2020-21 Japanese Ladies' Figure Skating

sakurano

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
wow a lot happened in a weekend
It’s good to see her again, I hope she stays healthy.

about Kaori’s 4T in view of the results it gets without I wonder if it your risk , because even if it is too early to say it , it has the means to be number two Japanese


wow Wakaba did it and he's almost ready to go girl you can do it. She also has a really good EX hip hop I had fun watching her and it's good to see her shine.

I'm still struggling with Mako and Tomoe's style but they did more or less well, there were some mistakes but they can make up for it in the upcoming competitions.

Rika's assignment to IDF surprised me too bad that I won't be able to see this 4S live, she's improving, I understand why she stays in Switzerland for the moment and she looks happy.

What happened to Sara Honda she who was so promising last year ? I have the impression that things are going badly for the Honda sisters :(
 

Greengemmonster

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 22, 2019
Rika's assignment to IDF surprised me too bad that I won't be able to see this 4S live, she's improving, I understand why she stays in Switzerland for the moment and she looks happy.
She looks sooooo happy there! My only concern was that no one else there had the big jumps but when I saw Shoma I thought "Ok Rika my darling you can go jump 3As and quads to compete with Shoma"
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Sara can't train with Raf right now. She also grew a lot. Not having an in person coach has been difficult for everyone this year. Give her time, she may be even better next year!
 
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sakurano

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
Sara can't train with Raf right now. She also grew a lot. Not having an in person coach has been difficult for everyone this year. Give her time, she maybe even better next year!
oh ok I understand thank you for the precisions
she must be 13 years old now? it's just that it worried me a little bit but indeed this season is not normal.

She looks sooooo happy there! My only concern was that no one else there had the big jumps but when I saw Shoma I thought "Ok Rika my darling you can go jump 3As and quads to compete with Shoma"
yes I don't know if she's going to stay long term in view of the crisis, but she managed to stay there and fortunately she's not alone, there's Koshiro, Deniss and Shoma.
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
She does. However, I do think she should continue to practice the 4T but only put it in her program if she manages to rotate it on a frequent basis . The reason is that both Wakaba and Mana Kawabe could score higher with clean programs. They are both landing 3As now. Mana tends to Ur half her attempts, but she is very very close. Wakaba doesn't UR, and she is very close to landing it well. Kaori can still win because she has PCS and GOE advantage. But, if Wakaba and Mana can become consistent, they have the SS and (certainly Wakaba anyway) the performance ability to get high PCS.
The judges never seem to like Waka ba in the PCS scoring, although 3A does have a mysterious way of raising it. Also, I feel like since the Olympic year fiasco last time, Higuchi has chosen to greatly proritize peaking at Nationals over consistency during the season. While this can be successful, it comes with the probability of hurting your reputation with the judges, which gets reflected in GOE and PCS scoring. Add to the fact that she pretty much went 2 seasons without much success, due to injury and weight issues, thus she is significantly behind Sakamoto in PCS with the judges now, whom she was ahead of back in that Olympic year. On a separate note, PCS scoring now has become a second technical mark with reputation and judging bias thrown in. Very little if any of the presentation aspect of the 6.0 scoring remains, so I question the necessity of even having PCS anymore to tell the truth.
 

gotoschool

Medalist
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
I was very happy to see Mai back on the ice - she seemed so happy. I hope that she continues her recovery and gains her strength back. I would hate to comment on her physical appearance especially not knowing all the details surrounding her illness.

Kaori looks soooooo good. I am really shocked - she generally is not in her best form early on in the season. I think the rough go last season really renewed her.

As for the ladies in Japan Open - excited to see Wakaba land her triple axel. Mako also looks much better than last season but overall the ladies seemed... not their best.
I didn't really mean to reply but hit return before I realized it. I was really moved emotionally to see Mai back on the ice too and besides her thinness her skating was so smooth, expressive and beautiful with such fluid movement and skating. She's a true artist. To me, she is really good example of how beautiful expression and artistry take on a value that can't be quanitified in a system. Kaori presented an impressive combination of power, smoothness and speed, and I am wondering if she is in better shape so early because Mai is back on the ice, since I heard that she was really upset last year because she wasn't competing, but this is a distant memory so I am not sure it is accurate. I was impressed with Wakaba's speed, crispness, expression and articulation of movement to their music and the quality of her jumps when she landed them. Hopefully, she can iron out the mistakes as the season progresses. Yuhana Yukoi's expression, costume, program and choreography was really charming and brought a smile to my face a couple of times. I hope she can get her jumps down and some more crispness in the step sequence to make it shine even brighter as the season progresses. Her expressions, character and costuming in the program reminded me some of Mao's I Got Rythm and Puttin on the Ritz.
 
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readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
The judges never seem to like Waka ba in the PCS scoring, although 3A does have a mysterious way of raising it. Also, I feel like since the Olympic year fiasco last time, Higuchi has chosen to greatly proritize peaking at Nationals over consistency during the season. While this can be successful, it comes with the probability of hurting your reputation with the judges, which gets reflected in GOE and PCS scoring. Add to the fact that she pretty much went 2 seasons without much success, due to injury and weight issues, thus she is significantly behind Sakamoto in PCS with the judges now, whom she was ahead of back in that Olympic year. On a separate note, PCS scoring now has become a second technical mark with reputation and judging bias thrown in. Very little if any of the presentation aspect of the 6.0 scoring remains, so I question the necessity of even having PCS anymore to tell the truth.
I don't want to think about what skaters performances would be like without any PCS. scores to worry about. I agree that in ladies' skating over the past few years, PCS has risen and fallen with consistency and technical content but I don't think that is the case in the other disciplines to the same degree.

About Wakaba, if she can land the 3A consistently she will get higher PCS. At 4CC last year, Young You got almost 70 in PCS and Wakaba is a far better skater and performer than You. ( No hate to You, but I have seen her in person and her ice coverage was well below average, very few transitions / and not exactly committed to the performance). Mana is also really fast across the ice and if she lands the 3A, her PCS and GOE will rise. 18 months is a long time, Kaori shouldn't just assume she can't be out jumped or out skated. She should continue trying to improve, and increase her technical content.
 

ali0125

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
Country
Australia
Congrats to Mai for a great come back- wish her best of luck and stay healthy!

I think now it's even harder to predict who will be taking Japan's second and third spot in ladies - Kaori, Satoko, Wakaba and now Mana. I couldn't tell who is more advantaged at this point, and it's going to be interesting!
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
I don't want to think about what skaters performances would be like without any PCS. scores to worry about. I agree that in ladies' skating over the past few years, PCS has risen and fallen with consistency and technical content but I don't think that is the case in the other disciplines to the same degree.

About Wakaba, if she can land the 3A consistently she will get higher PCS. At 4CC last year, Young You got almost 70 in PCS and Wakaba is a far better skater and performer than You. ( No hate to You, but I have seen her in person and her ice coverage was well below average, very few transitions / and not exactly committed to the performance). Mana is also really fast across the ice and if she lands the 3A, her PCS and GOE will rise. 18 months is a long time, Kaori shouldn't just assume she can't be out jumped or out skated. She should continue trying to improve, and increase her technical content.
I just haven't heard or seen anything that would indicate that Kaori is anywhere near landing a quad. She can try some in practice, but I wouldn't waste too much energy on it if I was her. She will probably do better with more limited goals. Wakaba on the other hand not only needs to get the 3A consistently, but try to be as clean as possible in all competitions from now on to impress the judges, and not just try to peak at the end. Mana is the wildcard. And of course they all trail Rika by a mile right now. To me Wakaba would be the only one with a chance to compete with Rika, but she has to keep improving steadily and quickly. The problem for all of them is that Rika keeps improving too. Of course injury and unforseen things can always happen, as we are seeing right now.
 

gotoschool

Medalist
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
I don't want to think about what skaters performances would be like without any PCS. scores to worry about. I agree that in ladies' skating over the past few years, PCS has risen and fallen with consistency and technical content but I don't think that is the case in the other disciplines to the same degree.

About Wakaba, if she can land the 3A consistently she will get higher PCS. At 4CC last year, Young You got almost 70 in PCS and Wakaba is a far better skater and performer than You. ( No hate to You, but I have seen her in person and her ice coverage was well below average, very few transitions / and not exactly committed to the performance). Mana is also really fast across the ice and if she lands the 3A, her PCS and GOE will rise. 18 months is a long time, Kaori shouldn't just assume she can't be out jumped or out skated. She should continue trying to improve, and increase her technical content.
I think Wakaba is a little underscored in PCS as my comments in my last post suggested. I respect the right to different opinions, but I disagree about Young You's lack of rink coverage and ability to give an engaging performance. I have completely the opposite sensation about her rink coverage because her speed and the fact that she places many of biggest jump elements near the boards are two features that really draw me into her performances. Her jumps also have wonderful loft, beautiful air position, and she combines this with flexibility and a good dose of gracefulness and some lovely extensions and expressions considering her power skater way of plunging into the elements. She is also relatively tall which gives her a stately presence on the ice especially when landing the triple axel. However, I do think she needs to improve the quickness and smoothness of her edges in the step sequences. which is a common need for most skaters. I like Mana a lot too, and think she has dramatic expressiveness developing in her skating with her fleet movements across the ice and lovely and dramatic arm movements. I really liked her Swan Lake performance last year and thought she should have finished third at the Youth Olympics. I just hope she is able to get a little more loft on her jumps.
 
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Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
I don't want to think about what skaters performances would be like without any PCS. scores to worry about. I agree that in ladies' skating over the past few years, PCS has risen and fallen with consistency and technical content but I don't think that is the case in the other disciplines to the same degree.

About Wakaba, if she can land the 3A consistently she will get higher PCS. At 4CC last year, Young You got almost 70 in PCS and Wakaba is a far better skater and performer than You. ( No hate to You, but I have seen her in person and her ice coverage was well below average, very few transitions / and not exactly committed to the performance). Mana is also really fast across the ice and if she lands the 3A, her PCS and GOE will rise. 18 months is a long time, Kaori shouldn't just assume she can't be out jumped or out skated. She should continue trying to improve, and increase her technical content.
The 'problem' with Wakaba in this exact competition is lack of context between the elements. She was too much concentrated on the jumps during the whole programme (and that's why her PCS suffered). Also her spins, she struggled to achieve a proper sit position. Those are the things i think she can change the most easily (if she works on them) and how she would win that competition for example :biggrin:
 
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ali0125

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
Country
Australia
I respect the right to different opinions, but I disagree about Young You's lack of rink coverage and ability to give an engaging performance. I have completely the opposite sensation about her rink coverage because her speed and the fact that she places many of her biggest jump elements near the boards are two features that really draw me into her performances.
Not taking about PCS, just my impression - Young You does have great speed and coverage and her jumps are among the best looking too, but I find her performance is very rush and her prep of 3A is almost across 1/3 of the rink? Surely she has a lot of potential after she switched from Tom Z to Mie Hamada. Wakaba's skating on the other hand is always very powerful and emotional, I think that goes with age and experience too.
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Not taking about PCS, just my impression - Young You does have great speed and coverage and her jumps are among the best looking too, but I find her performance is very rush and her prep of 3A is almost across 1/3 of the rink? Surely she has a lot of potential after she switched from Tom Z to Mie Hamada. Wakaba's skating on the other hand is always very powerful and emotional, I think that goes with age and experience too.
Have you seen Young in person? Fast is not a world I would use. Her ice coverage was far less than all the other major skaters at the event I watched and that was without doing many transitions. I suppose she is fast compared to Alysa Liu but she wasn't compared to the Japanese or American ladies at that same competition. She does have beautiful jumps, but that is not a PCS requirement. I am sure she will improve artistically. She is very young. The point of my post was not to start an argument about Young or insult her, but to show that Wakaba's PCS will go up if she lands the 3A. What Young/Wakaba have in common is big jumps without a lot of transitional content. However, You got great PCS despite that when she landed her 3A. Wakaba is a much faster skater than You, and a better performer. Transitions are not their strong points. Wakaba should include transitions, but her PCS will improve regardless if she lands the 3A. Young's did.
 

ali0125

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
Country
Australia
Have you seen Young in person? Fast is not a world I would use. Her ice coverage was far less than all the other major skaters at the event I watched and that was without doing many transitions. I suppose she is fast compared to Alysa Liu but she wasn't compared to the Japanese or American ladies at that same competition. She does have beautiful jumps, but that is not a PCS requirement. I am sure she will improve artistically. She is very young. The point of my post was not to start an argument about Young or insult her, but to show that Wakaba's PCS will go up if she lands the 3A. What Young/Wakaba have in common is big jumps without a lot of transitional content. However, You got great PCS despite that when she landed her 3A. Wakaba is a much faster skater than You, and a better performer. Transitions are not their strong points. Wakaba should include transitions, but her PCS will improve regardless if she lands the 3A. Young's did.
No, not seen Young in person - I know TV distorts the reality but counting time she's moving across the rink gives me the confident that she has great speed (couldn't match to some Japanese girls I know especially Kaori - her SS is from another world, even better than Kosto imo). I could be wrong tho. Anyways, Mie Hamada is one of the best coaches in teaching edge and basic SS, and hope Young could be an all-rounded skater in near future!

Wakaba is one of my favourite. While I do think she's underscored (like many others who don't have a famous coach), she really needs to have more clean skates and a better program to lift PCS. I feel judges factor in consistency in PCS (or some people say reputation).
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Have you seen Young in person? Fast is not a world I would use. Her ice coverage was far less than all the other major skaters at the event I watched and that was without doing many transitions. I suppose she is fast compared to Alysa Liu but she wasn't compared to the Japanese or American ladies at that same competition. She does have beautiful jumps, but that is not a PCS requirement. I am sure she will improve artistically. She is very young. The point of my post was not to start an argument about Young or insult her, but to show that Wakaba's PCS will go up if she lands the 3A. What Young/Wakaba have in common is big jumps without a lot of transitional content. However, You got great PCS despite that when she landed her 3A. Wakaba is a much faster skater than You, and a better performer. Transitions are not their strong points. Wakaba should include transitions, but her PCS will improve regardless if she lands the 3A. Young's did.
Did Mirai PCS 'improve' with 3A? No. Did Tuktamysheva PCS 'improve' with 3A? No. So, if your whole programme is based on preparation of the jumps, your PCS will never improve. I mean, in that case they will be scored the same way. I think Young in her performances was more comfortable with her other jumps and spins comparing to all skaters i mentioned, so it was easier for her to be concentrated on the things outside the required elements. If Wakaba can get to that point (of being more comfortable with her planned elements) her PCS will rise, but that has little to do with the simple fact of her performing 3A or not.
 
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wanpe

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Have you seen Young in person? Fast is not a world I would use. Her ice coverage was far less than all the other major skaters at the event I watched and that was without doing many transitions. I suppose she is fast compared to Alysa Liu but she wasn't compared to the Japanese or American ladies at that same competition.
FYI, I've seen both of them & American ladies at the 4CC and even went to practice sessions.
You wasn't the fastest but she was fast even compared to American ladies.
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
No, not seen Young in person - I know TV distorts the reality but counting time she's moving across the rink gives me the confident that she has great speed (couldn't match to some Japanese girls I know especially Kaori - her SS is from another world, even better than Kosto imo). I could be wrong tho. Anyways, Mie Hamada is one of the best coaches in teaching edge and basic SS, and hope Young could be an all-rounded skater in near future!

Wakaba is one of my favourite. While I do think she's underscored (like many others who don't have a famous coach), she really needs to have more clean skates and a better program to lift PCS. I feel judges factor in consistency in PCS (or some people say reputation).
I agree about the reputation aspect of Pcs. But I also think 3A will help too. To my eye, if you compare Sakamoto and Higuchi in general in the 5 components of PCS, they both have strong SS, Sakamoto is clearly stronger in transitions, but Higuchi is clearly stronger in the last 3 more performance/artistic based components. To me the fact that Sakamoto gets the edge over Higuchi in PCS is due to her greater success over the last few seasons, and not because of superior ability. This is just my opinion though.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
The lead that Kaori has gotten during the 2018-2019 season won't deflate unless Wakaba start to be consistent with 3A. Even an inconsistent Kaori got better pcs than Wakaba in all programs last season, even when she did poorer (ex: nats, 4cc).
I think the scores Kaori got these last 3 years at nats and her assignements show the confidence that fed have in her abilities to deliver in big competitions. Getting the pcs she had in the free at last nats and the 4CC spot was quite generous.
I think i never saw scores that high in regionals (maybe Rika in her 1st season?)
Wakaba needs consistency first to compete with Kaori (get close to 75 in SP and 140+ in FS), then 3A to expect to beat a clean kaori.
 
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