Nov 18, 2018

That's pretty common, actually.

At juvenile you might see double, downgraded 1T, double if they prerotate the toe loop. Still counts as a three jump combo, just a flawed one.

rinkside_user · Nov 19, 2018

I'm sure it has been discussed to death but the thread seems impossible to browse effectively.

So please excuse me but some questions for members who are more knowledgable than me:

1. In the former system a 4T-3T combination where the 4T was textbook perfect and the 3T resulted in a fall ended up with a mandatory negative GOE overall (around -2.75). Now it seems people can get away with a positive GOE as a whole if the error was made on only one part of the combination (e.g. Hanyu got a positive GOE on his combination with a turnout on the second half in Helsinki). Is that really a thing with the new bulletpoints for quality criteria or just judges not sticking to the new rules?
2. Can an executed jump/element result in a negative impact overall (e.g. BV 2.00 + fall -3 GOE = -1.00) or GOE is always adjusted to the element itself (=elements cannot earn more GOE than BV itself) so a 1Lz with a fall can only earn 0.00 in a worst case scenario?
3. It seems jumps can be repeated now in the FS (e.g. Zagitova's 2 solo 2As in her FS), right?
4. Why is prerotation still not addressed?

Thank you in advance. (Btw a shorter overview on the implemented most important changes would be nice.

)

chopinskate · Nov 19, 2018

dunnoww said:
1. In the former system a 4T-3T combination where the 4T was textbook perfect and the 3T resulted in a fall ended up with a mandatory negative GOE overall (around -2.75). Now it seems people can get away with a positive GOE as a whole if the error was made on only one part of the combination (e.g. Hanyu got a positive GOE on his combination with a turnout on the second half in Helsinki). Is that really a thing with the new bulletpoints for quality criteria or just judges not sticking to the new rules?
2. Can an executed jump/element result in a negative impact overall (e.g. BV 2.00 + fall -3 GOE = -1.00) or GOE is always adjusted to the element itself (=elements cannot earn more GOE than BV itself) so a 1Lz with a fall can only earn 0.00 in a worst case scenario?
3. It seems jumps can be repeated now in the FS (e.g. Zagitova's 2 solo 2As in her FS), right?
4. Why is prerotation still not addressed?

1. The reasoning, apparently, is "the positive GOE is being counterbalanced by the negative GOE", which I agree with in general, but haven't agreed with the way it's being used this season or how the judges seemingly think it should be used. So Hanyu's 4T+3T with the turn out was thought to have enough positive qualities to net it positive GOE.
2. GOE is always adjusted to the BV, but with a fall, for instance, you can have 1A(fall) = 1.1 - 0.5*1.1 = 0.55 and then with the fall deduction, 0.55 - 1 = -0.45
3. Repeating a solo 2A was always allowed, AFAIK.
4. The ISU, too, likes to read the tri-weekly discussions about it on GS.

Neenah16 · Nov 19, 2018

dunnoww said:
I'm sure it has been discussed to death but the thread seems impossible to effectively browse. So please excuse me but a question for members who are more knowledgable than me:

1. In the former system a 4T-3T combination where the 4T was textbook perfect and the 3T resulted in a fall ended up with a mandatory negative GOE overall (around -2.75). Now it seems people can get away with a positive GOE as a whole if the error was made on only one part of the combination (e.g. Hanyu got a positive GOE on his combination with a turnout on the second half in Helsinki). Is that really a thing with the new bulletpoints for quality criteria or just judges not sticking to the new rules?
2. Can an executed jump/element result in a negative impact overall (e.g. BV 2.00 + fall -3 GOE = -1.00) or GOE is always adjusted to the element itself (=elements cannot earn more GOE than BV itself) so a 1Lz with a fall can only earn 0.00 in a worst case scenario?
3. It seems jumps can be repeated now in the FS (e.g. Zagitova's 2 solo 2As in her FS), right?
4. Why is prerotation still not addressed?

Thank you in advance. (Btw a shorter overview on the implemented most important changes would be nice. )

1. The GOE in the old and new rules is the result of counting positive GOE bullets and then deducting for errors. The final GOE will be negative if the deductions are more than positives. The difference is that the new rules have a bigger scale (11 instead of 7), so when deducting the negative it is possible to end up with a positive value. Hanyu's combo is an example of that, the 4T was perfect and the 3T has a small turn out that he recovered from quickly, which falls under the definition of weak landing and a deduction of -1 to -3. Looking at the overall quality of the combo, the judge could have given the combo +3 or +2 GOE and then deducted for the error, thus ending with positive GOE (the recovery was quick so he probably did not get -3 for it). A fall is a -5 deduction and a jumping pass with a fall is, by the rules, capped at +2 GOE, so the highest a jumping pass with a fall can get is -3. Though realistically a jump that ends with a fall probably have other issues that would add to the deduction so we are more likely to see -5 or -4 for falls.

2. The GOE is a percentage of the BV so it cannot be negative. Check the SOV here: https://www.isu.org/communications/17142-isu-communication-2168/file

3. It was always possible to have two solo double jumps, I don't think that's knew

4. Ask the ISU

gkelly · Nov 19, 2018

It has long been the case that positive qualities of the element are supposed to be considered first and reductions for errors subtracted afterward.

When the positive bullet points were first codified, there were some errors that were supposed to have mandatory negative GOE.

A few years after that the guidelines were revised so that only elements in the short program that didn't meet the requirements but weren't asterisked to nothing required -3 final GOE.

For everything else, add first and then subtract. For serious errors that required the maximum reduction, that meant the final GOE could not end positive, but +3 then -3 could result in 0.

This year, along with the change to +5 and -5 GOE range, there is also a new guideline "In case of significant error (e.g. fall, landing on two feet, stepping out of landing, wrong edge (e), downgraded (<<), serious problems on the descent of the lift, serious problems on the catch of the Twist) the starting GOE for the evaluation cannot be higher than +2."

So for an error that requires -5 GOE reduction, starting at +2 and subtracting -5 would end up with -3 as the defacto maximum allowable GOE.

For a -3 or -4 error such as a step out, +2 -3 could end up as high as -1.

Turning out of a landing on one foot (e.g., double three) would not fall under that serious error guideline. So it would be within the rules to start with more than +2 and then subtract -2 to end up still positive.

chopinskate · Nov 19, 2018

gkelly said:
It has long been the case that positive qualities of the element are supposed to be considered first and reductions for errors subtracted afterward.

It has been, but it has never exactly been applied properly (note a slew of barely rotated jumps getting +3s for whatever reason, never exactly getting deducted for "lacking rotation"). This season, though, seems worse, with the "required bullets" stuff. Not exactly sure how a fall can still get -2 or -3 when it doesn't exactly satisfy the "good through take-off to landing" bullet (or however it was phrased).

CanadianSkaterGuy · Nov 19, 2018

Baron Vladimir said:
Now about the Euler. I saw in some protocols 1Eu in jump combination was downgraded (1Eu<<) and combination is ratified. But how is that possible? How is possible to call that a jump combination at all when there was basically no Euler between jumps?

Sometimes a skater transfers over on their Euler facing forward and then does a 3 turn into their 3S/3F. Often a less than ideal landing on the first jump causes the skater to not have the speed/rhythm to properly rotate their Euler, but if they have enough momentum it can still be enough for a split-second 3-turn and then the 3rd jump. This will appear in the protocol though as a < or << depending on how around they get. IMO, it should still be considered a combination jump but rotation deductions should still apply.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZxDCfgVfTc#t=3m50s - This is a clean example, when the Euler is very obviously jumped because of good speed coming out of the axel. Note that if you slow it down, you can see the blade is sufficiently rotated going into the 3S.

These ones are more dicey, especially under the new rules about 1/4 rotation being insufficient:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhqkxG-HAzs#t=7m15 - note the lean forward on the 3A landing, so the Euler's "hop" is compromised and the left blade when it lands is clearly not rotated enough and a 3-turn is executed into the 3S (although I think he got away with it, tech-panel wise, when it should have been <)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDE_41SIHcw#t=3m8s - this one he's outside the circle on the landing of the quad, and his upper body over rotating, so he has to step forward and then go into the 3S to save it. But this one is very obvious that the Euler (which looks more like a stepout followed by a 3-turn) is <<.

I've seen a couple skaters have what's actually a stepout on their first jump and disguise it with a 3 jump Euler combination attempt but in those scenarios the stepout often gets called as an < or << Euler. I'd still say it's a legit combination that should be ratified as such, but the Eu doesn't get any points for the downgrade which is how it should be - as it is, a Euler is easier to execute than a loop but gets the same BV.

Neenah16 · Nov 19, 2018

chopinskate said:
It has been, but it has never exactly been applied properly (note a slew of barely rotated jumps getting +3s for whatever reason, never exactly getting deducted for "lacking rotation"). This season, though, seems worse, with the "required bullets" stuff. Not exactly sure how a fall can still get -2 or -3 when it doesn't exactly satisfy the "good through take-off to landing" bullet (or however it was phrased).

I haven't seen any fall get -2 GOE, mind giving an example please

For the positive GOE bullets, for a jumping pass that ends with a fall

1) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence) - Possible
2) good take-off and landing - Not possible
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in Jump combination) - Not possible
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry - Possible
5) very good body position from take-off to landing - Not possible
6) element matches the music - Possible

So, theoretically, a fall (on a jump) can check 3 positive bullet points without having to satisfy the required points. However, the rules says that a fall caps the positive GOE at +2. With the -5 deduction that would be -3 for a wonderful jump that for no reason ended in a fall. If there were other issues with the jump that require extra deduction (which is usually what happens anyway), then we will see -4 and -5 as the final GOE

rinkside_user · Nov 19, 2018

chopinskate said:
[...]

Neenah16 said:
[...]

gkelly said:
[...]

Thank you for the responses!

2018-19: New Season, New Rules, & Judging: Singles and Pairs

anonymoose_au

Insert weird opinion here

HanDomi

eppen

Danny T

Elucidus

Match Penalty

CanadianSkaterGuy

Globetrotter

chopinskate

Baron Vladimir

chopinskate

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

gkelly

rinkside_user

chopinskate

Neenah16

gkelly

chopinskate

CanadianSkaterGuy

Neenah16

rinkside_user

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