2020-21 Japanese Ladies' Figure Skating

Mathman

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But you said Osmond was "never considered the best in the world" when objectively she WAS the best in the world.
Strangely, I think that this view is quite acceptable with respect to logic. It's that "considered" that is the fly in the ointment.

"Conidered" implies "considered by somebody, or by many." It is possible for someone to win a world championshhip and still not be "considered" to be the best, even though in objective fact she has a medal around her neck. The medal is a fact, "the best" is a judgement.

(MK is not the best because she has 5 world championships; she's just the best -- or so I consider. ;) )
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
My basic position is that both made mistakes in the SP and Wakaba should have been a few pts closer than she was. She was clean in the LP, while Osmond made some errors and Higuchi should have scored enough to pass Osmond. I don't think that is outrageous. Neither is it outrageous if you think that Osmond did enough in the LP to hold on to her 7 pt lead. The people that I strongly disagree with are the ones that think that Osmond deserved to be well ahead in both programs and the 12 pt final margin was fair. I just don't see that, especially after rewatching. Why people think this is a crazy statement is beyond me.

While Osmond made some minor errors she made up for those by the fact that the elements she did execute were superior to Higuchi’s. The system rewards grade of execution and it is an important consideration when determining who should win. A skater who goes clean can (and in this case did) score less technically than a skater who made minor errors. There are a dozen elements and of skater A messed up 1 or 2 but executes the remaining 10 demonstrably better than skater B who does all the elements clean but not highest levels or best GOE, then those skaters can be on par. And it’s not like Osmond’s errors were so severe/egregious that they detracted from performance like how Higuchi’s fall was a major obvious error and especially costly being on the combo. Higuchi’s jumps were solid but not spectacular in terms of amplitude or flow.

I get that you think the score should have been closer (everyone will invariably say their favourite skater was underscored and the one/ones who beat them were overscored), but the gap was far too wide to justify any different result.
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Why do you state your opinions on technical abilities and GOE scores as fact? Both are just as much opinion as PCS and pretty much all aspects of skating. To me Osmond's jumps are exciting, but sloppy and not controlled well. Wakaba is fast and explosive but more under control to me. She has quicker feet on her steps and has a presence on the ice that Osmond does not. These are my opinions, not facts. Just as just about everything you stated was only opinion.The fact that you think there is a huge gap between Osmond and Higuchi is more a statement on your own integrity than anything to do with skating. IMO
 
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Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Really? Osmond deserved to win for sure but why do you act like Higuchi's program was forgettable. It was the best Don Quixote of the year (certainly better than Alina's) and was a very original program, no one in ladies has done classical but still powerful like that program since Mao 2014 Rach 2. I mean Trusova tried last year with Peer Gynt No. 1 but she just cannot sell like Mao or Waka do.
Be careful. You didn't say Osmond was clearly the greatest skater of all time. And you werent singing the Canadian national anthem and saluting their flag. You could soon be attacked.
 

Osmond4gold

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Be careful. You didn't say Osmond was clearly the greatest skater of all time. And you werent singing the Canadian national anthem and saluting their flag. You could soon be attacked.
When you have run out of arguments and all else fails but you refuse to retreat, blame nationalism and see if that sticks. :rolleyes:
 

silveruskate

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Wakaba is a good skater. The 2018 FS I really couldn't get into with the Dani G music cuts. How could you put slow Adele straight after that high-tempo Yuna music? And the first piece was high-tempo too.
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
When you have run out of arguments and all else fails but you refuse to retreat, blame nationalism and see if that sticks. :rolleyes:
Im sorry, I just assumed you were Canadian because of the picture on your nameplate. If you are just an Osmond fan that isn't a Canadian nationalist, then I still disagree with your skating opinions, but respect you a little more at least.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Be careful. You didn't say Osmond was clearly the greatest skater of all time. And you werent singing the Canadian national anthem and saluting their flag. You could soon be attacked.
LOL, I hope you don't think I attacked you. I said myself that Osmond isn't one of my faves. I also would like to think I don't play the nationalism card. Obviously I want Canada to do well, but that doesn't mean I blindly extol everything that a Canadian skater/team does. Yes, we all have inherent bias, but I try to be critical equally. I certainly don't think Osmond is the best of all time but she IS a World champion. Periodt.
 

lurkerghost1

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
While Osmond made some minor errors she made up for those by the fact that the elements she did execute were superior to Higuchi’s. The system rewards grade of execution and it is an important consideration when determining who should win. A skater who goes clean can (and in this case did) score less technically than a skater who made minor errors. There are a dozen elements and of skater A messed up 1 or 2 but executes the remaining 10 demonstrably better than skater B who does all the elements clean but not highest levels or best GOE, then those skaters can be on par. And it’s not like Osmond’s errors were so severe/egregious that they detracted from performance like how Higuchi’s fall was a major obvious error and especially costly being on the combo. Higuchi’s jumps were solid but not spectacular in terms of amplitude or flow.

I get that you think the score should have been closer (everyone will invariably say their favourite skater was underscored and the one/ones who beat them were overscored), but the gap was far too wide to justify any different result.
You do know that Wakaba had the biggest lutz in the business that year besides Tsurskaya as measured by frame rate. Wakaba’s 2A and 3S were also exceptional that year, I would only give Osmond the advantage on 3F, 3Lo, and 3T. Now Osmond definitely had superior flow but I think they both had amazing amplitude that would fulfill that GOE bullet for sure.
 

DougDorsey

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Does anyone know who designed Satoko's "Tosca" dress? (And is the designer on Instagram, by chance?)
 

Dawn825

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Idk who should have won 2018 worlds, both Katelyn and Wakaba's FSs looked miles better than this years top 2 so... This convo does make me think about the purpose of a short program though. Why can't it just be a single competition, best if the night wins? Not at all saying this was the case in 2018, but its very frustrating to watch someone win the FS and feel that emotion for them, but then be told that they lost because of math and some stuff that happened a few days ago that you dont even remember.
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
You do know that Wakaba had the biggest lutz in the business that year besides Tsurskaya as measured by frame rate. Wakaba’s 2A and 3S were also exceptional that year, I would only give Osmond the advantage on 3F, 3Lo, and 3T. Now Osmond definitely had superior flow but I think they both had amazing amplitude that would fulfill that GOE bullet for sure.
And excepional speed as well.
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
A quick point to make about GOE. I notice it is common for people to think that skaters should get extra GOE for jumping the farthest or highest, or skating the fastest. That is NOT how it works. You only have to satisfy each bullet point to get credit for it. For instance, if Kaori covers 3.5 meters on her 2A and Wakaba covers 3.1. meters, they both get equal credit for satisfying that bullet point. You dont get extra GOE for jumping the farthest or highest. You only need to jump far and high to get that bullet point, no extra credit given. Some people seem to misunderstand this. Just a pet peeve of mine. Lol
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
I was wondering if anybody else thinks that Mao Asada doesn't quite get enough credit for her career, especially compared to Yuna Kim? While Kim had a more consistent record for it's entirety, Mao wasnt too far behind overall, and was considered by most to be slightly better than Kim for the first half of her career, more or less. Mao didnt maintain her consistency during her later career, but at her peak, I feel she was at least the equal of Kim, if not slightly better, being that she had a 3A.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
Russia
A quick point to make about GOE. I notice it is common for people to think that skaters should get extra GOE for jumping the farthest or highest, or skating the fastest. That is NOT how it works. You only have to satisfy each bullet point to get credit for it.

Incorrect, the bullet points are guidelines, and vague ones at that. Hopefully the rules will be better after next season though.
 

dhjh811

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
I was wondering if anybody else thinks that Mao Asada doesn't quite get enough credit for her career, especially compared to Yuna Kim? While Kim had a more consistent record for it's entirety, Mao wasnt too far behind overall, and was considered by most to be slightly better than Kim for the first half of her career, more or less. Mao didnt maintain her consistency during her later career, but at her peak, I feel she was at least the equal of Kim, if not slightly better, being that she had a 3A.
I feel that their careers overall have too much of a gap for them to be considered to be on the same level. I'm not saying that Mao had a mediocre career by any means. In fact, she had a great career with 3 world golds and 1 Olympic silver. However, that can't exactly be compared to 1 Olympic gold, 1 Olympic silver, and 2 world titles considering Yuna skipped some seasons. Mao had crazy high technical content but the rules during that time would punish HARSHLY for any underrotations. Back then, underrotating a jump meant that it would be downgraded to the base value of the same jump with one less rotation, so Mao and other skaters who struggled with rotations would frequently get disappointed by their scores. I don't remember if it was mandatory for underrotated jumps to get negative GOE because figure skating rules change so often, but it was customary for underrotated jumps to be punished harshly in GOE also. Judges handed out edge calls more freely (and in my opinion, this is the correct way to do things :scratch2:), so that was a huge factor too. These flaws in her jumps really held Mao back, so even before Yuna became dominant, it was generally understood that she WOULD win if she just skated clean (around late 2007- 2008ish?). Best example of this is the 2007 GPF where Yuna won over Mao, I suggest you watch the competition to get a clearer idea of how things stood then if you haven't already. Thing is, she didn't perform her best for two worlds in a row, which delayed the timing of her dominance. So I would not exactly say that Mao was considered to be slightly better than Yuna past their first senior seasons.
 
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Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
I feel that their careers overall have too much of a gap for them to be considered to be on the same level. I'm not saying that Mao had a mediocre career by any means. In fact, she had a great career with 3 world golds and 1 Olympic silver. However, that can't exactly be compared to 1 Olympic gold, 1 Olympic silver, and 2 world titles considering Yuna skipped some seasons. Mao had crazy high technical content but the rules during that time would punish HARSHLY for any underrotations. Back then, underrotating a jump meant that it would be downgraded to the base value of the same jump with one less rotation, so Mao and other skaters who struggled with rotations would frequently get disappointed by their scores. I don't remember if it was mandatory for underrotated jumps to get negative GOE because figure skating rules change so often, but it was customary for underrotated jumps to be punished harshly in GOE also. Judges handed out edge calls more freely (and in my opinion, this is the correct way to do things :scratch2:), so that was a huge factor too. These flaws in her jumps really held Mao back, so even before Yuna became dominant, it was generally understood that she WOULD win if she just skated clean (around late 2007- 2008ish?). Best example of this is the 2007 GPF where Yuna won over Mao, I suggest you watch the competition to get a clearer idea of how things stood then if you haven't already. Thing is, she didn't perform her best for two worlds in a row, which delayed the timing of her dominance. So I would not exactly say that Mao was considered to be slightly better than Yuna past their first senior seasons.
1 Olympic gold, 1 Olympic silver, and 2 World titles IS comparable to 3 World titles and 1 Olympic silver. Not necessarily equal, but comparable. Mao was considered better early because she performed better at Worlds, as you alluded too. Skaters are usually most judged by their performance at the biggest event. That all changed later, as I said, Yuna had the better overall career. Im also sure you remember that the rule changes seemed to hurt Asada and help Kim. Im not saying that was good or bad but it did factor into things. Both are great skaters and Kim clearly had the better overall career. Im just saying at their peaks they were pretty close and I preferred Asada. But I also liked Kim too.
 
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dhjh811

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
1 Olympic gold, 1 Olympic silver, and 2 World titles IS comparable to 3 World titles and 1 Olympic silver. Not necessarily equal, but comparable. Mao was considered better early because she performed better at Worlds, as you alluded too. Skaters are usually most judged by their performance at the biggest event. That all changed later, as I said, Yuna had the better overall career. Im also sure you remember that the rule changes seemed to hurt Asada and help Kim. Im not saying that was good or bad but it did factor into things. Both are great skaters and Kim clearly had the better overall career. Im just saying at their peaks they were pretty close and I preferred Asada. But I also liked Kim too.
ok, I wouldn't think they're at all comparable but I guess it's based on perspective 🤔
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
It seems that Kaori has improved her lutz to much more of a flat edge rather than a clear inside edge she had at Worlds. That raises a technical question I had on rule interpretation in general. Should a flat edge be considered wrong or unclear in the lutz? My opinion is that unclear would mean it is between flat and slight outside edge and you can't tell. Therefore, flat should be wrong edge. Is that correct? I used Kaori as an example, but this is a general question. I know judges do whatever they want, but was curious on the definition, if any, in the rules.
 
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