Quads. Why or why not?

Its obvious that Sasha will keep her quads and she will try to put their difficulty on the next level. She is a fierce and fearless girl. But regarding another girls the trainers may decide the the quads are not the one and only method how to succeed in the next years. JGPF won very well performed clean program with no quads, in the russian nationals Alena could be serious threat for a win without that silly fall on her step seauence (quad girls won but there was not Liza, and Alina and Zhenya both completely bombed. it would be interesting to see the results with their clean programs and with international judges)

While quads are working for someone like Sasha and it suites her well, it doesnt mean that this is and should be the only possibility how to win. And I hope it will stay so for at least few years.

dobrevaria said:

But of course, I know we are supposed to be in awe in front of these girls, and say to everyone out there that they are the future of figure’s skating, and blah blah blah. Sorry, but with their technique, I don’t see that happening, unfortunately. I don’t see them keeping their quads, even if I want them to. If they change their technique overtime, then, why not? Maybe. But with the current way of things ? No way.

Click to expand...

Ok, then in that case what quad technique is right in your opinion and why it would help them keep their quads during/after puberty while their current technique supposedly is not able to? Enlighten us please

nips said:

Its obvious that Sasha will keep her quads and she will try to put their difficulty on the next level. She is a fierce and fearless girl. But regarding another girls the trainers may decide the the quads are not the one and only method how to succeed in the next years. JGPF won very well performed clean program with no quads, in the russian nationals Alena could be serious threat for a win without that silly fall on her step seauence (quad girls won but there was not Liza, and Alina and Zhenya both completely bombed. it would be interesting to see the results with their clean programs and with international judges)

While quads are working for someone like Sasha and it suites her well, it doesnt mean that this is and should be the only possibility how to win. And I hope it will stay so for at least few years.

Click to expand...

I agree if you skate clean, you can win even without quad like Alena in GPF.

I’m a huge fan of Patrick Chan and at the end of his career, he was struggling with quads trying to cope with the number of quads to stay competitive but he couldn’t. I’m happy that ISU limits the quad.

Elucidus said:

Ok, then in that case what quad technique is right in your opinion and why it would help them keep their quads during/after puberty while their current technique supposedly is not able to? Enlighten us please

Click to expand...

You know, you don't have to take this tone with me. I never pretended to know everything about "quad technique", I was just making observations.
And even if they changed their technique, maybe they will not keep their quads anyway. Or maybe they will. I don't know, since I don't have a crystal ball. That's why I said "almost sure at 100%", and not "sure at 100%".
But since you asked, I think the best thing for them to keep their quads in the future is to put more emphasis on their lower bodies and their jumping power, instead of rotation speed. Morever, maybe perfecting their triples (for example, trying to not prerotate) can help them in the future as well. But it's not my place to give advices, I don't have the arrogance to do so. At the end of the day, I'm not a coach, I'm not a "know-it-all" either, and it depends first and foremost on them and the choices of their coaching team.

I just think that with their actual technique, doing quads post puberty or in their 20s is something...quite optimistic.
I hope I'm wrong, since I actually enjoy their skating very much, especially Anna.

dobrevaria said:

...I don’t understand why people are still in awe in front of a lady doing triple axels, more than 20 years after Midori Ito....

Click to expand...

I was in awe of Midori Ito 20 years ago and a I am in awe of these girls now.

I imagine that people had this conversation about doubles back in the day.

I think someone in another post said it best: if you want artistry to be rewarded, then change the rules so that artistry IS rewarded. Let people do quads if they want, but punish them severely if the jumps aren't flawless. Then let people decide if it's still worth the risk.

el henry said:

Sport, sport, sport, sport....

For me personally Jump da jump jump jump programs bore me to tears and I don’t watch them. :yawn: I don’t consider it progress in the sport of figure skating. So, that’s not a justification for training complicated and dangerous jumps at a young age.

Click to expand...

I believe, however, that we lost this battle years (if not decades) ago, and now we have no option than to grin and bear it. A glance at the scale of values tells the whole story. If you upgrade your triple toe (BV 4.20) to a quad toe (9.50) you just gained 5.3 points.

Or instead you can raise your level 3 flying change foot change position combination spin (3.00) to a level 4 (F)CCoSp (3.50).

Or you could upgrade your musical interpretation from really good to really, really good. This will probably get you somewhere between diddly and jack. :yes:

Oh well. It's all good.

No one really knows what the long-term effect will be on these young female skaters who are doing quads. Growth will require an adjustment but some skaters do adjust and have long careers. I think injury is the greater risk. Quads have caused injuries or shortened careers of male skaters like Yagudin (career-ending). Even now, we are seeing Hanyu injured, just like he was last season. It hasn't stopped him yet but it may eventually. How much worse will it be for the ladies, who are not as strong as the men? I don't know the answer to that question (nor does anyone) but am not sure it is right to experiment with with these girls in order to find out.

Mathman said:

I believe, however, that we lost this battle years (if not decades) ago, and now we have no option than to grin and bear it. A glance at the scale of values tells the whole story. If you upgrade your triple toe (BV 4.20) to a quad toe (9.50) you just gained 5.3 points.

Or instead you can raise your level 3 flying change foot change position combination spin (3.00) to a level 4 (F)CCoSp (3.50).

Or you could upgrade your musical interpretation from really good to really, really good. This will probably get you somewhere between diddly and jack. :yes:

Oh well. It's all good.

Click to expand...

Oh I know I lost the scoring battle And I can’t stop the jump train. But ain’t no one can force me to call it “progress”.

I’m not convinced that’s not the reason (could I possibly write more negatives in one phrase?) in the US that we have been hemorrhaging figure skating fans too. No one I know is going, hot dang, I need to see me some 14 year old girls doing four revolutions in a jump, wow, let me see more! Unless they’re already on this Board

These little girls have only got a couple of years more of less before they hit their harsh but (it seems) inescapable use by date anyway and are replaced... personally, I wouldn't call that long worth the risk of real damage but they and their parents do, it seems (just as the men - who have longer, true, but biology is what it is - do).

Others risk more for rather less...

If you are not okay with women doing quads, are you okay with men doing quads? (I would warrant to guess your answer is yes.) Because this same question was definitely debated with men many years ago, now it's not even a question... And secondly, why is there a double standard anyways?

TallyT said:

These little girls have only got a couple of years more of less before they hit their harsh but (it seems) inescapable use by date anyway and are replaced... personally, I wouldn't call that long worth the risk of real damage but they and their parents do, it seems (just as the men - who have longer, true, but biology is what it is - do).

Others risk more for rather less...

Click to expand...

i don't think this is something you can say considering who your avatar is (lol no hate i love him), he's been chronically injured since as long as i can remember. But i don't see anyone saying his time is up.

Until skating boots technology finds a way to minimize the pressure exerted on these young skater's bodies while doing quads, I think we should limit quads. Figure Skating is an olympic sport, but what other sport makes a skater land with such force on a thin section of a blade? Most sports that require jumping land on their feet flat distributing the force to reduce injuries.

I’d like to hope the junior girls can bring their quads in when they become seniors, would really shake up the game ��

bobbob said:

If you are not okay with women doing quads, are you okay with men doing quads? (I would warrant to guess your answer is yes.) Because this same question was definitely debated with men many years ago, now it's not even a question... And secondly, why is there a double standard anyways?

Click to expand...

A lot of double standards here as always. Nobody questioned Gogolev's health for doing so many quads. Nobody questioned Kihira doing 3A, which is half a revolution less (or even lesser than that if you're counting the prerotation) from those girls who are doing quads, plus she is doing 3 of them now :confused2:

sx98423 said:

i don't think this is something you can say considering who your avatar is (lol no hate i love him), he's been chronically injured since as long as i can remember. But i don't see anyone saying his time is up.

Click to expand...

It's not just the ankles or the quads or the difficulty; looking at his career the skating gods have cooked up an array of health drawbacks and problems and injuries that would daunt Superman :sad21:. That someone with nowhere near his fair share of the rude robust health world champions damn well need has conquered as he has is pretty astounding.

(And actually, people have being saying his time is up, he's getting older, he won't keep up with the youngsters/quad team since, umm, 2016 at the latest and probably before. He appears to find it mildly annoying )

What I meant was, the little girls get quickly overtaken because of the conveyor belt nature of their success/fame. Even if they don't get injured, barring a Yuzu-style phenom or someone who's a pure physical anomaly they won't stay on top for long. I personally wouldn't take that short time if it meant my hips and knees might have gone earlier, but I'm never going to get a chance at fame, so can't really say for them.

Where is all this “no one questioned anyone else doing quads” whataboutism coming from, in the face of at least one person who has been raising questions about young folks and quads for four years?

No one reads my posts, I’m crushed:sad21::sad21::sad21:

For all the comments I see about how light and slender Trusova and Scheberkova are and how this facilitates their jumps, I see no mention of how problematic that lightness and slenderness might be in and of itself. Their bodies might have issues falling apart far before they get hip, knee, and ankle injuries, and far before they "hit" puberty.
I can't stand to watch either of them—quads or no quads—because I fear for their lightness and slenderness.

Frankly, I don't like the aesthetic, either. Curves have a way of making lines more interesting, IMO.

^^^
I see people talk only about Trusova and Shcherbakova quads here, so... And i was the one criticizing men doing quads, because to me a most of their competitions were a mess

dobrevaria said:

You know, you don't have to take this tone with me. I never pretended to know everything about "quad technique", I was just making observations.
And even if they changed their technique, maybe they will not keep their quads anyway. Or maybe they will. I don't know, since I don't have a crystal ball. That's why I said "almost sure at 100%", and not "sure at 100%".

Click to expand...

There’s an even simpler counterpoint you could raise: the success rate of maintaining triples. I know some people don’t believe TSL, and I understand why, but beyond the snark, they do have an immense amount of insider knowledge and various coaches clearly use them to leak information — and in their recap of Russian nationals, they stated that Medvedeva’s jumps were gone after the Olympics. Moreover, the 2017-2018 season wasn’t exactly stellar for Med; she had two clean skates at the Olympics, but that was the only time she managed to, and it was clear the Axel was becoming increasingly problematic, the toe jumps were much more muscled, etc. Zagitova is having issues with rotation, consistency, etc., and the jumps just look much less effortless compared to her Olympic performance, with some of the same signs of trouble that we’ve seen before.

I have no idea whether or not Shcherbakova and Trusova will retain their quads post-puberty. But I’m not optimistic.

bobbob said:

If you are not okay with women doing quads, are you okay with men doing quads? (I would warrant to guess your answer is yes.) Because this same question was definitely debated with men many years ago, now it's not even a question... And secondly, why is there a double standard anyways?

Click to expand...

Junior or senior men? Interestingly, the junior men who include quads also include the 3A. And the 3A isn’t successful based solely on rotational efficiency — it’s finding the balance between rotation speed and the size of the jump, and the latter is determined based on the body position at takeoff (how far the free leg and arms are extended before being pulled in for rotation). Some skaters have smaller 3As than 2As, actually, as they rotate the 3A faster than the 2A and in order to snap into rotation more quickly for the 3A, they reduce the size of the jump — if the 3A is smaller, the path for the arms and free leg take is shorter.

Also, the junior men (and senior men, largely?) aren’t throwing out 4Lzs as their first quad as a general rule. The men tend to begin with the 4T or 4S. There was an explosion of 4Lzs in senior men last season, including some pretty bad 4Lzs, but I can’t think of a single man currently jumping quads who doesn’t also have a 3A and one of either the 4T or 4S. So I do find it a bit curious that the quad of choice for junior women is the 4Lz, as it seems... odd. Especially since women tend to have more issue with the Lutz edge. Maybe Shcherbakova and Trusova are exceptions to the rule and the general development of quads that we see, or maybe there’s something with the technique that makes the 4Lz possible now but not especially stable over the long term.

If you’re asking about men jumping quads in terms of the heath risk: I agree with everything Mathman said. I would like to see an evidence-based medicine type approach toward how to best balance the physical demands of figure skating and how to avoid unhealthy amount of risk. Right now, it seems coaches and skaters are able to make educated guesses about what the risks are but there isn’t, to the best of my knowledge, any thorough research, let alone any advice from ISU on balancing risk and reward. But expecting the ISU to be helpful is insanity. The “only one quad can be repeated” rule encourages skaters to pick up additional quads, up to a point, once you take the new GOE range into account... it’s all a mess.