Yuzuru Hanyu, Greatest Or Not The Greatest?
- Thread starter zanadude
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The six of them, plus Yagudin and Toller Cranston, do seem to be the names that come up most often in these discussions...
If we expand the list other names may be included. I agree Yagudin was great, but unfortunately his medical problem cut his career short. I love Toller Cranston so much, but he is in a separate list of great artists. Kurt Browning surely deserves to be among the stratospheric gods.
Chan &Chen are close but not quite there. So are my beloved Takahashi and Lambiel. Amazing skaters!
Chan &Chen are close but not quite there. So are my beloved Takahashi and Lambiel. Amazing skaters!
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With Yagudin and actually with Yuzuru, it's bittersweet to think what added achievements their health problems may have cost them and us, but on the other hand there's IMO a special added element to GOAT when it has to be fought for against your own physical barriers as well as your opponents (which is why the best of the Paralympics can reduce even hardened antisports people to tears)
(Oh and thank you for mentioning Lambiel, I love him to bits even and like to think he's a great example of someone who will be remembered more than decorated and technically perfect skaters, and not just because he is one of the two most classically handsome singles skaters for oh, ages
though eye candy, it is important these days)And it occurred to me reading both this and the Alina thread that we talk about the first to do this that and the other but as the technical demands keep rising, the body perfect gets younger, and the whirligig at the top keeps getting faster.... we may end up also remembering people as 'the last'... to get multiple Olympic golds (that may have already been and gone with men, it probably has with women) the last to get multiple Worlds (Nathan? or maybe his successor in the men, and heaven only knows with the girls coming along), the last to top the podium for a whole quad.
That would be... also bittersweet.
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you make your list, i will make mine
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He certainly will be on most lists of the “greatest figure skaters of all time.” And deservedly so based on his many achievements. But...
He won’t be on my list. I haven’t felt anything from Hanyu since 2012. He’s been leaving me completely cold for seven years. I find his programs (especially his free skates and exhibitions) to be interchangeable and mechanical. He’s like that student in school that knows exactly what to say to the teacher to get an A. That student doesn’t really understand what’s coming out of his mouth, but he read the textbook and knows it’s the right answer and will make the teacher happy. Hanyu’s skating is a lot like that. He robotically checks all the boxes because he wants that A.
you make your list, i will make mine
He won’t be on my list. I haven’t felt anything from Hanyu since 2012. He’s been leaving me completely cold for seven years. I find his programs (especially his free skates and exhibitions) to be interchangeable and mechanical. He’s like that student in school that knows exactly what to say to the teacher to get an A. That student doesn’t really understand what’s coming out of his mouth, but he read the textbook and knows it’s the right answer and will make the teacher happy. Hanyu’s skating is a lot like that. He robotically checks all the boxes because he wants that A.
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For ladies it must be Carol Heiss. Five straight championships,1956 - 1960, covering both ends of an Olympic cycle and the three in between.
In men's, Scott Hamilton won 4 straight, 1981 - 1984. He couldn't get 1980 because the entire Olympic podium decided to compete at worlds that year instead of bowing out (Robin Cousins, Jan Hoffmann, Charley Tickner, as well as 4th place David Santee) so Scott could not get a head start on his run.
There have been a couple of close calls since (but no cigar).
Patrick Chan won 3 golds and 2 silvers in a 5-year span, 2009 - 2013.
Alexei Yagudin won 4 golds, 1 silver and 1 bronze in a consecutive six-year period, but did not win four in a row. (Some pesky guy named Plushenko snuck in there
). Kurt Browning has 4 golds and 1 silver, 1989 - 1993.
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To me, Hanyu is the exact opposite. Far from "mechanical," I find his performances to be filled with subtlety and understated charm.
He is the student who is already two chapters ahead of the class, so he goes off on his own into uncharted waters, leaving teachers and classmates agog.
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For ladies it must be Carol Heiss. Five straight championships,1956 - 1960, covering both ends of an Olympic cycle and the three in between.
In men's, Scott Hamilton won 4 straight, 1981 - 1984. He couldn't get 1980 because the entire Olympic podium decided to compete at worlds that year instead of bowing out (Robin Cousins, Jan Hoffmann, Charley Tickner, as well as 4th place David Santee) so Scott could not get a head start on his run.
There have been a couple of close calls since (but no cigar).
Patrick Chan won 3 golds and 2 silvers in a 5-year span, 2009 - 2013.
Alexei Yagudin won 4 golds, 1 silver and 1 bronze in a consecutive six-year period, but did not win four in a row. (Some pesky guy named Plushenko snuck in there
Kurt Browning has 4 golds and 1 silver, 1989 - 1993.
Thanks for all these. They do emphasise, doesn't they, how many factors feed into who is a GOAT, the GOAT and my or your personal GOAT. Just in medals alone, the juggling of what is worth more in prestige, (3 World golds or 2 OGMs?, hell, from the POV of the athletes. 3 Worlds or one Olympic? - one World gold and nothing else, or say 4 silvers in a row?) And medal tally at first glance appears (hah!) to be one of the more straightforward criteria...
(Yuzuru's Quad - the two gold and two silver Worlds, the four gold GPF and oh yes, those really shiny Olympic bookends
- he did share with notfarfromGOAThood Javi :luv17: For me, a GOAT having a strong and brilliant competition doesn't detract, is actually more impressive than someone dominating against a group of now forgotten lesser rivals. And no one bother telling me I'm biased we all are)
So... have we officially gone the whole circle or not? The thread started with a claim that Yuzuru was not the goat. Then came a flood of posts convincing the OP that Hanyu indeed was the goat. Then other posters claimed that no, XY was the goat. To which many replied that whereas XY certainly wasn't the goat, it was a subjective theme. Then we briefly tried to find objective criteria how to define the goat and many came with the conclusion that we can have several goats i.e. goats belonging to different eras. To which many replied that well Hanyu was at least goat of this era, some disagreed. Others tried to find peace saying that several people can be a goat of an era. Some claimed that it was again subjective. Some claimed that Hanyu didn't belong into the list of their goats and others are again trying to convince the posters that while it's subjective
he indeed belongs there. Tell me, when we'll discuss European goats, or maybe not
hmm. censorship seems strong here... let me try again.
as a skater hanyu has many shortcomings and because of this he is not the greatest (even though he has been awarded many medals). the shortcomings being:
1. poor posture
2. shallow edges
3. skating skills that are not good enough to warrant 8s, 9s or 10s in PCS
4. lack of innate musicality (see: shoma, han yan, denis ten, julian zhi, sandhu, jason brown et al)
as a skater hanyu has many shortcomings and because of this he is not the greatest (even though he has been awarded many medals). the shortcomings being:
1. poor posture
2. shallow edges
3. skating skills that are not good enough to warrant 8s, 9s or 10s in PCS
4. lack of innate musicality (see: shoma, han yan, denis ten, julian zhi, sandhu, jason brown et al)
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Tell me, when we'll discuss European goats, or maybe not
I believe we have already mentioned (either on this thread or in passing on the ladies' thread) Ulrich Salchow, Gillis Grafstrom, Karl Shaefer, Ondrej Nepala, John Curry, Alexei Yagudin, Evgeni Plushenko, Stephane Lambiel and Javier Fernadez.
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Robin Cousins, Brian Boitano.
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And yet with all of that, he has earned the praise, admiration, and overflowing accolades of his fellow GOATs, his peers past present and future, his major opponents past present and future, most if not all the most respected commentators and experts, nearly all of the skaters and the skating fraternity, major choreographers who either would love to work with him or adore doing so, top coaches, many many judges and officials, musicians and artists from varying fields, fans all over the world old and new and even (from the polls just released) GS voters.
Perhaps his greatest skill is mass hypnosis, hmmmm? If he's got all these people so snowed....
So... have we officially gone the whole circle or not?
Let me try and sum up as someone trained in what passes for bureaucratese consensus...
Yuzuru Hanyu is currently considered by an unspecified but very large number of people worldwide to be one of if not the best male skater of the past quad, if not the present time, if not the decade, if not the IJS period, if not all time; is considered by an unspecified but large number to have a greater or lesser claim to some if not all of these; and is considered not to be any of these by an unspecified but probably smaller number, depending on how the number of pros and cons and how said numbers of people defines different categories and aspects and personal values of greatness, all of which have yet to be established in even the vaguest definition of consensus.
{deep breath}
And it all started with that blasted 4CC....
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Yet a director of an US ballet company saw this man with 'poor' posture's Olympic performance for the first time on TV and thought he was a formally trained ballet dancer who happens to be skating, and raved about his carriage and lines, only to be surprised later he really is just a skater. Nevertheless, she introduced his videos to her whole ballet troupe, who all became fans and performed a program dedicated to Hanyu recently in public.
This man with no 'innate musicality' gets 'music seem to ripple through his body when he is skating' as a common description by skating commentators, and performs with live musicians on his ice shows, all of whom could not praise his musical sensitivity enough. The classical pianist last year was so impressed, after the show he specially recorded a piano piece for Hanyu to use, and the singer this year cannot stop reliving his collaboration with Hanyu in his own concerts. Not to say a US musician this year decided to release an album based on Yuzu's program after being inspired by his Worlds performance. A US painter paints Yuzuru moments on ice and sold it to a public European art gallery for almost Euro 500K.
If there is so much shortcoming in his form and musicality, how come there are all these professionals from different fields out there being inspired by him to further create their own art, after coming in touch with him for the first time. As for skating skills - he does way less cross overs and more single foot skating than most of his competitors - this can easily be counted statistically, which people have done already. His edge might not be the deepest edge ever but it is far from shallow, especially compared with many of his current competitors.
There is no circle going on here, but really just three lines of arguments repeating itself, with no one convincing each other (of course), as follows:
Hanyu's fans: He is the GOAT, or one of the greats, or the great of his era, and here is a long essay as to why, be it titles, longevity, popularity, performance, personal charm or technical skills, or the whole lot.
Not dedicated Hanyu fan, but appreciates what he brings: He is one of the greats, or a great of his era, but there are other greats before too, and whilst we are at it, let's go down history lane and recount some of the past greats' achievements.
People who do not like Hanyu: regardless of his title or if he appears in the GOAT list frequently, he is not a GOAT for me because he does nothing for me.
Reminds me the latest musician that worked with him went home and bought poohs and put his puppy in pooh clothing... maybe his greatest skill isn't just mass hypnosis, it's also mass hypnosis for pooh appreciation
Shows or competitions with Yuzuru participating are soldout in record time while shows and competitions without him do not sell out. Did I mention the more recent competitions asked for astounding prices for tickets and were sold briskly! Obviously, the FS world fans are putting their $$ where their hearts are...so yeah, Hanyu obviously moves them! Skate America, Stars on Ice...without Hanyu, can only dream of a sellout crowd and a brisk secondhand ticket market!
<3 so true!! Here look at this, one of the worst performances of all time, so ugly and unrefined. Skating with such ugly precision and accuracy while being insanely fast during footwork. Just awful. He should quit skating with those god awful complex transitions into the 3A tbh so disgusting. He will never be goat because he has so little crossovers. Who tf actually sustains long edges that match the music's phrasing while doing it after complex turns and steps instead of crossovers like 95% of the men's field?? So old fashioned. I miss chan's dinosaur arms tbh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-7rZ4G1f0w
While this is a very subjective criterium for meassuring the goat-ness...
...Javi's ROI in Pamplona sold out just fine without him. In Madrid they had to add another date
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