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Maybe, in the technical program one thing they could do is have everyone do the same step sequence. That's kind of what they do in synchronized swimming
SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?
- Thread starter Lunalovesskating
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That seems like a very specialized area of interest... and may it remain so. 40 skaters doing something even more hypnotic than ice dance in a row might just boost the sales of day tickets, I suppose... no, really, I think it’s better left to the true enthusiasts
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But then, too, at the 1998 World Pro it was the East of Eden "artistic" program that remains one of the iconic masterpieces of all time. :yes:
Thank you for posting this. It makes things a whole lot clearer.
The main thing I see is that the Technical Program will be first, and the Artistic Program second. However I see all sorts of problems with this, namely that you will get all sorts of PCS controversies due to the second, deciding program having a much bigger weighting in terms of PCS. Also the more ‘exciting’ program, the one ‘with the jumps in it’ will be first, whereas you should really have the more exciting program last i.e. build up the tension, whereas it looks like the Artistic Program will be more of an 'exhibition type skate ' i.e. the current SP with one or 2 extra sequences added to it.
Another good thing is the clarity re the TES and PCS split for each program.
Playing around with some figures I see something like the following
Ladies
Technical Progam – aim for max TES 75, PCS 50
Artistic Progam – max TES 50, PCS 75
Max total about 250 (current world record 247), with PCS max 125 vs 120 now.
I think they would achieve this by dropping a jumping pass, maybe 2, from the current LP, add a sequence or 2 to the SP, then swap the programs around, that would be my guess.
For Men figures might be like
Technical Program – TES 90, PCS 60
Artistic Program – TES 60, PCS 90, with the same sort of structure as for the Ladies.
Have no idea what would happen with Pairs. If you start moving lifts, or jumps, either SBS or thrown, from one program to the other you're just going to end up with 2 identical programs, and if you end up with an Artistic program that has just one SBS jump and one thrown one together with maybe an extra lift + sequence then it's going to be pretty boring, and especially for something that's going to be the deciding program.
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I have already expressed my doubts, but what exactly they want to achieve? 40/60 split between components and elements isn't even easy to notice so average person watching Artistic and Technical program won't even notice the difference. Also, it's pretty boring to have both programs at the same length (and what will prevent the skaters from skating to the same music with a bit modified choreo in both programs?).
This change won't increase the importance of PCS, judges will continue to give the marks to consistent and technical skaters. It may even increase such scoring since skaters with difficult content will get the lead in Technical program and (if it goes before Artistic) the benefit of starting later and the reputation of leading skater.
If they really want to implement that, IMO it should look like this:
TP (ladies): 90/60
AP (ladies):60/90
TP (men): 120/80
AP (men):80/120
Though I'd be in favor of a third program where all these things could be balanced.
This change won't increase the importance of PCS, judges will continue to give the marks to consistent and technical skaters. It may even increase such scoring since skaters with difficult content will get the lead in Technical program and (if it goes before Artistic) the benefit of starting later and the reputation of leading skater.
If they really want to implement that, IMO it should look like this:
TP (ladies): 90/60
AP (ladies):60/90
TP (men): 120/80
AP (men):80/120
Though I'd be in favor of a third program where all these things could be balanced.
It is better to split the disciplines. If people enjoy solo artistic programs and concern for athletes health. Let's make it official. Call it Artistic Skating or something like that. Ban all the jumps except singles. That way we can attract people with different types of bodies. Make the sport more inclusive. In fact, it may result in huge ratings for the new sport.
As for the original Figure Skating, i think it is better to replace the current PCS with Speed, Edge control, Transitions, perhaps add something else, but you get the point. Increase the value of Spins, Stepsq, so skaters like Jason Brown could utilize their well-deserved advantage at those elements. Whatever marks are given to skaters should be 100% measured and explained. Complete transparency of the sport. No more reputational judging, no more strong federation influence. I'm sure, all the measurements could be done with technology in the near future
As for the original Figure Skating, i think it is better to replace the current PCS with Speed, Edge control, Transitions, perhaps add something else, but you get the point. Increase the value of Spins, Stepsq, so skaters like Jason Brown could utilize their well-deserved advantage at those elements. Whatever marks are given to skaters should be 100% measured and explained. Complete transparency of the sport. No more reputational judging, no more strong federation influence. I'm sure, all the measurements could be done with technology in the near future
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Figure Skating is already call "Pattinaggio artistico" in italian and "Patinage artistique" in french.
I'm curious about how it's called in other languages.
"Figure" is related to the old thing that existed before SP I think.
TES is a relatively new concept, like PCS
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Why don’t they just ban judges who blatantly cheat? That’s the main problem, and changing the scoring system won’t solve the problem. We wouldn’t be having this conversation if judges would only do their job correctly. For example:
*Giving the same component marks across the board, never giving a 7 in one category and a 9 in another. Just because a skater is good at transitions doesn’t mean they’re also good at SS.
*Rewarding skaters with high tech higher PCS.
*Giving the same component marks across the board, never giving a 7 in one category and a 9 in another. Just because a skater is good at transitions doesn’t mean they’re also good at SS.
*Rewarding skaters with high tech higher PCS.
Absolutely agree, but there are also regional bias that exist.
Some people love to watch fast sharp movement other prefer long held positions.
If you can’t quantify which is better having a judged sport will always result in bias.
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Why would the artistic program be the longer one, if it’s just steps, spirals and spins? If you make the whole program artistic, it should probably eliminate choreo sequence, being that the whole thing is about the interpretation already and so constitutes one long choreo sequence.
It’s the technical that should be longer to show all the jumping passes to demo the full arsenal of jumps and combos.
It’s the technical that should be longer to show all the jumping passes to demo the full arsenal of jumps and combos.
My understanding of the proposal is that the "artistic" program will still have jumps, probably more than the current short program, but less than the current freeskate or the new "technical" program.
Having a program with no jumps at all could be one way to go, but it does not appear that that is what the ISU currently has in mind.
We'll need to see the exact proposal before we can really figure out what we each like or don't like about it.
Having a program with no jumps at all could be one way to go, but it does not appear that that is what the ISU currently has in mind.
We'll need to see the exact proposal before we can really figure out what we each like or don't like about it.
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Logic, though? B/c it increases the grand total of jumps that way, and most vocal group of complaints I see is against figure skating becoming all about jumps. Or is it some sort of a point collection on doubles exercise to keep the value of allowable jumps artificially close to the value of the non-jumping elements?
ISU would be out of their minds to eliminate jumps in ladies' and men's artistic programs. Singles ice dance is not that appealing to general public. Most casual fans tuning into Figure Skating were first drawn to jumps (not necessarily quads but jumps in general).
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It would make sense again with the right music, but now it's not allowed hence why she doesn't do it...
It's still allowed. It just doesn't gain as many points as before, when all of the backloaded jumps got the 10% bonus.
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May be they can move Ice Dance and create new singles disciplines for it under Synchro umbrella and the competition cycle, leaving the sport figure skating with three disciplines, two singles and pairs (maybe potentially can add same sex pairs too eventually).
I think this is a pretty terrible idea. It seems like both programs would be about the same but one would be scored higher in tech and the other in presentation. How about this: keep the short and long but grade only jumps on tech in the long program. The rest would be graded on "presentation," like it was under 6.0. Maybe keep only three PCS categories--Performance, Interpretation and Composition. That would give skaters more incentive to include things like spirals, classic laybacks and scratch spins that are unrewarded in the current system.
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They are rewarded plenty. Anything but the cheater’s 6 point system... and why skating skill and transitions are not valuable?
How are they rewarded? There is no point value assessed to them. A skater who did a classic layback or scratch spin instead of a pretzel spin would lose points. Transitions could be considered as part of composition and skating skills as part of performance/execution.
