2020-21 Japanese Ladies' Figure Skating

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
But you said Osmond was "never considered the best in the world" when objectively she WAS the best in the world.

Zagitova was arguably the skater in the world that year who got the best results (though some might argue Medvedeva was the better skater)... but at the 2018 World Championships, Osmond was the best skater, hands down.
The rankings were based on your last 3 years results. Zagitova was in her first senior season. In Olympic years, being Olympic champion carries more weight than winning world's. Im sure you know that. Jeez.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
The rankings were based on your last 3 years results. Zagitova was in her first senior season. In Olympic years, being Olympic champion carries more weight than winning world's. Im sure you know that. Jeez.

Ah okay, so you agree that Sotnikova, Arakawa and Hughes were the best skaters of the 2013-2014, 2005-2006 and 2001-2002 seasons because they won the Olympics in those years?

Osmond wasn’t the best skater in the 2017-2018 season - Zagitova overall was - but she WAS the best skater in the World at one point as evidenced by her unquestionably (unless you’re using Wakaba-fan scoring ) winning the World Championships.

It is ridiculous to suggest she was “never considered the best” in the world.... when she has a World title to her name. I was sure you knew that. :laugh:
 
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Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
You cant possibly misunderstand what I said as much as you are pretending. You made some legitimate points earlier, but now you seem to be out of ammunition my friend. I made what I thought was an interesting comment about the judging of a relatively recent Worlds, involving a Japanese woman on the Japanese womens thread. So then I am subjected to hours of often incoherent babble from people who refuse to actually listen to my points and seem to be mostly concerned in blind nationalistic allegiance than actual skating. I like a back and forth discussion, but not with a brick wall. Lol
 

Osmond4gold

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
You cant possibly misunderstand what I said as much as you are pretending. You made some legitimate points earlier, but now you seem to be out of ammunition my friend. I made what I thought was an interesting comment about the judging of a relatively recent Worlds, involving a Japanese woman on the Japanese womens thread. So then I am subjected to hours of often incoherent babble from people who refuse to actually listen to my points and seem to be mostly concerned in blind nationalistic allegiance than actual skating. I like a back and forth discussion, but not with a brick wall. Lol
Blind nationalism, hardly. Funny how judges from 9 different Feds. including the Japanese judge, saw things differently than you. Keep in mind that the 2 skated back to back, as well.

 

lurkerghost1

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
Im not talking about Osmond's SP that year. Im talking about Osmond's SP that competition. She got an unclear edge call and almost put a hand down on a sloppy landing on her lutz, and did put a hand down to keep from falling on her butt on a butchered 2A. And you say she deserved the 7 pt lead she had on Wakaba after that mess? Go to YouTube and watch it, and I guarantee you, you will apologize to me for being mistaken.
That error on the lutz costs her about 1.5 points in GOE, the error on the axel cost her about 2.5 points in GOE. Let's say take another point in PCS for the mistake...all in maybe 5 points of deductions. So her score of 72 makes perfect sense considering she scored 77 and 78 at the GPF and the Olympics. I have no problem with her 36 PCS, she had an amazing program and was the fastest skater in the competition.

Wakaba had a fall which cost her about 4 points in GOE and the 1 point fall deduction, then a level 3 step sequence which scored about a point lower than a level 5 with the BV and GOE reductions. Then lets give her a point deduction for PCS for her fall, that's seven points of deductions so from 65 --> 72 for a clean performance. Her season's best that year was only

Do I think that her PCS was way too low? Yes, it's one of my favorite programs of all time and the step sequence is just unbelievably engaging. But the whole season the judges were lowballing her in PCS, it's obvious they didn't like the program. I can imagine all these old farts don't like her epic shoulder shimmy because they don't think it's "proper" or whatever.

This was not the case of Kaori this past worlds, where her PCS were artificially lowered way below what she was getting internationally before. Wakaba was never a favorite of the judges, there are a whole lot of reasons for that which I think have to do with body standards but that is a conversation for another time.
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Blind nationalism, hardly. Funny how judges from 9 different Feds. including the Japanese judge, saw things differently than you. Keep in mind that the 2 skated back to back, as well.

Im not talking about the judges. Im talking about the people I was discussing this with. I don't mind that they disagree with my opinion. I do mind that that they constantly seem to twist and deliberately misinterpret the points I make. I was trying to have a legitimate discussion. To take the fact that in an Olympic year, the overwhelming majority of skating people put more importance on the Olympics than Worlds, and twist that to mean that whoever wins the Olympics that year is automatically considered the best skater in the world, leaves me at a loss for words. The Olympics are especially known for big upsets in skating.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Im not talking about the judges. Im talking about the people I was discussing this with. I don't mind that they disagree with my opinion. I do mind that that they constantly seem to twist and deliberately misinterpret the points I make. I was trying to have a legitimate discussion. To take the fact that in an Olympic year, the overwhelming majority of skating people put more importance on the Olympics than Worlds, and twist that to mean that whoever wins the Olympics that year is automatically considered the best skater in the world, leaves me at a loss for words. The Olympics are especially known for big upsets in skating.

I’m not twisting your words but I’m pointing out that you are cherry picking what constitutes a great skater and attempting to trivialize Osmond’s World title and ignore the math that clearly put her ahead of your favourite.
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
That error on the lutz costs her about 1.5 points in GOE, the error on the axel cost her about 2.5 points in GOE. Let's say take another point in PCS for the mistake...all in maybe 5 points of deductions. So her score of 72 makes perfect sense considering she scored 77 and 78 at the GPF and the Olympics. I have no problem with her 36 PCS, she had an amazing program and was the fastest skater in the competition.

Wakaba had a fall which cost her about 4 points in GOE and the 1 point fall deduction, then a level 3 step sequence which scored about a point lower than a level 5 with the BV and GOE reductions. Then lets give her a point deduction for PCS for her fall, that's seven points of deductions so from 65 --> 72 for a clean performance. Her season's best that year was only

Do I think that her PCS was way too low? Yes, it's one of my favorite programs of all time and the step sequence is just unbelievably engaging. But the whole season the judges were lowballing her in PCS, it's obvious they didn't like the program. I can imagine all these old farts don't like her epic shoulder shimmy because they don't think it's "proper" or whatever.

This was not the case of Kaori this past worlds, where her PCS were artificially lowered way below what she was getting internationally before. Wakaba was never a favorite of the judges, there are a whole lot of reasons for that which I think have to do with body standards but that is a conversation for another time.
First off, you make some good points. Yes, the judges had been overscoring Osmond as compared to Wakaba all year. That is true. That doesn't make it correct, but it was predictable. And yes, it did surprise me the way Kaori was scored in PCS this World's, because she also had been overscored in PCS for the last few years IMO. And yes, Wakaba has been underscored her whole career, and body type prejudice is part of it, oddly more so in her own country. However, you made some errors in your argument. First off, Wakaba lost 3.30 pts on the fall compared to her clean score on it in the LP, not 4. Step level is not an error, its a judges opinion on the elements in the movement. I never said Wakaba should have been leading. I was making the point that to me, Wakaba was a little lowballed in the SP and Osmond was overscored in comparison since she was sloppy on 2 of her 3 jump elements. Therefore, to me, they should have been significantly closer after the SP. And since Wakaba was superior in the LP, to me, I thought it was enough for Wakaba to win the gold there. I was not saying this was a shocking robbery. I was simply saying that after watching it on replay after a few years, I had forgotten how sloppy Osmond was, and that Wakaba deserved the win there. I said the judging was a joke, not for having Osmond win, but for having a 12 pt gap.
 

Osmond4gold

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Im not talking about the judges. Im talking about the people I was discussing this with. I don't mind that they disagree with my opinion. I do mind that that they constantly seem to twist and deliberately misinterpret the points I make. I was trying to have a legitimate discussion. To take the fact that in an Olympic year, the overwhelming majority of skating people put more importance on the Olympics than Worlds, and twist that to mean that whoever wins the Olympics that year is automatically considered the best skater in the world, leaves me at a loss for words. The Olympics are especially known for big upsets in skating.
"Im talking about the people I was discussing this with".

I think you need a wider lens here, Joe. When you hang out in one Forum continuously, you may be closed to the views expressed by others. Just b/c you and BoP share the same opinion on this thread, does mean the world agrees with you, or thinks the results of Worlds 2018, were wrong.
 

chasingneverland

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
To be a great skater you have to be consistent over an extended period of time. Osmond was not. If she was a great skater, her medals in 2018 wouldn't have been so surprising. When she was on her game she was very good, but was never considered the best in the world, even after she won world's. Sakamoto is absolutely a more consistent jumper over her career than Osmond was. Sakamoto is more awkward and brute force, sure, but much of their style is similar: great speed and power, exciting, but bordering on out of control, and edge issues. Neither is great in my book.
This is an interesting argument because it came from a Wakaba vs Kaetlyn argument. Now, I LOVE Wakaba but consistent, she is NOT. I mean both of their World's medals were not exactly expected. Also Wakaba has her own edge issues and is very much also a power skater.
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
I’m not twisting your words but I’m pointing out that you are cherry picking what constitutes a great skater and attempting to trivialize Osmond’s World title and ignore the math that clearly put her ahead of your favourite.
What am I cherry picking when it comes to what constitutes agreat skater? It is only my opinion, afterall. Are you telling me that in an Olympic year the Olympics are not considered a more important competition to a skater than World's? I can't believe that. And the math in skating is simply cover for the judges opinion it is based on. We have the 6.0 system in disguise now, to make the corruption less obvious. And Osmond was very good her last 2 seasons, but not great in my opinion. Is that an insult?
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
This is an interesting argument because it came from a Wakaba vs Kaetlyn argument. Now, I LOVE Wakaba but consistent, she is NOT. I mean both of their World's medals were not exactly expected. Also Wakaba has her own edge issues and is very much also a power skater.
You must have missed the part in this thread where I stated that Wakaba's career so far in international competition cant even be considered very good, let alone great. Yes, she is my favorite and has great talent. But outside of 1 season she has been very disappointing in competition. You can like a skater and be honest too, Its not hard.
 
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chasingneverland

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
You must have missed later on in this thread where I stated that Wakaba's career so far in international competition cant even be considered very good, let alone great. Yes, she is my favorite and has great talent. But outside of 1 season she has been very disappointing in competition. You can like a skater and be honest too, Its not hard.
I think it's hard to be objective for alot of people.

For the record, I DO want Wakaba on the Olympic team next year. But I also want her to be more consistent..
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
I think it's hard to be objective for alot of people.

For the record, I DO want Wakaba on the Olympic team next year. But I also want her to be more consistent..
Wakaba will need consistency and a 3A.The judges do not like her in Japan at all. Kihira and Sakamoto(who the Japanese judges LOVE) are almost locks. Matsuike is very well liked(by me also), Kawabe is very dangerous with a possible 3A, and Mihara is the sympathetic choice. Wakaba definitely has her work cutout for her. Being objective is doubly hard when you combine it with mindless nationalism, btw.
 

chasingneverland

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Wakaba will need consistency and a 3A.The judges do not like her in Japan at all. Kihira and Sakamoto(who the Japanese judges LOVE) are almost locks. Matsuike is very well liked(by me also), Kawabe is very dangerous with a possible 3A, and Mihara is the sympathetic choice. Wakaba definitely had her work cutout for her. Being objective is doubly hard when you combine it with mindless nationalism, btw.
I mean Wakaba isn't overly loved by judges outside of Japan either.

The only skaters Japanese judges love are Rika and Kaori (and there Kaori more than Rika). I actually like all of them. I agree that baring a meltdown it's Rika, Kaori, and Rino. But I would argue that they ALL have their work cut out for them. Rika and Kaori's spots are probably more secure but if anything has been taught by World's it's that there's more work to do. I DO think a full season will help them though.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
First off, you make some good points. Yes, the judges had been overscoring Osmond as compared to Wakaba all year. That is true. That doesn't make it correct, but it was predictable. And yes, it did surprise me the way Kaori was scored in PCS this World's, because she also had been overscored in PCS for the last few years IMO. And yes, Wakaba has been underscored her whole career, and body type prejudice is part of it, oddly more so in her own country. However, you made some errors in your argument. First off, Wakaba lost 3.30 pts on the fall compared to her clean score on it in the LP, not 4. Step level is not an error, its a judges opinion on the elements in the movement. I never said Wakaba should have been leading. I was making the point that to me, Wakaba was a little lowballed in the SP and Osmond was overscored in comparison since she was sloppy on 2 of her 3 jump elements. Therefore, to me, they should have been significantly closer after the SP. And since Wakaba was superior in the LP, to me, I thought it was enough for Wakaba to win the gold there. I was not saying this was a shocking robbery. I was simply saying that after watching it on replay after a few years, I had forgotten how sloppy Osmond was, and that Wakaba deserved the win there. I said the judging was a joke, not for having Osmond win, but for having a 12 pt gap.

Okay because before you made it sound like Higuchi was robbed of the World gold and that was point blank just wrong given the numbers, even if you're a diehard fan of hers.

IMO, Osmond wasn't sloppy on 2 of 3 jump elements, yeah the lutz was wild but it was still 'clean' and there were preceding transitions and amplitude which made up for the edge issue and scratchy landing. It wasn't "sloppy" like her 2A, which definitely was sloppy. Neither jump issues really disrupted the overall program either. Also, it is important to note that Osmond did a successful 3-3 combination while Higuchi failed hers, which clearly would have differing impressions on a judge.

A scratchy flutz and a stepout/hand down is about on par with a very disruptive fall and a lip (in terms of points-lost, of course, the latter is more severe). Osmond also had better spins and footwork, and her overall presentation was better. If people touted Skyfall as one of the best LPs that year (which it was), there were also many people touting Osmond's Edith Piaf program as one of the best SPs - and certainly it was better in terms of presentation/choreo/expression than Higuchi's SP which was to... I can't remember... Don Quixote I think?

Osmond was also known to sell a program regardless if she goes clean or falls 3 times, so even if she has sloppy errors the overall impression was still great for the judges and audience. That's why she was still in the hunt for a medal, let alone be able to pull off the win.
 

Osmond4gold

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Joe, by suggesting that KO did not deserve her wins/medals, in a word disrespectful. When a skater goes out to do their best despite their circumstances, and becomes a multiple World & Olympic medalist, obtains a no. 1 world ranking, and is a World Champion, are feats few skaters in the sport will ever achieve. Yet, you continuously dismiss her rightful place in history. This for me in addition to your posts, are disrespectful. Please get over your hurt feelings, and beyond yourself.
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Okay because before you made it sound like Higuchi was robbed of the World gold and that was point blank just wrong given the numbers, even if you're a diehard fan of hers.

IMO, Osmond wasn't sloppy on 2 of 3 jump elements, yeah the lutz was wild but it was still 'clean' and there were preceding transitions and amplitude which made up for the edge issue and scratchy landing. It wasn't "sloppy" like her 2A, which definitely was sloppy. Neither jump issues really disrupted the overall program either. Also, it is important to note that Osmond did a successful 3-3 combination while Higuchi failed hers, which clearly would have differing impressions on a judge.

A scratchy flutz and a stepout/hand down is about on par with a very disruptive fall and a lip (in terms of points-lost, of course, the latter is more severe). Osmond also had better spins and footwork, and her overall presentation was better. If people touted Skyfall as one of the best LPs that year (which it was), there were also many people touting Osmond's Edith Piaf program as one of the best SPs - and certainly it was better in terms of presentation/choreo/expression than Higuchi's SP which was to... I can't remember... Don Quixote I think?

Osmond was also known to sell a program regardless if she goes clean or falls 3 times, so even if she has sloppy errors the overall impression was still great for the judges and audience. That's why she was still in the hunt for a medal, let alone be able to pull off the win.
My basic position is that both made mistakes in the SP and Wakaba should have been a few pts closer than she was. She was clean in the LP, while Osmond made some errors and Higuchi should have scored enough to pass Osmond. I don't think that is outrageous. Neither is it outrageous if you think that Osmond did enough in the LP to hold on to her 7 pt lead. The people that I strongly disagree with are the ones that think that Osmond deserved to be well ahead in both programs and the 12 pt final margin was fair. I just don't see that, especially after rewatching. Why people think this is a crazy statement is beyond me.
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Joe, by suggesting that KO did not deserve her wins/medals, in a word disrespectful. When a skater goes out to do their best despite their circumstances, and becomes a multiple World & Olympic medalist, obtains a no. 1 world ranking, and is a World Champion, are feats few skaters in the sport will ever achieve. Yet, you continuously dismiss her rightful place in history. This for me in addition to your posts, are disrespectful. Please get over your hurt feelings, and beyond yourself.
Honesty in ones opinion of a professional athletes performance and ability is not disrespectful. Saying she was very good when on is not disrespectful in any way. She was fun to watch, but not great in my opinion. Im sure Osmond couldn't care less about my opinion anyway. Im sorry if that hurts your national pride or feelings of self worth. But everyone is entitled to their opinions, even you.
 

lurkerghost1

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
A scratchy flutz and a stepout/hand down is about on par with a very disruptive fall and a lip (in terms of points-lost, of course, the latter is more severe). Osmond also had better spins and footwork, and her overall presentation was better. If people touted Skyfall as one of the best LPs that year (which it was), there were also many people touting Osmond's Edith Piaf program as one of the best SPs - and certainly it was better in terms of presentation/choreo/expression than Higuchi's SP which was to... I can't remember... Don Quixote I think?

Osmond was also known to sell a program regardless if she goes clean or falls 3 times, so even if she has sloppy errors the overall impression was still great for the judges and audience. That's why she was still in the hunt for a medal, let alone be able to pull off the win.
Really? Osmond deserved to win for sure but why do you act like Higuchi's program was forgettable. It was the best Don Quixote of the year (certainly better than Alina's) and was a very original program, no one in ladies has done classical but still powerful like that program since Mao 2014 Rach 2. I mean Trusova tried last year with Peer Gynt No. 1 but she just cannot sell like Mao or Waka do.
 
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