2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

LenaRadiFan · Jun 26, 2019

nussnacker said:
Oops, don't know if you can use that word here :roll5:

But besides that... what is fair? It might seem unfair to you, it will be fair to others.
FS is a subjective sport, and fairness will be there for some people, and others will be running around with their 'wuzzrobbed' mantras.

Guys, what you are talking about here are all subjective things, PCS is VERY subjective besides maybe TR, SS and CO, and even those three 'more objective' components will be a subject to subjective evaluation.
How do you estimate if someone's transitions are 0.5 points better than other skater, and not 0.25 or 0.75? Those are subjective measurements, you just can't expect the judges to get something evaluated 'right' (or more like what you just as subjectively want it to be), it's not going to happen.
And then that 0.25 point difference might make a crucial difference in points, we've seen many cases where skaters lose by a difference of less than a point.

And whether you want it or not, TES will affect PCS, because technical deficiencies do detract from performance and the impression it makes on the judges. But technical superiority on contrast, makes a great impression. It's easy to say "those should be separate", but when you're watching it live and someone lands magnificent jumps, it does matter and changes on our own outlook on performances. And having two panels would've never solved that issue too imo.

Like even with Zagitova/Medvedeva/Osmond skate off, I don't know who should've won, those were all very close imo. (to my subjective opinion, Zagitova's performances were the performance of the nights.) But obviously other people will see it differently and have their own opinions. Some will say Kaetlyn is the real OG, some will say Medvedeva,
there's no way to define it.

Moreover, it seems like there's no way to satisfy people: when PCS win against TES like in Lysacek/Plushenko case people will be upset. If TES wins against PCS people are upset again.

I don't mean unfair judging doesn't happen at all, it certainly does happen and we've seen accounts of some clear fixed judging over the years.
But overall, it certainly doesn't mean that all the judging done in so many years is wrong and all results should completely be thrown out of the window.

If someone has magnificent jumps of course it's going to influence the program, I meant more in a way that if you had two skaters that you'd put in about the same pcs category and one has a way higher tech content, but both are clean, in my opinion it can get a little iffy, even this is a hypothetical situation.

And to the 'what is fair' I understand that it's very hard to judge pcs and I try to be understanding but I do think that sometimes small fed skaters have a little disadvantage(not in a "wuzrobbed" way)

Alex65 · Jun 26, 2019

Vandevska said:
This is an interesting take.

I am pretty ok in terms of PCS because I've accepted the fact that it's biased (even in cases when you want to be objective, just as @nussnacker said about the magnificent jumps).

However, I'd like to see ISU invest more in making TES more objective as well. Have more cameras, let the judges rewatch in slow motion, it's very important. Deduct for jumps that are full-blade take off instead of toe pick take off. There are so many ladies that have magnificent jumps including no prerotation, decent height, and usually even transitions, and they still get less than those "top" skaters. It's really unfair.

Perhaps we should make a different thread about this, it's interesting to talk about, but not here.

Corruption TES is nothing compared to corruption of the PCS . There are, of course, cases when it is not enough the exaggerated PCS , and then the judges lose their conscience completely. But these are isolated cases and we all know about them.

Vandevska · Jun 26, 2019

Alex65 said:
Corruption TES is nothing compared to corruption of the PCS . There are, of course, cases when it is not enough the exaggerated PCS , and then the judges lose their conscience completely. But these are isolated cases and we all know about them.

Uf for sure. PCS are a mess.

Scott512 · Jun 26, 2019

Alex65 said:
Completely abandon the assessment of the PCS, as it is now.

Will the ISU go for that?

readernick · Jun 26, 2019

Alex65 said:
Corruption TES is nothing compared to corruption of the PCS . There are, of course, cases when it is not enough the exaggerated PCS , and then the judges lose their conscience completely. But these are isolated cases and we all know about them.

I actually disagree with this. PCS bias is real but the GOE on jumps/elements is often completely biased. Even worse than PCS in my opinion. When you compare the GOE top skaters receive for jumps or elements which are at best average to the GOE of lower ranked skaters with similar quality elements it is shocking.

I like the idea of rewarding quality but judges often just give skaters high or lower GOE across the board without really accessing the quality of each element. Some skaters get postive GOE for step outs and so on.... It is a real issue.

Alex65 · Jun 26, 2019

readernick said:
I actually disagree with this. PCS bias is real but the GOE on jumps/elements is often completely biased. Even worse than PCS in my opinion. When you compare the GOE top skaters receive for jumps or elements which are at best average to the GOE of lower ranked skaters with similar quality elements it is shocking.

I like the idea of rewarding quality but judges often just give skaters high or lower GOE across the board without really accessing the quality of each element. Some skaters get postive GOE for step outs and so on.... It is a real issue.

OK. Everyone has their own opinion . All the same, GOE inflation is a more obvious thing that can be more easily handled (if desired), because it is obvious even to an unpretentious viewer. At the same time, overvalued PCS are taken by many for granted and do not cause indignation, even if it is not there.

Alex65 · Jun 26, 2019

Scott512 said:
Will the ISU go for that?

I apologize for my English: I wanted to say - to change PCS sistem , because, it is now, this is 90% injustice, it based on factors not related to sports.

ruga · Jun 26, 2019

Would separating PCS and GOE panels help to reduce bias? I have never judged, but the judges have to look at the element carefully, decide the GOE and select the number, so it must take some time and cause judges to miss parts of the performance.

samkrut@mail.ru · Jun 26, 2019

Let's wait and see if ISU is going to change something in the assessment field. I will be fine if they don't. No matter what they do there will be angry fans. And as for me, I see "wuzzrobbed" and "overscored" every now and then, But I don't see unfair podiums in ladies when we talk about big competitions. There are just 2 exceptions: Saitama 2014 and Boston 2016. And both times there was just 1 "victim" - Anna Pogorilaya.

Alextrusova · Jun 26, 2019

[email protected] said:
Let's wait and see if ISU is going to change something in the assessment field. I will be fine if they don't. No matter what they do there will be angry fans. And as for me, I see "wuzzrobbed" and "overscored" every now and then, But I don't see unfair podiums in ladies when we talk about big competitions. There are just 2 exceptions: Saitama 2014 and Boston 2016. And both times there was just 1 "victim" - Anna Pogorilaya.

What places do you think Anna should have had in those competitions?

Elucidus · Jun 26, 2019

Vandevska said:
Perhaps we should make a different thread about this, it's interesting to talk about, but not here.

I made the thread about it already https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?78451

You can move PCS discussion there. There are quite a few interesting thoughts on that matter, btw.

Vandevska · Jun 26, 2019

Elucidus said:
I made the thread about it already https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?78451
You can move PCS discussion there. There are quite a few interesting thoughts on that matter, btw.

samkrut@mail.ru · Jun 26, 2019

Alextrusova said:
What places do you think Anna should have had in those competitions?

Third and second respectively.

vesperalvioletta · Jun 26, 2019

Alisa Fedichkina is at one of Mishin's camps in Florida. My expectations aren't high, but it's nice to see that she's still training.

katymay · Jun 27, 2019

Alex65 said:
Completely abandon the assessment of the PCS, as it is now.

Agree. It is unnecessary. (GOE plus levels accomplishes the same goal)

Vandevska · Jun 27, 2019

katymay said:
Agree. It is unnecessary. (GOE plus levels accomplishes the same goal)

It's a different kind of sport. Without PCS it's pointless to have programs, just let them jump and spin then.

Alex65 · Jun 27, 2019

Well, we could combine all non-sports factors that are now hypocritically hidden in the PC (reputation, flag, supporting the federation, past achievements, fan base, sponsors, etc.) into one correction factor, and publish its current value before each major tournament. The judges will only assess the quality of the program in terms of "fell-not fell." (Although in this they sometimes have differences too :laugh:

). Of course, this is all a joke and will never happen .

Tere19 · Jun 27, 2019

Is this the official poster for rostelecom cup 2019 ????
https://www.instagram.com/p/By-Ir7koDuN/

j00mla · Jun 27, 2019

Tere19 said:
Is this the official poster for rostelecom cup 2019 ????
https://www.instagram.com/p/By-Ir7koDuN/

No, it's fanfic

Fluture · Jun 27, 2019

j00mla said:
No, it's fanfic

Well, it was posted by the Olympicchannel and they used the same picture...

https://www.instagram.com/p/By8EmlZog81/?igshid=15syuwuf6qmsp

2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

LenaRadiFan

Alex65

Vandevska

U don't have to build the end of the world out it.

Scott512

readernick

Alex65

Alex65

ruga

[email protected]

Medalist

Alextrusova

Elucidus

Match Penalty

Vandevska

U don't have to build the end of the world out it.

[email protected]

Medalist

vesperalvioletta

katymay

Vandevska

U don't have to build the end of the world out it.

Alex65

Tere19

j00mla

Made in USSR

Fluture

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