2018 Four Continents Ladies FS

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm afraid it'll take greater powers of persuasion and enlightment than you might possibly have to convince us that PCS should be affected by TES.

PCS certainly is affected by TES. Trust me...when someone lands a big 3a or wows the judges with technical goods they not only award higher GOE but it creeps into how generous they are with Component scores. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

I think people believe getting an 8.5 at one event is equal to an 8.5 at another event. I don’t think that’s necessarily true unless it is the same judges were comparing which I don’t think is very likely. Different judges have different scale of values. Again...nothing wrong with that.

 

[Alifyre]

I find it very interesting people say Zagitova is not "juniorish" when she is quite literally re-using a junior program... Frankly, I think the criticism "juniorish" doesn't mean anything super concrete and is very easy to throw around at skaters who people perceive to be more or less refined based on preference. Or at least, that's what I've gathered from reading comments containing the word. Each of the top competing ladies has her own style, and while one may be more technically difficult or better performed, they're all senior skaters who made it this far precisely because their programs are for seniors. We can make more concrete criticism of each of them for sure, so let's not act like all of these skaters, many of whom are either adult or near adult women, are childlike.

 

[ice coverage]

Wow, local announcer is interviewing Kaori in Japanese and interpreting into Taiwanese! Go dude! (I'm a translator, can't help myself : )

Into Mandarin? Or did you really mean Taiwanese?? (Not synonymous.)

I haven't seen the interview, but I would be surprised if the announcer interpreted into Taiwanese?? ...

... In anycase what the interviewer said in the stadium is indeed Chinese Mandarin.

And it was not Taiwanese. Which was the whole point of my original reply to Sai Bon. :yes:

Hoping we all can move on.

 

[MiRé]

PCS certainly is affected by TES. Trust me...when someone lands a big 3a or wows the judges with technical goods they not only award higher GOE but it creeps into how generous they are with Component scores. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

I think people believe getting an 8.5 at one event is equal to an 8.5 at another event. I don’t think that’s necessarily true unless it is the same judges were comparing which I don’t think is very likely. Different judges have different scale of values. Again...nothing wrong with that.

That's exactly what's wrong with the current system.

 

[OS]

PCS certainly is affected by TES. Trust me...when someone lands a big 3a or wows the judges with technical goods they not only award higher GOE but it creeps into how generous they are with Component scores. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

I think people believe getting an 8.5 at one event is equal to an 8.5 at another event. I don’t think that’s necessarily true unless it is the same judges were comparing which I don’t think is very likely. Different judges have different scale of values. Again...nothing wrong with that.

If that is the case why don't we see hikes for Boyang or Vincent?
What is the definition of a jumping bean and do they deserve highest PCS?

Do you see values in able to interpret, emote, performing to music and quality of choreography, ability to fine tuning nuaounces, subtlely, sensitivity, and able to seamlessly integrate them to give meaning beyond points crunching? If not, then it explains so much. The best painting is not because it has the most oil and colours on them...

 

[Alifyre]

PCS certainly is affected by TES. Trust me...when someone lands a big 3a or wows the judges with technical goods they not only award higher GOE but it creeps into how generous they are with Component scores. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

I think people believe getting an 8.5 at one event is equal to an 8.5 at another event. I don’t think that’s necessarily true unless it is the same judges were comparing which I don’t think is very likely. Different judges have different scale of values. Again...nothing wrong with that.

I dunno, I would like to be able to say that this is a sport and that there should be a standard where an 8.5 is an 8.5 no matter where you go. Because, you know, consistent standards of athleticism. I get that judges are human so discrepancies will be had, but the idea that there's nothing wrong with a total inability to compare scores between competitions baffles me a little. People steeped in the sport will notice and work with these issues because they understand the system, but for newcomers the way scoring works needs to be a little more accessible than "well, the competition was in X location so of course Y skaters did well."

 

[chopinskate]

PCS certainly is affected by TES. Trust me...when someone lands a big 3a or wows the judges with technical goods they not only award higher GOE but it creeps into how generous they are with Component scores. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

I think people believe getting an 8.5 at one event is equal to an 8.5 at another event. I don’t think that’s necessarily true unless it is the same judges were comparing which I don’t think is very likely. Different judges have different scale of values. Again...nothing wrong with that.

Which is also why I think WRs in Figure skating are bogus. It is annoying when there's very little transparency for GOEs and PCS to begin, it's even worse when we have different panels across events.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I dunno, I would like to be able to say that this is a sport and that there should be a standard where an 8.5 is an 8.5 no matter where you go. Because, you know, consistent standards of athleticism. I get that judges are human so discrepancies will be had, but the idea that there's nothing wrong with a total inability to compare scores between competitions baffles me a little. People steeped in the sport will notice and work with these issues because they understand the system, but for newcomers the way scoring works needs to be a little more accessible than "well, the competition was in X location so of course Y skaters did well."

But I wouldn’t expect that you and I could agree on what gets 9.25 and what gets 8.75. It’s hard for me to expect the judges to agree and if they did...the whole nine person panel becomes futile. I think skaters who have completely different qualities/style can get the exact same PCS marks. They just can do it in completely different ways with differing skills they focus on.

 

[largeman]

Just finished watching...

WT* is wrong with this tech panel?

 

[largeman]

OMG... I missed an entire heated debate about whether Taiwanese is a language? It's my favorite subject!

 

[Miss Ice]

I agree Mihara's performance was rather juniorish. Just skating through the elements. She did way better last year truth be told. I guess not being in the Olympic team must have wilted her confidence and her composure. Sakamoto on the other hand is still a junior skater. For those complaining why she is not getting Zagitova level PCS even though they have roughly the same juniorish style you have to remember the girl has been putting up 80+ TES programs entire season and embarassing her competitors. The judges love her. I don't expect you guys to understand that. As for Miyahara, the fewer words said the better but I do understand why people might overlook her puny UR jumps.

Those 80+ TES are also sketchy. There is little flowing edge, and some of those jumps are UR. She should be getting Kaori-level TES with that taken into account. Both Kaori and Mai have better flow out of their jumps than Zagitova, and they also have great control. That should balance out Zagitova's backloading. Some of the GOEs she gets is ridiculous and totally undeserved. Meanwhile, PCS should not be more than marginally impacted by TES. Otherwise, everyone should just start backloading and not caring about posture, sophistication, balance and flow, because hey, you just need to get the TES and then the PCS will automatically inflate... what a logic.

Also, the only area where Zagitova is better than Kaori is maybe TR. I would argue that Kaori is equal if not better than her at SS, CO. They are about equal in PE and IN. So in a completely objective judging, their PCS would actually be quite similar, with Zagitova having an edge in TR, and Kaori in SS, CO.

 

[karne]

If that is the case why don't we see hikes for Boyang or Vincent?
What is the definition of a jumping bean and do they deserve highest PCS?

Vincent got 89 PCS at US Nationals.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Um, definitely not going to read through this thread to see how that dialect convo started. Something I would like to talk about:

Alaine Chartrand was underscored. Her jump technique is a display of why it's so much harder to land jumps cleanly when you do less prerotation and some of these calls and GOE's she got were wrong I feel. To start with is the 3S she does in the 2A+half loop combo - yes the rotation was not perfect and she has wonky timing on this combo and I wish she would train a 2A+3T instead, but the rotation appeared borderline and she gets good spring on the jump, I would have liked to see benefit of the doubt given there. On the solo 3S later in the program I also think she deserved benefit of the doubt and it's interesting here to really look at the technique up close and where the jump leaves the ice. She does only 1/4 turn of prerotation and also jumps off the blade rather than rolling up to the toepick, which is pretty much unheard of these days. So much harder to jump like this. The landing becomes rocky exactly because of how much more work she's doing in the earlier part of the jump; yes it would be better in comparison if she did pre-rotate more and then land more backwards and with more flow, but in terms of calling this jump I think it should have been given credit for the rotation, with a -1 GOE.

Next up the Triple Flip. It's interesting that the initial impression by the judges was 0 GOE. Then the jump gets hit with an 'e' and < call and suddenly it's -2 GOE. Her edge is wrong yes but I don't think the < call was deserved. First of all, pre-rotation aside (and she does barely any on this jump), I wouldn't even say the jump was more than 1/4 short even by a metric of ignoring pre-rotation. Since she does indeed have a pressed outside edge on the jump, her blade curves over as she jumps, and if you look at the direction of the blade as she picks in and then where she lands, it is right there on the border. She lands every so slightly short of 1/4 if the jump had taken off exactly perpendicular to the side of the rink, but she doesn't take off perpendicular, her blade is curving a little in the opposing direction on takeoff. So moving onto the GOE here - she does a big jump with very little pre-rotation that is landed essentially clean, just a bit of turn on the landing but not jarringly so. Even with the edge call, I would say the initial 0 GOE given to the jump is what the result should have been here.

Then finally her second Triple Lutz. The underrotation call on this one is correct, but I don't agree with the -GOE being given. Again she lands it essentially clean and gets enough lift on the jump, there's no reason to punish the jump further. All totaled, Alaine lost over 5 points on the jumps from what I think would be a more accurate assessment.

 

[Alifyre]

But I wouldn’t expect that you and I could agree on what gets 9.25 and what gets 8.75. It’s hard for me to expect the judges to agree and if they did...the whole nine person panel becomes futile. I think skaters who have completely different qualities/style can get the exact same PCS marks. They just can do it in completely different ways with differing skills they focus on.

I think that the 9 judge system is what is supposed to guard against excessive arbitrariness, because I fully agree that two people no matter how well trained may have differing opinions. However, when the judgements of the 9 vary wildly between competitions, that's a different story. If we are going to guard so strictly against outliers by having nine entire people judging every event and dropping high/low scores, then why are greater efforts not being made to standardize judging across events? Skaters with different qualities can absolutely get the same PCS marks (and then people will debate endlessly here on if one or the other deserved it based on preference lol), my point is more that the difference between competitions should not be so stark.

Do the ladies at euros deserve to be rewarded in PCS? I would not say no. But then when I come off of euros and come here, I don't think that the ladies at 4CC are so much less talented/skilled/whatever that the highest PCS at 4CC should have been approximately 7 points lower than the highest PCS at euros (Medvedeva vs Miyahara), or that the gap between the first place skaters at each event's free skate should be 7 points apart (Zagitova vs Sakamoto). Ignoring tech, are Zagitova and Medvedeva good skaters who deserve high PCS? Absolutely, and I'm not even a fan. Are they really that much better than the 4CC skaters? Perhaps that comes down to preference, but as we have established that we need to control for preference by having 9 judges at a single event. So where is the controlling for preference across competitions?

 

[Miss Ice]

Um, definitely not going to read through this thread to see how that dialect convo started. Something I would like to talk about:

Alaine Chartrand was underscored. Her jump technique is a display of why it's so much harder to land jumps cleanly when you do less prerotation and some of these calls and GOE's she got were wrong I feel. To start with is the 3S she does in the 2A+half loop combo - yes the rotation was not perfect and she has wonky timing on this combo and I wish she would train a 2A+3T instead, but the rotation appeared borderline and she gets good spring on the jump, I would have liked to see benefit of the doubt given there. On the solo 3S later in the program I also think she deserved benefit of the doubt and it's interesting here to really look at the technique up close and where the jump leaves the ice. She does only 1/4 turn of prerotation and also jumps off the blade rather than rolling up to the toepick, which is pretty much unheard of these days. So much harder to jump like this. The landing becomes rocky exactly because of how much more work she's doing in the earlier part of the jump; yes it would be better in comparison if she did pre-rotate more and then land more backwards and with more flow, but in terms of calling this jump I think it should have been given credit for the rotation, with a -1 GOE.

Next up the Triple Flip. It's interesting that the initial impression by the judges was 0 GOE. Then the jump gets hit with an 'e' and < call and suddenly it's -2 GOE. Her edge is wrong yes but I don't think the < call was deserved. First of all, pre-rotation aside (and she does barely any on this jump), I wouldn't even say the jump was more than 1/4 short even by a metric of ignoring pre-rotation. Since she does indeed have a pressed outside edge on the jump, her blade curves over as she jumps, and if you look at the direction of the blade as she picks in and then where she lands, it is right there on the border. She lands every so slightly short of 1/4 if the jump had taken off exactly perpendicular to the side of the rink, but she doesn't take off perpendicular, her blade is curving a little in the opposing direction on takeoff. So moving onto the GOE here - she does a big jump with very little pre-rotation that is landed essentially clean, just a bit of turn on the landing but not jarringly so. Even with the edge call, I would say the initial 0 GOE given to the jump is what the result should have been here.

Then finally her second Triple Lutz. The underrotation call on this one is correct, but I don't agree with the -GOE being given. Again she lands it essentially clean and gets enough lift on the jump, there's no reason to punish the jump further. All totaled, Alaine lost over 5 points on the jumps from what I think would be a more accurate assessment.

Actually it's funny that many ladies who pre-rotate only 1/4 or less on the flip often tend to get a flat or ! edge (Yuna in the beginning of her career, Wakaba, Alaine in this case, Karen?). It probably has to do with the timing, that they have to keep the inside edge for just long enough so that they jump directly off the toe pick, so there is no time to make sure the edge is strictly inside.

 

[Ares]

OMG... I missed an entire heated debate about whether Taiwanese is a language? It's my favorite subject!

People so far only scratched the surface of the problem aka varieties of Chinese language (sometimes unintelligible with each other) . There were also ... 26 Formosan languages that are completely unrelated to Chinese as they're from Austronesian family (Chinese from Sino-Tibetan). But only 2% of people from Taiwan are Taiwanese Aborigines and much less of them use those languages, at least 10 are extinct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Taiwan

 

[Ares]

Actually it's funny that many ladies who pre-rotate only 1/4 or less on the flip often tend to get a flat or ! edge (Yuna in the beginning of her career, Wakaba, Alaine in this case, Karen?). It probably has to do with the timing, that they have to keep the inside edge for just long enough so that they jump directly off the toe pick, so there is no time to make sure the edge is strictly inside.

Unfortunately this is this is the time when skaters are ironically punished for striving and possessing good technique so they're sacrificed.

 

[Jedi]

Congrats to the medalists!

Happy for Chartrand doing much better too here even with the URs. It's a pity she couldn't do this at Nats.

Also, where are all the classy comments saying Kazakhstan should be giving up their spots for Japan (like how people said for the Canadians)? :sarcasm:

Actually tonnes.

 

[jenaj]

Taiwanese is not a real thing whether or not the author of that Wikipedia article likes it. It’s called the Min dialect like someone has pointed out already. The spoken Min dialect in Taiwan is only slightly different than the Min dialect spoken in the Fujian province (where it originated from) in China or by the Hokkien (Fujian) Chinese people in parts of Singapore, Malaysia and other South Eastern Asian countries, due to generations of geographical seperation (think of British English vs American English). There may also be differences in the usage of popular slangs in these regions for the same reason, but it’s all essentially the same language. There’s a recent movement in Taiwan in search of a “Taiwanese identify” separate from the the island’s Chinese origin, and referring to this particular dialect as “Taiwanese” as opposed to the “Min dialect” (which is what it was common referred to up until 20 or so years ago) has naturally become an integral part of the movement. But the arbitrary naming of it really doesn’t change the fact that it IS basically the Min dialect.

I don't purport to be an expert on the various dialects used in Taiwan over the centuries, but the original point was that, whatever dialect is native to Taiwan and whatever it is called (Taiwanese, Min dialect, whatever), it it not Mandarin. Mandarin was imposed on Taiwan as the official language in the 1940s.

 

[dalenofff]

Vincent got 89 PCS at US Nationals.

Vincent got 87.34 at US National , and Dmitri ALIEV got 87.44 at Europe, both just came up from Junior and Vicent won it last year. So everyone is guilty of inflated score