2019-20 GP and JGP Final: Day 3

randomfan

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What is your idealized version of a perfect score on a component. It is not really even towards you, I was actually just wondering if they have official textbook animations somewhere (not real skaters) that they demo the desired execution of each graded element to use as a benchmark. Most people seem to use real skaters as examples instead. Is that what you use instead when grading by comparing to someone or is there other way you (or the judges) envision the perfectly executed stuff?

AFAIK there isn't official information posted anywhere for components. But then, I was never an actual judge myself, so maybe they might have access to something private.

As for my own methods on grading PCS, I generally don't like using certain skaters as benchmarks; this kind of comparison is difficult because skaters have different styles from each other and use different music. Instead, I first study the PCS judging criteria, then look at the music being played for each individual performance, and think about the best possible way the skater can present the music according to their own style to match the criteria for each PCS category (basically this is a 10). This is mainly for PE, CO, and IN, as SS and TR look more at the skater's basic abilities making them more difficult to analyze. For those two, I pay attention to what the skater has displayed on that particular day for that particular program, and compare it with what the criteria asks for. Admittedly I'm not too great at analyzing SS on my own just yet, so that's the category out of the five that I find myself looking at the criteria the most for. While I agree that the system is flawed because of how subjective and open it is, it's unfortunately the system the judges have to follow for now anyways. So to minimize the natural bias while judging as much as possible, I never refer to the PCS marks I gave for a previous performance, which is why I get surprised when I see coincidences in the scoring like for Sasha Trusova's PCS.

I actually have never given a 10 to anybody as of yet, though I'm now considering doing some men's events so that may change. Some of the ones who I remember came very close (9.50-9.75) are as follows:
Yuna Kim's Danse Macabre (PE)
Carolina Kostner's Ave Maria (SS/IN)
Mao Asada's Nocturne No. 2 (CO/IN)
Akiko Suzuki's O (CO/IN)
Alena Kostornaia's The Leftovers (TR)
 

zounger

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For the SP ladies PCS my score would have been 36 to Alina weighted more on PE, IN, CO, SS. 34 to Anna waited more on PE, IN, CO marks and 33-34 for Alena weighted more on TR, SS and less in IN, PE than others. I would have Bradie around 33, Rika 32-33 and 30-31 Alexandra.
 

lariko

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AFAIK there isn't official information posted anywhere for components. But then, I was never an actual judge myself, so maybe they might have access to something private.

As for my own methods on grading PCS, I generally don't like using certain skaters as benchmarks; this kind of comparison is difficult because skaters have different styles from each other and use different music. Instead, I first study the PCS judging criteria, then look at the music being played for each individual performance, and think about the best possible way the skater can present the music according to their own style to match the criteria for each PCS category (basically this is a 10). This is mainly for PE, CO, and IN, as SS and TR look more at the skater's basic abilities making them more difficult to analyze. For those two, I pay attention to what the skater has displayed on that particular day for that particular program, and compare it with what the criteria asks for. Admittedly I'm not too great at analyzing SS on my own just yet, so that's the category out of the five that I find myself looking at the criteria the most for. While I agree that the system is flawed because of how subjective and open it is, it's unfortunately the system the judges have to follow for now anyways. So to minimize the natural bias while judging as much as possible, I never refer to the PCS marks I gave for a previous performance, which is why I get surprised when I see coincidences in the scoring like for Sasha Trusova's PCS.

I actually have never given a 10 to anybody as of yet, though I'm now considering doing some men's events so that may change. Some of the ones who I remember came very close (9.50-9.75) are as follows:
Yuna Kim's Danse Macabre (PE)
Carolina Kostner's Ave Maria (SS/IN)
Mao Asada's Nocturne No. 2 (CO/IN)
Akiko Suzuki's O (CO/IN)
Alena Kostornaia's The Leftovers (TR)

Thank you for replying
 

lariko

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I’m not sure if this is what you’re asking about, but several years ago the ISU did a whole series on program components and at least parts of it have been posted on YouTube:

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL701076590A417C26

They take quite a long time to watch but for me they were really interesting and I learned a lot.

Thank you, I will bookmark to check it in the off season. I am not exactly going to go past ‘oh, I love it/the character interpretation based on the lyrics or work of literature’ because I don’t have musicality beyond basic rhythm recognition, but I am curious about how people who do have it think.
 

randomfan

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For the SP ladies PCS my score would have been 36 to Alina weighted more on PE, IN, CO, SS. 34 to Anna waited more on PE, IN, CO marks and 33-34 for Alena weighted more on TR, SS and less in IN, PE than others. I would have Bradie around 33, Rika 32-33 and 30-31 Alexandra.

How about for the FS? Just curious to see others’ opinions :biggrin:
 

Colonel Green

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Following up on my earlier comment:
France is looking at a generational opportunity in the 2022 team event, the way things have been shaping up so far, between Aymoz, James/Cipres and Papadakis/Cizeron.
...uh, yeah, in light of today's news, forget about that. Canada vs. China vs. Japan for bronze it is, then.
 

dancelion21

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I'm super proud and happy of Chock/Bates for placing 2nd and I'm really looking forward to US Nationals. They beat Hubbell/Donohue outright here, and I think that C/B can win US Nationals this year. I feel guilty for liking C/B free dance so much since it is quite questionable in terms of cultural appropriation, but they perform it super well, and it's super enjoyable to watch. In ice dance in general, I don't really understand the levels, so I just watch for entertainment, and I think ice dance is the most entertaining discipline, so it's my favorite. I think that's why I like C/B so much, since they're always fun to watch.

I'm super happy that Anna was able to get 2nd and place above Sasha. Anna is the most vulnerable out of 3A for getting the worlds spot, and she still is, but beating Sasha here at the GPF is huge for her and definitely makes her the favorite for getting the third worlds spot.

I'm proud of Alysa Liu for winning the silver medal. Her skating skills and performance aren't as good as some of the other junior girls, but she is improving quickly, and I'm excited to see her in the future, and what other improvements she can make by US Nationals and Worlds.

In terms of scoring in the men, Nathan Chen is definitely the deserving winner for being able to pull off two completely clean programs. I think that the scoring is a bit over the top, but gap with which he won by isn't really that important compared to the rankings, which were accurate, so I don't have my pitchforks out at the ISU.

Overall, it was a great event, and I agree with the placements of everyone here, so I don't think I have much to complain about.
 

lariko

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Following up on my earlier comment:

...uh, yeah, in light of today's news, forget about that. Canada vs. China vs. Japan for bronze it is, then.

Russians will not be able to compete as a team, I assume, given yesterday’s news. Unless you feel Italy is in the second position. I am looking forward to a no news is good news day tomorrow.
 

Dreamer57

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I thought that Kamila and Shun's free skates were wonderful! It's great to see his reaction at the end, after he knows that he has skated so well.
I was also pleased by Chock & Bates FD and Alena winning the senior GPF one year after winning the junior competition! :)

Russians will not be able to compete as a team, I assume, given yesterday’s news. Unless you feel Italy is in the second position. I am looking forward to a no news is good news day tomorrow.

I think they can compete under the Olympic athletes from Russia flag, like they did in Pyeongchang?
 

skylark

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Belatedly (ahem ... I was engaged in a serious binge watch, and I hadn't even opened the internet til now!) returning this thread to discussion of the skating on Day 3 of Jr/Sr GPf:

Dance

Madison and Evan. I think what makes their FD so unstoppable is a combination of 3 things: 1. The storyline, of Maddie being a snake, while Evan can't decide whether she's a snake or a woman, has such mythical undertones and is seductive while also being sort of wholesome because of Evan's and Madison's ice personalities. So, it theoretically can please both "camps." 2. Again, Marie France is a genius at bringing out qualities that are in her skaters' wheelhouse already, without making those qualities over-obvious. In C/B case, the way Madison can "crawl" all over Evan's body, creating such curving shapes, while Evan heroically keeps his steadiness and footing, is something that's been there for years ... using the snake motif is genius-ly appropriate! and 3. Evan has such a tongue-in-cheek, almost whimsical look about him, and it's so lovely to see his personality emerge in this program, alongside Maddie's show-biz acting.

Gabriella and Guillaume. It's funny how much criticism they're getting for this FD, considering the loud complaining that's been going on for years that P/C need to diversify their style. Well, here it is, not just diversity but real originality, in both programs. I'm completely drawn into their FD skating, as usual, and I think the audio-book tone is compelling. It underlines the music and intensifies the drama that Gabi and Guillaume do so well. I find it to be just the right combination of emotional bombast, almost, with a subtle "dream of love" quality.

Hubbell and Donohue. I just go along with what they present, and I enjoy them so much! These are for me the top 3 ID teams, and I feel very lucky to be able to enjoy such diverse styles in skating and programs. I haven't seen the movie "A Star Is Born," and I think I'm lucky not to know the story, because I can simply be along for the ride and go with the music and feelings. By the way, for anyone who finds their RD music a challenge, I recommend going along with the camp/nostalgia of the 1950s, and Madison's excellent Marilyn Monroe looks. Also, remember Cole Porter wrote "My Heart Belongs to Daddy," and he always wrote with sly tongue-in-cheek ... so I feel the music doesn't have all the angst that gets assigned to it.

Piper and Paul. I can't believe how much I love their Joni Mitchell skate. They really portray the love story aspect, with the undertone of longing. I think it's lovely that they don't try for the angle of world-weariness that could otherwise drag the program down. Very well done, although "Starry Night" is still my favorite.

Ladies

Bradie Tennell has nerves of steel, to skate so nearly clean in that competitive field. Bradie can do the math, so she knew what she was up against, and yet she didn't let that prospect rattle her in the least. I thought that Without saying it, she seemed to relish the opportunity to skate as a woman, with mature skating she's crafted over the past couple of years. She's working on her performance qualities this year, and she let that be her focus, while doing her best to maintain and raise her technical level. If everyone could spin like Bradie, I wouldn't be nearly as bored during most single ladies' (and most men's) spins, which can seem like an exercise in racking up the necessary points.

Alena Kosternaia is breathtaking, delicate, angelic and athletic all in the same breath. And her artistry is built into her stroking, transitions, and elements, which to me is putting the horse before the cart, where it belongs. I'm very happy to see the judging rewarding her skating quality. And quite happy that she's competing with her triple axels now, so she's not at such a tech points disadvantage as she'd otherwise be.

Rika Kihira is also a complete skater who I love to watch. I'm sure that as she gets stronger and over the effects of her injury, we'll see her 3lutz again and her consistency rise. I love the concept of her FS, and also the way she expresses it.

Men

Nathan Chen. Nathan Chen! He continues to surprise, and to show his versatility, charm, and dance-ability on the ice. Such talent and hard work and healthy emotional perspective, in nearly equal measure.

Yuzuru Hanyu. I'm baffled by cries about his PCS, because I thought they were where they should be ... all I could see were his concentration on jumps, and his fatigue in the 2nd half of the program.

Kevin Aymoz. I think his emotion in skating is perfectly matched with his character. It's all harmonious and expressive. I feel that's also true of Nathan and Yuzuru, when both are skating at their best. I feel as skating fans we're very lucky to see such diverse styles expressed so beautifully.
 

lariko

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I thought that Kamila and Shun's free skates were wonderful! It's great to see his reaction at the end, after he knows that he has skated so well.
I was also pleased by Chock & Bates FD and Alena winning the senior GPF one year after winning the junior competition! :)



I think they can compete under the Olympic athletes from Russia flag, like they did in Pyeongchang?

ISU will clarify, I am sure, but my reading was that the escalation this time is that it’s not going to be OAR, just individual athletes. They did have independent group last time, so I was wondering if that’s what WADA had in mind for the Russians. I will be happy to be proven wrong.
 
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