Solomon's Decision: jumping beans -vs- silver foxes

Lately we heard a lot about young girls jumping quads and crazy triple-triple combos and how all this madness is a whole different sport. Ok. Let's make it a different sport. Another sport category in figure skating.

I want to propose 2 age categories in female singles:

- Ladies 15-20 years old
- Women 20+


Both categories can compete at Olympics and Worlds. Probably even Grand Prix as well. (Juniors still the same: 12-14, no Olympics or Words.) More competitions, more programs, more choreography, more skaters = the better. More events with top-level skaters = more money. Therefore bigger viewership, more sponsors who can target different age groups (because lets face it young viewers wants to see ladies of approximately their own age competing like Yulia, Zhenya, Alina, Alysa, 3A squad, but us - 30+ folks - want to see someone like Asley-Wagners and Carolina-Kostners and similar current generation of 20+ girls). More different skaters, more flavor = better for sport and art. I'm heartbroken to loose silver foxes skaters because they can't do crazy difficult jumps due to their weight or other silly things like gravity. But it is a fair and natural process for sport. Even more than that I am also heartbroken to forbid younger ladies to jump quads and to stop them from challenging boundaries of difficulty. Sport should evolve. And figure skating is still a sport, and only after that it is an "artsy sport". I still want sport principle to apply: stronger, higher, faster. But for viewership numbers and aesthetic purposes figure skating as sport still should remain as artsy as possible. We need solution to this. So FS wont end up like WAG. I propose 2 age categories in female singles and probably slightly different criteria of judging for each group. 2 different set of medals. Jumping beans will receive their own gold-silver-bronze. Women 20+ will get their own set of medals. This will help our sport to keep both: evolution of difficulty and elegant artistry.


Same set of medals, same prestige, same money, same judging with current IJS / code of points. Just age is different. Juniors still can be in 12-14 yo, and no Olympics for them. Ladies 15-20 and Woman 20+ can have Worlds, Olympics and GP. But probably no Euros and 4C for category "woman 20+". This would be logical too - let the young ones compete for Euros and 4C. The "older girls" can compete less than 15-20 year-olds, but skate more shows instead, because it is harder for them to peak so often during the season. Fair.

At Olympics in Team event ladies of 15-20 yo can present their Long Programs and women 20+ can skate their Short.

This way we will have it both ways: we still will see our amazing 'jumping beans' with their daring jaw-dropping marvelous difficulty, and we will enjoy our beloved refined elegant 'silver foxes' with their nifty deep edges and exquisite SS. Different flavors, and this will attract different age groups and different tastes to figure skating even more. There would be less arguing too. And older skaters wont loose motivation and chances to win their Olympics and Worlds medals. And young guns won't be kicking silver foxes out the sport "so violently" with their difficulty. We will keep them all in sport. Win win.

This can be a really working Solomon's Decision. Just think about it. Everyone will be happy. Older skaters could still could be competitive and on demand past their 20. Besides, I would even slightly change the rules for category "Woman 20+" in favor of "component skaters". Let the SS, TR, PE, CH and IM be more valuable than TES and difficulty of jumps. But of course all jumps should still be preferably landed, because otherwise massive splatfest is such a buzz kill for public. Let allow the skaters past 20 years old do less difficult jumps, but they still have to land them. For "women 20+" category the components like artistry, consistency, musicality, smooth gliding and deep edges should be the path to victory. But I repeat lading jumps and consistency still should be an important requirement and rules should encourage older skaters to pick simpler jumps, but land them consistently.

Really, guys, 2 age categories would solve a lot of problems in current ladies field. And we won't arguing and fighting that much. And more events, more ladies means more money for ISU too. FS still will remain artistic and we won't sacrifice pushing the sport and it's natural difficulty evolution. Win win. Every Olympic quad age of categories can be internationally discussed and re-evaluated to keep FS sport both competitive and artsy. But just in different categories. Because let's face it: Trusova, Shcherbakova and Kostornaya are doing beautiful, but different sport already. And soon we will have many young Japanese girls joining them, some American and Korean probably too. And I dont want to deprive them of their chance to win Olympic medals with their amazing athletic abilities of young bodies. But I also don't want Zhenya, Alina, Liza, Satoko, Ashley, Gracie, Karo and many other silver foxes to leave in vain, because they cant compete against jumps technicians (because after all sport is sport, and at the end sport is cruel and unfair to all aging athletes, sooner or later).

Imagine Yulia Lipnitskaya and Ashley Wagner to be back competing NOW? Or Liza Tukti, Mao Asada, Yuna Kim and Adelina Sotnikova wont be "terrorized" by technical difficulty of youngsters and imagine they are back to FS and are able to compete RIGHT NOW and have a shot for medals at upcoming Worlds and Olympics? Imagine them competing together in upcoming Worlds in Tokyo in spring? This will sell like hot cakes! Big TV ratings. Nostalgia and euphoria among fans. We just won't shut up! And youngsters can still be allowed to raise the bar of difficulty, but in their own category, competing against equals. They will receive their own gold-silver-bronze. Equally prestigious and equal money+exposure+fame. Let the young guns be tricksters, and let the "veteran skaters" give us pleasure with their crafted skating. We should have them both at Olympics. This way the prestige, money and awards will be equal for both young and older girls. Fair. 2 different categories = almost like 2 different sports = 2 different sets of medals.

Wha 'bout dat? Let's just stop arguing and gossiping about young girls/bodies/weight versus seasoned and refined silver foxes. It will be better for sport. really.

Nota Bene: Frankly, I think this will work for gymnastics as well. WAG will come back to it's original artistry and still will allow daring youngsters to invent new elements and push difficulty of the sport. Win win for WAG too. Imagine Nabs, Komova, Afan and Aliya to be back in one team competing for next Worlds or Olympics? This will make crazy TV ratings! Our older American golden generation girls be back too.. Our favorite Chinese gymnasts be back. OMG. Youngsters can perform crazy amounts of twists and flips, older gymnasts can kill us with beauty of their lines, musicality and extensions.

This is an interesting idea, but it operates under the (imo false) assumption that older skaters are inherently more artistic and younger skaters are inherently better jumpers. There are ladies ages 15-20 who are extremely artistic, but who do not have the best jumps (Gubanova, Honda, Miyahara, who by your definition just became a “silver fox” this year), and ladies over 20 who have excellent jumps but weaker skating skills (Tuk). 15 year-old Alena Kostornaya is a more elegant skater and a better jumper than 27 year-old Ashley Wagner.

Another out-of-the-box solution could be to just add an "artistic skating" discipline which allows the skater to construct a program out of required choreo/step sequences and spins, as well as some "wow" elements of their choice (jumps/spread eagles/Ina Bauers/spiral sequences/etc.). TES would come from the GOE on those elements, with no base value whatsoever. The second mark can be your standard PCS.

Or Liza Tukti, Mao Asada, Yuna Kim and Adelina Sotnikova wont be "terrorized" by technical difficulty of youngsters and imagine they are back to FS and are able to compete RIGHT NOW and have a shot for medals at upcoming Worlds and Olympics?

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I don't think age alone dictates whether or not you can keep up with the jumping beans, or whether or not you are a jumping bean yourself Tuk is not the greatest skater, but she has a 3A, which few women of any age are capable of jumping. Mao Asada still jumps it, too. I assume in this scenario all woman will jump a 3A and quads will be necessary to win the Olympics? I’m not convinced we’re there yet, sorry. Sasha and Anna are the only ones who are consistently doing these quads in competitions—who’s to say they aren’t just unusually gifted jumpers? (Trusova in particular strikes me as a special Midori Ito type). Are two skaters enough to justify such a radical overhaul of the system?

Because let's face it: Trusova, Shcherbakova and Kostornaya are doing beautiful, but different sport already. And soon we will have many young Japanese girls joining them, some American and Korean probably too. And I dont want to deprive them of their chance to win Olympic medals with their amazing athletic abilities of young bodies.

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Even if quads do become necessary to win, I am not convinced that only “young bodies” will be able to jump them. There are crucial physiological differences, of course, but I honestly think that if an adult male body can master a quad, then an adult female body can do the same—maybe only a small number, but it will happen sooner or later. Whether that’s something we want to encourage (for any sex) is a different matter. But I don’t believe younger (smaller) bodies are the only ones capable of being technically competitive, and I think we get into dangerous territory about delaying puberty/developing EDs when we operate under that assumption.

Tl;dr Beyond age itself, I don’t buy that there is this clear dichotomy between “woman’s skating” and “girl’s skating," either technically or artistically, so I don’t see a reason to separate based on age group.

ETA I’m also confused by 18 year-old Medvedeva and 16 year-old Zagitova being in the “silver foxes” category, even though you specified 15-20 as the younger age group Do you mean pre-pubescent vs pubescent?

rachno2 said:

I’m also confused by 18 year-old Medvedeva and 16 year-old Zagitova being in the “silver foxes” category, even though you specified 15-20 as one age group

Do you mean pre-pubescent vs pubescent?

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Zhenya is 19. This new age-categories thing will work out for her just great. She is still has 1 year till 20. So she can work with Brian Orser for another on her PCS and adjust to new conditions, and correct jump technique (if she feels that needed) to be stable. Next year is her year to be in Women 20+ category. Less difficulty, more artistry. Less TES, more PCS.

Alina is soon-to-be silver fox. 3 more years.

I think this is an intriguing idea.
I don’t know if we could get enough people to think outside the box (or the rink) but if there were a sport where 14 year olds weren’t competing with 21 year olds, maybe I would start following ladies (sort of again).

Well maybe not but they would stand more of a chance.

And I love any idea where someone in their 20s is a silver fox

Alexz said:

Zhenya is 19. This new age-categories thing will work out for her just great. She is still has 1 year till 20. So she can work with Brian Orser for another on her PCS and adjust to new conditions, and correct jump technique (if she feels that needed) to be stable. Next year is her year to be in Women 20+ category. Less difficulty, more artistry. Less TES, more PCS.

Alina is soon-to-be silver fox. 3 more years.

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I just can't get behind this mentality that a skater is automatically "done" and can't compete with the other ladies as soon as she turns a certain age. Beyond any personal desire for longevity, I simply don’t buy it. It's easier to jump quads when you're younger, to be sure, but I believe if a grown woman can acquire a 3A then she can also acquire a quad. Who knows, Trusova might still have hers at 20.

The main flaw in your argument, I think, is that you are assuming figure skating fans either want all artistry and no technical difficulty (silver foxes), or all technical difficulty with minimal emphasis on artistry (jumping bean). I think the majority of us want both, regardless of how old the skater is.

All this talk of foxes has me thinking of Isaiah Berlin's "The Hedgehog and the Fox" essay. Which kind of figure skating fan are you?

Would this go for the boys, too?

(I think the feminine of "silver fox" is "glist'nin' vixen"?)

By the way, I just Googled "silver fox figure skating" and this thread came up number three on the first page.

The current ISU age limits, as of the previous July 1, are
(Advanced) Novice: at least 10, not yet 15
Junior: at least 13, not yet 19
Senior: at least 15

So there is overlap of ages, to account for the fact that different skaters develop physically and technically at different rates.

In all these age categories, there are top performers and also average skaters who might be the best in their country and good enough to compete internationally, but not good enough to compete for medals at top events.

Whatever system is in place, it should serve as many skaters as possible. If it can also provide better entertainment for audiences, all the better. But I would hate any set of rules that takes away competitive opportunities from skaters just because they didn't peak within a narrow age window or because their best skills happen to be those most associated with a different age group.

I could see adding another age category to allow top-jumping young teens at top-level big events and to allow older skaters to graduate to a separate top-level age category where quality and well-roundedness are expected to be worth more than jump difficulty.

I can see two different possible approaches to dividing the field.

1: Strictly by age, without minimal or no overlaps and similar rules and structures.

Advanced Novice 10-12 or 13: developmental only, including some international events but no series or television coverage

Developmental Junior 13-16 or 17: JGP-style events open to all age eligible skaters with expectations they will at least be attempting double axels, triples optional for girls; no triple axels or quad allowed in SP or FS; perhaps continental or a worldwide event, minimal media coverage

Elite Junior Ladies 13-16 or 17: same rules as current senior ladies rules or maybe soon allow one quad in the SP; televised Grand Prix with final, events at Euros/4Cs and Worlds (and Olympics in Olympic years if the IOC agrees to include athletes as young as 13) -- these might be held in the same venues at the same time as the senior events; just treat it like a separate discipline; or there could be a separate Junior Worlds just for skaters in this age group from all countries provided they have earned the same minimum scores as for senior Worlds at either Developmental or Elite Junior events during the season.

Senior Ladies over 16 (or 17 or 18? -- no age overlap with Elite Juniors or at most 1 year): same jump rules; increase the factoring of the PCS from 0.8/1.6 to 1.0/2.0 so that greater skating and performance quality will count more relative to the technical content

In this age-based division, skaters who can still execute maximum jump content at 18 or 21 or 28 would still be allowed to include it in the senior event.

Keep this event at Euros/4Cs as well as Worlds and Olympics, and the Grand Prix.

Then there could also be a "Masters Elite" event for skaters over 25 or 30, with rules that allow for fewer or easier jumps and put even more emphasis on performance quality. Whether this should be more similar to invitational professional entertainment-focused competitions or just sport for any adult skater who can meet expected technical standards, whether they would represent their federations or themselves as individuals, would be up for debate. Also whether there should be international championships or just a series of events skaters could train for and enter, for their own pride or for audiences, would be another question.


The other approach would be to have two elite international championship disciplines for ladies with very different requirements. The minimum age for both could be 13, no maximum age, although on average the ages of the competitors would skew younger in one event and older in the other.

Call them something like the Ladies' Athletic Skating Championship and the Ladies' Artistic or Well-Balanced Skating Championship.

The Athletic event would have the same rules and exist at the same competitions as the current senior event but would allow 13- and 14-year-olds to enter and might soon allow quads in the SP. If a 30-year-old athletic skater can still land enough jump content to qualify and to hold her own with the teens, more power to her.

The Artistic or Well-Balanced event would have a completely different format. Maybe a compulsory program that includes figures-like edge requirements as well as specified types of spins and jumps (which can be double or triple) and maybe a required musical style. And then a free program with a maximum of 4-6 jump passes (all triples allowed, no quads; max 2 or 3 combinations), more options for the numbers and kinds of non-jump elements, a higher factor for program components so they're worth significantly more compared to the jump content with fewer total jumps, and more time between the elements for skaters to use the skating skills and nonlisted elements for artistic purposes. And maybe more severe deductions/PCS penalties for falls and stumbles, larger factors for both the positive and negative GOEs, to encourage quality and discourage attempting risky difficult content just for the sake of difficulty.

If a 13- or 15-year-old can achieve good enough technical quality and performance quality to score well in this event, more power to her. But most of the top skaters here would probably be older.

If the rules are that different and the age limits are the same, would it be possible for a skater who is good in both areas to pursue both disciplines simultaneously? Or to switch from Athletic to Well-Balanced/Artistic in a season when she has been injured or is busy with advanced education or a full-time day job but with the option to switch back to Athletic the next year if her health or schedule allows?

Girls' bodies change as they turn into women. A 70-lb 4'10" girl may be able to do quads because she has a stick-thin body that she can rotate rapidly to complete all those revolutions. When she grows taller, starts to develop boobs and hips, with the inevitable weight gain, it is much harder to get high enough in the air to complete those revolutions, because her center of gravity has dropped.

Boys, OTOH, develop upper body muscles in the shoulders and back as they get older, which helps them to lift their bodies into the air to completely rotate 3As and quads.

I dont see issue with age limits really.
Imho what pushes older ladies out of the sport are injuries, and loss of motivation (take, for instance, all the ladies who retired after winning olympics).

If you divide the events by rules and emphases, e.g., Athletic vs. Artistic, then I think the male skaters should also have an option of entering an artistic event.

If we're just looking at athletic sport and dividing strictly by age, and if there is some overlap in the mid-late teen ages as is currently the case, then it might be appropriate for Ladies to have Developmental Juniors, Elite Juniors, and Seniors, whereas Men could have just Juniors and Seniors. Given the way male skaters tend to develop, there isn't really a need for an elite junior men's event. The 15 1/2-year-olds who are good enough to compete with the senior men already have that option. The 18-year-olds who are still developing their skills can stay junior till they age out.

I don't see whats wrong with what we have now.

Step Sequence4 said:

I don't see whats wrong with what we have now.

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I mean yes, we could have more competitions. But then we would either have less top skaters on each so dunno, most people would still watch 1 warm up

gkelly said:

If we're just looking at athletic sport and dividing strictly by age, and if there is some overlap in the mid-late teen ages as is currently the case, then it might be appropriate for Ladies to have Developmental Juniors, Elite Juniors, and Seniors, whereas Men could have just Juniors and Seniors.

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Men's should have Juniors, Advanced Juniors and Seniors, so that little boys who are several years away from even thinking about attempting triple axels, never mind quads, stop getting inflated PCS and therefore inflated overall scores that aren't reflective of their actual work just because they happen to possess a Y chromosome.

Mathman said:

Would this go for the boys, too?

(I think the feminine of "silver fox" is "glist'nin' vixen"?)

By the way, I just Googled "silver fox figure skating" and this thread came up number three on the first page.

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Well, we can consider boys too. But I'm OK if ladies would be getting more medals in figure skating since men in gymnastics are competing on more apparatus and therefore MAG getting more set of medals than WAG. Ladies will be getting more medals in figure skating.

Regarding your Google search. You probably are logined in your Google account/gmail now, and are visiting this forum quite often, but most likely just have not wiped your cookies in a long time. I got bunch of gray foxes and a link to urban dictionary at the very bottom of second page. :confused2:

Step Sequence4 said:

I don't see whats wrong with what we have now.

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Nothing is too wrong. But we see arguing. A lot of arguing. Figure skating is pretty much globalized sport already. We see a lot of heated debate worldwide. Not only on forums and not only in Russia. But between fs establishment and inside federations in many other countries. And partially I understand why. Female figure skaters tend to burn out at faster rate now than they used to, like 15 years ago.

Difficulty is on the rise, there is an active arms races in jumps department, sport is evolving. Younger generations getting more skilled and competitive at much faster rate than a previous generations. There are different reasons for that, but mainly it is due to global progress in coaching, spors nutrition and recovery methods. Besides nowadays teenagers are becoming mature much earlier than 15-20 years ago. And it is obviously a global phenomenon already. Young guns quickly becoming competitive and pushing their seasoned colleagues out of sport. But then they burning out fast too and getting kicked out of sport by even younger ones. Just few years later. This is especially problematic in the fields with depth like Russia in single ladies, soon to be in Japan and potentially Korea and USA+Canada. However many other countries would wish to have the same "problem". At it will probably be a global nightmare.

Besides a seasoned athlete which can dominate the field for 3-6 years are usually better for business and sponsorship than "unexpected star" for 1 single year. Sport needs a longer-term "hero", but not a queen for a day. Or at least 2-3 heroes, because rivalry is usually good for promoting the sport and making it more exciting. See Battle of Brians, or Yuna -vs- Mao rivalry. Sport promoters need long term heroes. It is harder to make business on queens for a day.

gkelly said:

If you divide the events by rules and emphases, e.g., Athletic vs. Artistic, then I think the male skaters should also have an option of entering an artistic event.

If we're just looking at athletic sport and dividing strictly by age, and if there is some overlap in the mid-late teen ages as is currently the case, then it might be appropriate for Ladies to have Developmental Juniors, Elite Juniors, and Seniors, whereas Men could have just Juniors and Seniors. Given the way male skaters tend to develop, there isn't really a need for an elite junior men's event. The 15 1/2-year-olds who are good enough to compete with the senior men already have that option. The 18-year-olds who are still developing their skills can stay junior till they age out.

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Why not. This could also be happening. The most important part is all 2 top-level categories in Men and Ladies should be equally prestigious competitive fields. Therefore should be eligible for Worlds and Olympics.

We can also have a slight overlap between age categories, using your terminology:

Developmental Juniors - age 13-16
Elite Juniors - age 15 - 21
Seniors - age 20+

Elite Juniors and Seniors could be eligible for Worlds and Olympics. The same Olympics, the same year, but in different age categories. Because frankly figure skating by current 15-16 year-olds is a sightly different sport than figure skating by 20+ year-olds. I repeat: different set of medals, but the same Olympics. Not the Youth Olympic games. Medals for different age categories should have the same prestige and value. It is rather important, otherwise all of these will not work. And younger skaters will still be trying to find a way to sneak into more prestigious competitions.

I would also would add a rule for Elite Juniors to be eligible for Olympics they need to compete in Elite Juniors for at least a year. This will make them to be 16 before getting into Olympics. Just like in WAG, where age limit for Olympics is 16. These measures will make everyone happy (well, most of us) and we can stop arguing. Jumping beans will have their chance to win medals due to their amazing athletic ability to land difficult jumps, and silver foxes will still be having possibility to win their medals by their skating qualities.

I just don't like your terms "Developmental juniors" and "Elite juniors". I would create some more appealing names for categories. Something like "single ladies technical figure skating" and "single ladies artistic figure skating". Or something nicer. I'm open for suggestions.

I am not sure that it is the time for such radical changes. 3 things. One is that the sport is not very popular outside Russia and Japan. Just compare the stands during competitions in different countries. Among various reasons one is that it is hard for the public to understand it. Making 2 competitions: short for 20+ and long for 15-20 will make things even more complicated. Especially when 20+ girls are allowed to compete in the long with 15-20 but vice versa is forbidden.

The second thing is that the generation revolution just started with Eteri's school followed by others. We don't know if Zagitova retires next season or learns 4F instead. We don't know if Rika comes with 4S and keeps competing until Bejing and further on. We don't know what is going to happen with 3A. May be in 5 years we shall have several 20+ skaters with 3A and quads.

The last thing is money. This proposition will require extra funding. And as we know it is going to be difficult. Much better one to my mind is introducing qualifications in the worlds/olympics cancelling 3 only rules. This will allow skaters like Leonova and other relevant "silver foxes" to compete while not punishing small feds. Whenever I suggested that the answer was there is no money for qualifications.

Alexz said:

I just don't like your terms "Developmental juniors" and "Elite juniors". I would create some more appealing names for categories. Something like "single ladies technical figure skating" and "single ladies artistic figure skating". Or something nicer. I'm open for suggestions.

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But then again, why shouldn't a 17-year-old be allowed to compete in the sport of "single ladies artistic figure skating" if she is indeed a single lady excelling in he artistic aspects of the sport?

We could call the "senior" division the Masters Class. This would address the problem that casual sports fans, especially at the Olympics, would probably come to think of the Senior Competition as being a show put on by skaters who are not good enough really to be competing at the Olympics or World Championships. We could try to sell the idea that what the seniors are putting out is "mastery of the full figure skating vocabulary" -- what a skater aspires to after she learns the acrobatic tricks. TV commentators and PR people would have to work hard to educate the piublic about what exactly the skaters are doing and why one skater got first place over another (secure edges, coherent choreography, etc.)

Then as a practical matter, we would need to convince the IOC that "higher, faster, stronger" isn't everything.

Alexz said:

I just don't like your terms "Developmental juniors" and "Elite juniors". I would create some more appealing names for categories. Something like "single ladies technical figure skating" and "single ladies artistic figure skating". Or something nicer. I'm open for suggestions.

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Single Ladies Ice Dance?

The thing is, there will be some athletic skaters who can maintain their athleticism and jumping ability well into their 20s.

So I wouldn't want to put them out to pasture into an event in which 3-3 combos or 3A are not allowed or not valued just because they've reached the age of 21. If they can still jump well enough to compete against teenagers, or against each other, on the strength of their athleticism, they should have an event where they're allowed to do so.

If the division between the top juniors and the top seniors is strictly by age, then each age group compete under pretty much the same rules, with opportunities to rack up points through jump difficulty, jump quality, difficult spins and steps, and all the program components.

Jump difficulty may be highest among the more athletic top juniors, but that doesn't mean that every elite junior medalist will be jumping the most difficult jumps, nor that every senior medalist will be watering down jump content or restricted to only lower content. The teens are allowed to rack up enough points to win through quality, and the 20-somethings are allowed to rack up enough points to win through difficulty, as well as vice versa.

Excellent skaters and performers with good jumps can win in both age categories, and excellent jumpers with good skating and performance quality can win in both age categories. Who wins any given event will depend who showed up and had a good skate that day.

Alternatively, if you want divisions by program type, then allow for plenty of age overlap with no maximum age in either event, make the rules significantly different, and call them by different names based on emphasis rather than the likely ages of the winners.