2015 NHK Mens Free Skate | Page 49 | Golden Skate

2015 NHK Mens Free Skate

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
I am not Jin's biggest fan, but I can't help but laugh at some haters seething at Boyang's success here. He may be in the first season but he clearly beat his competition. Numbers do not lie. Skaters fresh out of juniors medal and win every year, specifically in Ladies, nothing new here. Could he have gotten 6.9 instead of 7.6 in PCS, perhaps, but that's so irrelevant given the state of the rest of the competition. Even if Dornbush etc.got 1 or 2 points higher PCS, it would not justify putting him on the podium. Nor I think Jin's PCS should that much lower than Hochstein's or Tanaka's.

I'm not sure if you're labeling me in particular as a "hater," but to respond to your post: it does matter whether or not his PCS was marked correctly whether or not it would have altered the final results of this particular competition. If he had taken second overall - as he could have - on the strength of a well-executed short program and a FS with very high TES and not much performance quality appropriately marked with lower PCS, I would have been absolutely fine with that.

I disagree with your opinion that he out skated everyone else, certainly in the FS. Yeah he attempted more quads and landed the hardest one brilliantly, but he popped one and didn't do so well on the others - and for me, at least, looking at the criteria PCS is "supposed" to apply to, there wasn't a lot else there.
 

solani

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Country
Austria
I completely agree that jumps are very important in men's skating but I don't think plushy is famous only for his jumps. His best elements may be his jumps, yes, but I personally think what makes him so famous is his personality/ confidence. I'm no fan of his and the programs of his that I have watched have been...interesting, to put it nicely but he has a presence on the ice. He demands your attention. I think Yuzu has that too.
I agree and I want to add: Plushenko doing crossovers counts as transition. Period. :yes:
 

Rissa

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 11, 2014
I'm not sure if you're labeling me in particular as a "hater," but to respond to your post: it does matter whether or not his PCS was marked correctly whether or not it would have altered the final results of this particular competition. If he had taken second overall - as he could have - on the strength of a well-executed short program and a FS with very high TES and not much performance quality appropriately marked with lower PCS, I would have been absolutely fine with that.

I disagree with your opinion that he out skated everyone else, certainly in the FS. Yeah he attempted more quads and landed the hardest one brilliantly, but he popped one and didn't do so well on the others - and for me, at least, looking at the criteria PCS is "supposed" to apply to, there wasn't a lot else there.

Yes, that long needs work. Hopefully, as Jin grows more comfortable with his jumps and his skating skills improve, he will be able to include more transitions and perform more intricate programs.

Who choerographed Jin's LP? I think a Russian choreographer could be a good match for him, if Chinese choreographers aren't into creating more complex programs.
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
I'm not sure if you're labeling me in particular as a "hater," but to respond to your post: it does matter whether or not his PCS was marked correctly whether or not it would have altered the final results of this particular competition. If he had taken second overall - as he could have - on the strength of a well-executed short program and a FS with very high TES and not much performance quality appropriately marked with lower PCS, I would have been absolutely fine with that.

I disagree with your opinion that he out skated everyone else, certainly in the FS. Yeah he attempted more quads and landed the hardest one brilliantly, but he popped one and didn't do so well on the others - and for me, at least, looking at the criteria PCS is "supposed" to apply to, there wasn't a lot else there.

As someone who really, really likes Boyang I agree with you on the PCS issue. IMO, his SP is a lot of fun and he has great commitment and performs it well - but the LP isn't quite there (yet). I enjoy watching it, because he has something exciting about him and his joy is infectious for me, but going strictly by PCS criteria, he was scored too high.
I don't think it 'guarantees' him podium finishes though. All of Yuzu, Javi and Patrick (if they're halfway clean-ish) are favorites above him. And for now, I'd have my money more on Shoma too than on Boyang (even though I'm actually preferring Boyang). We'll have to see how it develops throughout the season, but I'd think if Boyang messes up his SP and skates in an earlier group, the judges would drop him like a hot potato :scard8:

And because I really like him: he said after CoC already that he knows he has work to do in the PCS department. And if you look at the difference between CoC and NHK, I think kid means business. So at the very least, we're not looking at someone who simply wants to bank on that one jump and go on reputation PCS (I know it's only slightly related to your PCS point, but I wanted to give him credit for that :) ).
 

MaxSwagg

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Shoma-Boyang is interesting. Thus far, Shoma easily beats him in components in the free skate but the differences in TES balance them out. In the short program, Shoma has only gotten 1 point more than Boyang in PCS. At this point, Shoma is behind in the short and equal with Boyang in the free. GPF will be interesting between them in terms of judges scoring...
 
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whatif

Medalist
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Shoma-Boyang is interesting. Thus far, Shoma easily beats him in components in the free skate but the differences in TES balance them out. In the short program, Shoma has only gotten 1 point more than Boyang in PCS. At this point, Shoma is behind in the short and equal with Boyang in the free. GPF will be interesting between them in terms of judges scoring...

When faced each other i am pretty sure Shoma will beat Jin by at least 3-4 points in PCS. I am not sure that would be enough to offset technical advantage on a given night.
 

sajoya

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
My thoughts exactly! The kid can rotate quads and in his first year in seniors he gets podium cred because he can land quad lutz combo and 3 messy quads in fp. :noshake: Boyang first needs to learn how to skate. Such a messy program and performance. For me, neither Boyang nor Mura belong on the podium. Both of them have too high PCS. Boyang should be receiving only in the 5s and 6s for PCS, not high 7s. No way that Boyang's PCS should be higher than Grant's!

Judging and the entire sport is so out of whack. The way fans and commentators make excuses for the judging and the crazy IJS rules is mind-boggling. Scoring is mostly all about politics, quads, reputation, quads and politics.

I know right? Screw the skaters that takes advantage of the quads because they can do it. Ugh, why do they have to rely so much on the scoring system? Do they really want to win that bad? :rolleye: :handw:
 

Rissa

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 11, 2014
When faced each other i am pretty sure Shoma will beat Jin by at least 3-4 points in PCS. I am not sure that would be enough to offset technical advantage on a given night.

Shoma's PCS at SA were almost 8 points higher (LP) than Boyang's at NHK, with Shoma having a cleaner skate. In my opinion Shoma's PCS will be rising faster than Boyang's because he's artistically better. If he proves consitent even with his one quad he will be rewarded more than Boyang, especially that Boyang's demanding layout means he will be more prone to messy skates. Whether it will be enough to offset Boyang's quads remains to be seen, but it could be.

Is Shoma learning a 4S? Seeing as Nam has just included a 4T into his repertoire, I'm guessing Shoma is planning to add another quad too. Worlds will certainly be interesting in that regard.

Out of curiosity, who was Yuzuru compared with when he first came onto the senior scene?
 

jace93

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Lol, of course. :laugh:

What about was his contemporaries, though, like we're already doing the Boyang/Shoma/Nam next generation predictions?

the thing was that mostof his contemporaries were just starting to turn heads in junior when Yuzu started reaping great result onto the senior stage... of all the people that fought with him on the junior stage and moved up to senior only gachinski was more or less his age.

I think at least during the summer of 2012 people were drawing comparisons between the two (both great technician, both having won a bronze medal at their first worlds) but during the 2012-2013 season Yuzu established himself as a serious contender for the olympic podium, while Artur after imploding at 2012 worlds never really found his footing again...
 

Leonardo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Shoma-Boyang is interesting. Thus far, Shoma easily beats him in components in the free skate but the differences in TES balance them out. In the short program, Shoma has only gotten 1 point more than Boyang in PCS. At this point, Shoma is behind in the short and equal with Boyang in the free. GPF will be interesting between them in terms of judges scoring...

Agreed about the SP, Boyang has a 3-5 point advantage. But in the LP Shoma can score 180+, Boyang can do it as well, but he's not as consistent as Shoma(Who is consistent with a 4-quad program anyway?).
 

Rissa

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 11, 2014
the thing was that mostof his contemporaries were just starting to turn heads in junior when Yuzu started reaping great result onto the senior stage... of all the people that fought with him on the junior stage and moved up to senior only gachinski was more or less his age.

I think at least during the summer of 2012 people were drawing comparisons between the two (both great technician, both having won a bronze medal at their first worlds) but during the 2012-2013 season Yuzu established himself as a serious contender for the olympic podium, while Artur after imploding at 2012 worlds never really found his footing again...

Thanks for that... I'm asking because I already have sort-of-an-idea who might be making their mark the next quad after Pyeongchang, from current youngsters (Nam, Pitkeev), newbies (Boyang, Shoma) and good juniors (Chen, Samohin, Sota, Aliev) and I was wondering in what configuration Yuzuru fit back when he still didn't have a quad and wasn't suspected to be any threat at the nearest Olympics as it seems to me that Yuzuru's meteoric rise was something unexpected. Were there no Artur/Yuzuru/D10/Kovtun will duke it out "after Sochi"? :laugh: It would be interesting to read from the perspective of time.

It also makes me wonder whether Jin or Shoma or Nam would be able to win at Pyeongchang... Winning seems unlikely but podiuming certainly not out of reach.
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Lol, of course. :laugh:

What about was his contemporaries, though, like we're already doing the Boyang/Shoma/Nam next generation predictions?

There was also Nan Song in juniors, alongside Artur. The closest thing afterwards I remember was Han Yan - when he won JW 2012, I think a lot of people compared him to Hanyu and predicted a long time rivalry. Funnily enough, I think there was also a bit of Yuzu vs Javi for the potential-to-upset-Chan discussions, with them coming in as the surprises of the 2011-12 GP series and their close finishes in CoR and the GPF 2011. And then they became skating buddies :love:

But those not-really-rivalries aside, I don't think Hanyu had a long term rival or even anything close to it. All of the possible 'candidates' are kinda stuck in limbo (looking at you, Hanee!) or Yuzuru kind of 'outgrew' them pretty fast.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
There was also Nan Song in juniors, alongside Artur. The closest thing afterwards I remember was Han Yan - when he won JW 2012, I think a lot of people compared him to Hanyu and predicted a long time rivalry. Funnily enough, I think there was also a bit of Yuzu vs Javi for the potential-to-upset-Chan discussions, with them coming in as the surprises of the 2011-12 GP series and their close finishes in CoR and the GPF 2011. And then they became skating buddies :love:

But those not-really-rivalries aside, I don't think Hanyu had a long term rival or even anything close to it. All of the possible 'candidates' are kinda stuck in limbo (looking at you, Hanee!) or Yuzuru kind of 'outgrew' them pretty fast.

And even with Hanee, he was already behind. After all the year Han won JW, Yuzuru won his first World medal.
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
^ That's true, but he's still the closest thing I remember ;)

(and he'd have the potential, he would have... :sad21: )
 

Rissa

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 11, 2014
There was also Nan Song in juniors, alongside Artur. The closest thing afterwards I remember was Han Yan - when he won JW 2012, I think a lot of people compared him to Hanyu and predicted a long time rivalry. Funnily enough, I think there was also a bit of Yuzu vs Javi for the potential-to-upset-Chan discussions, with them coming in as the surprises of the 2011-12 GP series and their close finishes in CoR and the GPF 2011. And then they became skating buddies :love:

But those not-really-rivalries aside, I don't think Hanyu had a long term rival or even anything close to it. All of the possible 'candidates' are kinda stuck in limbo (looking at you, Hanee!) or Yuzuru kind of 'outgrew' them pretty fast.

That makes me a bit nervous about the future. Artur didn't make it, Nan Song either, Han Yan stalled... I wonder how many of the current promising youngsters will meet the same fate and how many of my favorites will be amongst them. At least Javi is on the upwards trajectory!
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
That makes me a bit nervous about the future. Artur didn't make it, Nan Song either, Han Yan stalled... I wonder how many of the current promising youngsters will meet the same fate and how many of my favorites will be amongst them. At least Javi is on the upwards trajectory!

Well, agreed on that. It's harsh to say, but so many great talents never manage to realize their full potential. They might struggle with injuries, are getting more and more inconsistent, aren't finding the right footing... it makes guys like Yuzuru, Patrick and Javier all the more awesome, for staying at the top for so long. And that's also why people getting out their crystal balls years in advance isn't working. Getting to the top and staying there is that much more difficult than being 'that young promising talent'.

But hey, that still doesn't mean the current 'young squad' isn't awesome or their achievements any less impressive and fun :)
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Do you think the millions in the world who tune in to watch Olympic men's figure skating would actually be able to identify a 4-rotation jump versus a triple without being told by an announcer? Because those rotations go by awfully quickly, and I find it hard to believe that most of them can tell or really care. Not to mention that in the last Olympics, what they probably ended up thinking was blimey look at all those guys splatting on their jumps, I can't believe that the guy who didn't fall wasn't the winner. ;)

Why does it matter if millions and billions of people can't tell the difference between 4 rotations vs 3 rotations. The important thing is people do follow the sport DO care, and they are the patron of the sport. They appreciate the difficulty, risks, and pure sporting achievements to put out various quads/quads combos to push the boundaries in this Olympic sport - that YES sometimes at expense of artistry. Nobody is born a great artist without 'years of development' into a great artist. Those who seem to achieve the reputation young is likely to do so with clever packaging, which is the case I believe with Jason that is why I disagrees with his outrageous high PCS at home. I am hardly the only one. Look at the difference between his internationally judged marks vs home marked events. Observe how ill equipped he is able to handle his current intricate FS, his flaws are even more apparent. It is like watching a junior driver been given a Ferrari but only capable of doing 30 miles an hour on a hilly road, where as before he was always first on his Ford Automobile with automatic gear box in a familiar indoor circuit that just goes round and round predictably. While if you give the same gorgeous vehicle to say someone like Abbott, Rippon, Farris (or Shoma, Hanyu, Chan, Denis Ten, Menshov, Pitkeev...lots and lots of other people - I'd like to add Brezina but he falls more often than Kostner :drama:) they are all capable of doing a much better job. Also why do you think Adam put 4lutz in his arsenal at great risks to boost his image even if it means he risks consistency, but it still seem to get international judge's respect even he doesn't seem to get them at home?

Perhaps you give people too little credit. I may be very young when I started to watch figure skating, but I sure appreciate the great men who do quads and was in complete awe of them, while those who are off the podium are usually because they literally fell off the podium due to the higher risks of the quads. As much as some people like to deny it, prestige of the quads are a necessary ingredient to the excitement of the men's sport. Just like the big difficult 3/3 combos with the correct edge, 3As with beautiful take off, effortless landed and flow out are essential to the ladies, complete with beautiful elegance, musicality, all that glitter and graceful femininity mixed with athleticism. Silk and Steel. Iron butterflies on ice. With quads, the risk of the falls create powerful universal sense of drama/emotion thrills to the sport. Hearing the crowd collectively holding their breaths, gasping, long sighs feeling relief, disappointment, applaud to encourage the skaters, getting excited, the ambiance of it, standing ovations, wild applause, celebration, booing the judges etc... these are what sells the sport to people knows nothing about the sport.

Why don't people who complain about BYJ's PCS just admit it. They are worried he can get too close to Jason internationally, especially as his PCS climbed up steadily with his more consistent quads. ;) It is kind of double standard, they don't have a problem with quadless Jason scoring 96 PCS at US national beating the likes of Patrick and Hanyu at own Nationals with the quads, but have now problems with someone elses's PCS who only managed 76 PCS that was something like 5th PCS in the competition (and probably something like 9th~12th in the whole field), that did not affect the ranking. Especially when compare with Jason's last less than ideal outing (4t<, 3A<<, 3F+3T<) at skate America and still managed 85:slink: highest at the event. It certainly wasn't ridiculous inflated considering Boyang has been a contender to begin with, and there are many many more outrageous marks out there to complain about. His PCS will continue to rise, as he is now a two times GP Silver medalist in his first year 2 out of 2, while Jason has managed a silver and bronze at Skate America in 3 years, plus a silver at TEB13.


So are you saying that if someone doesn't appreciate Boyang and Hanyu, they're racist?

?? :scratch2: Where did you get this from my post? You know... this is not the first time you bring race into replying to my posts completely out of the left field. What is that you are really trying to say?
 
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