2020-21 US Women's Figure Skating

[Koatterce]

Noom is still a weight loss program. Any kind of weight loss program, no matter how good it is for the average person, can be very problematic for someone who is on the path towards, currently has, or is recovering from an eating disorder. If someone is (or is prone to being) overly conscious about their weight/food intake, these programs can put even more focus on that and even make an ED worse/cause relapse. And in a lot of cases, ED's aren't caused by anything food related to begin with. If someone has an ED, they should be seeing professional help (psychologists, dieticians, etc.), and figuring out treatment plans from there.
Additionally, these are professional figure skaters. I doubt any of them need a weight loss program. Professional athletes also generally have specialized dietary and health requirements, which often differ significantly from each other and the average person, and they should seek the advice of a professional dietician/nutritionist.

 

[TallyT]

Noom is still a weight loss program. Any kind of weight loss program, no matter how good it is for the average person, can be very problematic for someone who is on the path towards, currently has, or is recovering from an eating disorder. If someone is (or is prone to being) overly conscious about their weight/food intake, these programs can put even more focus on that and even make an ED worse/cause relapse. And in a lot of cases, ED's aren't caused by anything food related to begin with. If someone has an ED, they should be seeing professional help (psychologists, dieticians, etc.), and figuring out treatment plans from there.

I don't like the idea of any sport, especially one where body image is important, being sponsored by weight loss companies (and of course Noom says they aren't a fad diet one, they all say they aren't!), and I shudder at the viscerally ironic image someone put up of Gracie kneeling before a symbol of everything that nearly destroyed her. I do, however, also see the point that the US Fed may not be in a position to knock back sponsors, and given that, as I understand it, tobacco companies are still allowed to pump money into other sports... it's a tough one.

Additionally, these are professional figure skaters. I doubt any of them need a weight loss program. Professional athletes also generally have specialized dietary and health requirements, which often differ significantly from each other and the average person, and they should seek the advice of a professional dietician/nutritionist.

Sports stars themselves - well, the lucky ones - make money sponsoring all sorts of products they never use, and I'd wager their fans do know it.

 

[moonvine]

I don't like the idea of any sport, especially one where body image is important, being sponsored by weight loss companies (and of course Noom says they aren't a fad diet one, they all say they aren't!), and I shudder at the viscerally ironic image someone put up of Gracie kneeling before a symbol of everything that nearly destroyed her. I do, however, also see the point that the US Fed may not be in a position to knock back sponsors, and given that, as I understand it, tobacco companies are still allowed to pump money into other sports... it's a tough one.



Sports stars themselves - well, the lucky ones - make money sponsoring all sorts of products they never use, and I'd wager their fans do know it.

I love Gracies sponsors. Bras and makeup. I bought a slew of makeup from Julep and told them I bought it due to their sponsorship.

 

[Gabby30]

People are so sensitive these days. You don't get automatically an eating disorder just because someone tells you to lose weight or call you "fat". I'm overweight my whole life, doctors tell kids all the time they have to lose weight, you make 100 diets, sport in school is a nightmare, kids bully you and call you names... but i still never had an eating disorder.
But what i see these days is god forbid you even mention someone's look or even mention that someone gained weight... If you don't get confronted with your flaws and the bad stuff since young age, how will you develope a stable mentality to deal with all the problems in your life when you grow up? You're raising a generation of snowflakes

 

[TallyT]

People are so sensitive these days. You don't get automatically an eating disorder just because someone tells you to lose weight or call you "fat". I'm overweight my whole life, doctors tell kids all the time they have to lose weight, you make 100 diets, sport in school is a nightmare, kids bully you and call you names... but i still never had an eating disorder.
But what i see these days is god forbid you even mention someone's look or even mention that someone gained weight... If you don't get confronted with your flaws and the bad stuff since young age, how will you develope a stable mentality to deal with all the problems in your life when you grow up? You're raising a generation of snowflakes

Your lofty superiority is noted, but irrelevant.

 

[ladyjane]

People are so sensitive these days. You don't get automatically an eating disorder just because someone tells you to lose weight or call you "fat". I'm overweight my whole life, doctors tell kids all the time they have to lose weight, you make 100 diets, sport in school is a nightmare, kids bully you and call you names... but i still never had an eating disorder.
But what i see these days is god forbid you even mention someone's look or even mention that someone gained weight... If you don't get confronted with your flaws and the bad stuff since young age, how will you develope a stable mentality to deal with all the problems in your life when you grow up? You're raising a generation of snowflakes

Whoa! Maybe you don't automatically get an eating disorder because someone tells you to lose weight or calls you fat, but when you're at a certain age when you feel insecure, you're in a sport where body image is important and there's all these other inputs from outside telling you there's something wrong with you because you're not as skinny as Twiggy, I wouldn't call anyone a snowflake for getting an ED. Furthermore, there are a lot more things happening, mentally for one, that are at work in developing an ED than 'just' the one person telling you to lose weight. It's people like you who make it difficult to speak out about mental problems, including ED's.

Of course one can mention that someone's gained weight, especially in those cases where that's actually a good thing because someone was really underweight (in medical terms) before or has just grown. But what usually happens, is that it's said in such a disparaging way that regardless whether it's true, a positive thing or not, it can break someone down who is already suffering with insecurity. That's not confronting someone with a flaw, that's harmful.

 

[lariko]

The US has an obesity issue. Figure skating does not and is rife with eating disorders

I am more concerned about people who watch figure skating, because the level of BF% required to figure skate is far below what a not genetically predisposed person could achieve with rigorous dieting and workout regimen, even if they dedicate their life to it.

I feel that using athletes to advertise a dieting system, no matter if they slap a lifestyle label on it, is just wrong. Average bodies are average. Figure skaters are one of a million selection. People don't even understand that most before and after photos stories are commissioned to pros who put on weight specifically for the after photos to cut back to their previous shape. If anyone thinks they could go from overweight to the shape of any of the figure skaters, they are in for a disappointment. To start with, those are preciously rare women who gain significant muscular mass in caloric deficit necessary to have that Body Fat percentage. I dunno how many times I had to have the same conversation with my mother about the lower body of the female skaters being muscular mass.... sorry, as someone who did some radical fitness on average body and paid a hefty price for it, it bothers me.

I love female skaters, I admire them, they are gorgeous, they are incredible in their athletic and genetic makeup, but they are not a valid or appropriate advertisement for fitness and lifestyle changes.

 

[R.D.]

Fun fact: Bradie [Tennell] has won the last four US nationals short programs.

...but yet has only won the US title twice. Interesting. Oddly enough my recollection of her is that she was a reliable freeskater.

After catching the Nationals free on TV (I gave some thoughts in the FS thread) I wonder what is ultimately next for Gracie Gold. Like I said in the other thread, I think she’s closer to having her jumps back than a year ago - once she gets the 3-3 down and consistent, I think her chances will rise dramatically. Her biggest issue has always been FS consistency. From what I saw in the ladies FS, her best - and perhaps only - shot at 2022 may be if a 3rd Olympic spot becomes available (from what I’ve read, seems like the US women have only 2 spots at the moment). If there continue to be 2 spots, I don’t like her chances even if she’s back to her old self again. Why? I think the sport has moved forward. Tough to get back on a treadmill moving at full speed.

She did not look too thrilled after the FS. Despite what I said above, I don’t think she should get discouraged. The pieces are there, she just needs to put them together now.

 

[Amei]

...but yet has only won the US title twice. Interesting. Oddly enough my recollection of her is that she was a reliable freeskater.

After catching the Nationals free on TV (I gave some thoughts in the FS thread) I wonder what is ultimately next for Gracie Gold. Like I said in the other thread, I think she’s closer to having her jumps back than a year ago - once she gets the 3-3 down and consistent, I think her chances will rise dramatically. Her biggest issue has always been FS consistency. From what I saw in the ladies FS, her best - and perhaps only - shot at 2022 may be if a 3rd Olympic spot becomes available (from what I’ve read, seems like the US women have only 2 spots at the moment). If there continue to be 2 spots, I don’t like her chances even if she’s back to her old self again. Why? I think the sport has moved forward. Tough to get back on a treadmill moving at full speed.

She did not look too thrilled after the FS. Despite what I said above, I don’t think she should get discouraged. The pieces are there, she just needs to put them together now.

Likely the only way Gracie Gold gets on the Olympic team even if there are 3 spots next year is with a win at nationals or if the Fed completely ignores their own "body of work" argument. Because I think without a win at Nationals she would pretty much need all of the skates who placed in the top 5 this year at Nationals to massively under-perform at next year's Nationals for Gold's BOW to not eliminate her.

...but yet has only won the US title twice. Interesting. Oddly enough my recollection of her is that she was a reliable freeskater.

Depends on what you call "reliable", below are her competitions last year where she placed in the FS segments, she was consistently around the 5th place range at her international competitions, I didn't got checking protocols to see how clean she was but only for placement you can see on the results pages (which I included links to) who was ahead of her.
Warsaw Cup, her FS segment she placed fifth - Competition Page
Skate America, she did place second (though I remember there was some conversation about missed calls) - competition page
Skate Canada, she placed fifth in the FS - Competition page
Four Continents, she placed third in the FS - Competition page
Grand Prix Final, she placed fifth in the FS - Competition page
Nationals, she placed third in the FS - Competition page

I think it's worth saying that these events don't include Worlds where you get the top strongest skaters from multiple countries, 4cc you don't have the Europeans there and GPF is limited to 6 participants total. If you go look at her Worlds results she was typically better in the FS vs. the SP but she wasn't an overall top 5 finisher, more like 6-10 place range - 2018 Worlds she finished 6th overall (7th SP, 4th FS), 2018 Olympics finished 9th overall (11 SP, 9 FS), and 2019 Worlds finished 7th overall (10th SP, 7th FS).

 

[kirauza343]

Likely the only way Gracie Gold gets on the Olympic team even if there are 3 spots next year is with a win at nationals or if the Fed completely ignores their own "body of work" argument. Because I think without a win at Nationals she would pretty much all of the skates who placed in the top 5 this year at Nationals to massively under-perform at next year's Nationals for Gold's BOW to not eliminate her.



Depends on what you call "reliable", below are her competitions last year where she placed in the FS segments, she was consistently around the 5th place range at her international competitions, I didn't got checking protocols to see how clean she was but only for placement you can see on the results pages (which I included links to) who was ahead of her.
Warsaw Cup, her FS segment she placed fifth - Competition Page
Skate America, she did place second (though I remember there was some conversation about missed calls) - competition page
Skate Canada, she placed fifth in the FS - Competition page
Four Continents, she placed third in the FS - Competition page
Grand Prix Final, she placed fifth in the FS - Competition page
Nationals, she placed third in the FS - Competition page

I think it's worth saying that these events don't include Worlds where you get the top strongest skaters from multiple countries, 4cc you don't have the Europeans there and GPF is limited to 6 participants total. If you go look at her Worlds results she was typically better in the FS vs. the SP but she wasn't an overall top 5 finisher, more like 6-10 place range - 2018 Worlds she finished 6th overall (7th SP, 4th FS), 2018 Olympics finished 9th overall (11 SP, 9 FS), and 2019 Worlds finished 7th overall (10th SP, 7th FS).

I do think it’s important to get context for some of her lower finishes

Warsaw Cup: she had a freak fall before going into her first jump which likely threw her off for the rest of the program and meant she only did 6 jumping passes. It’s also a big outlier for her score wise as she was consistently right around 140 at all of her other completions besides 4CC, where she scored higher

Skate Canada: this was an incredibly tough field and 3/4 ladies that beat her in the free were attempting triple axels and quads and the other was a clean Evgenia, someone who is scored very highly when clean

Grand Prix Final: 5th is absolutely amazing considering she was expected to place 6th and ladies above her were either undefeated internationally all season (Alena) or only lost to each other (Anna, Sasha, and Rika)

 

[R.D.]

Likely the only way Gracie Gold gets on the Olympic team even if there are 3 spots next year is with a win at nationals or if the Fed completely ignores their own "body of work" argument. Because I think without a win at Nationals she would pretty much all of the skates who placed in the top 5 this year at Nationals to massively under-perform at next year's Nationals for Gold's BOW to not eliminate her.

Ah yes, the good old "body of work". That is a good point that I didn't consider initially - even if she were to get into 3rd (or 2nd) with a great skate, if she just inches ahead of someone with more recent international experience - it could potentially be Wagner/Nagasu 2014 all over again.

Unfortunately for Gold, given that her recent experiences are mostly (all?) on the national level, this could work against her when the USFS Committee sits down. But realistically speaking, I don't think this particular situation will be occurring anyway.

Depends on what you call "reliable", below are her competitions last year where she placed in the FS segments, she was consistently around the 5th place range at her international competitions, I didn't got checking protocols to see how clean she was but only for placement you can see on the results pages (which I included links to) who was ahead of her.
Warsaw Cup, her FS segment she placed fifth - Competition Page
Skate America, she did place second (though I remember there was some conversation about missed calls) - competition page
Skate Canada, she placed fifth in the FS - Competition page
Four Continents, she placed third in the FS - Competition page
Grand Prix Final, she placed fifth in the FS - Competition page
Nationals, she placed third in the FS - Competition page

I think it's worth saying that these events don't include Worlds where you get the top strongest skaters from multiple countries, 4cc you don't have the Europeans there and GPF is limited to 6 participants total. If you go look at her Worlds results she was typically better in the FS vs. the SP but she wasn't an overall top 5 finisher, more like 6-10 place range - 2018 Worlds she finished 6th overall (7th SP, 4th FS), 2018 Olympics finished 9th overall (11 SP, 9 FS), and 2019 Worlds finished 7th overall (10th SP, 7th FS).

Hmm. Thanks for the summary. I'm sure the numbers aren't telling the whole story but in every single one of those linked events Tennell's SP placement is higher. Shows how out of the loop I am on this stuff these days...

 

[Amei]

Grand Prix Final: 5th is absolutely amazing considering she was expected to place 6th and ladies above her were either undefeated internationally all season (Alena) or only lost to each other (Anna, Sasha, and Rika)

I don't know the best way to express my thoughts on Tennell and the GPF but I don't know that its really a shining moment that she was expected to finish dead last at that competition and the only reason she finished second to last was that the person that finished last had an exceptionally bad FS.

Ah yes, the good old "body of work". That is a good point that I didn't consider initially - even if she were to get into 3rd (or 2nd) with a great skate, if she just inches ahead of someone with more recent international experience - it could potentially be Wagner/Nagasu 2014 all over again.

Unfortunately for Gold, given that her recent experiences are mostly (all?) on the national level, this could work against her when the USFS Committee sits down. But realistically speaking, I don't think this particular situation will be occurring anyway.

The only international competition that Gracie has since the 2016-2017 season was the disaster GP Rostelecom Cup 2018. I don't even know if she's eligible for any type of GP events, except perhaps the 'host pick' but honestly do we envision her being invited where she might be able to show that she's much improved from how she's performed the last couple of seasons to show that Nationals 2022 is a consistent performance to be expected from her (if she did place in the top 3) .

But I agree with you I think it's a bit of pipe dream that she will finish well enough at Nationals next year to have the situation of do you send her or do you not send her come up. I have no problem being proven wrong though.

Hmm. Thanks for the summary. I'm sure the numbers aren't telling the whole story but in every single one of those linked events Tennell's SP placement is higher. Shows how out of the loop I am on this stuff these days...

Well Tennell is generally reliable in what you are going to get from her, she doesn't have a history of meltdown skates. As kirauza343 analyzed, outside of Warsaw Cup last year she finished below some of the best skaters competing. My analysis of what you get out of Tennell: in GP events/4ccs where you don't have all the top talent at the event she's a top 5 finisher and maybe even the podium, but at an event like Worlds or the Olympics where all the top talent will be present based on everything we've seen right now, she's most likely to be in the lower end of the top 10.

 

[R.D.]

The only international competition that Gracie has since the 2016-2017 season was the disaster GP Rostelecom Cup 2018. I don't even know if she's eligible for any type of GP events, except perhaps the 'host pick' but honestly do we envision her being invited where she might be able to show that she's much improved from how she's performed the last couple of seasons to show that Nationals 2022 is a consistent performance to be expected from her (if she did place in the top 3) .

But I agree with you I think it's a bit of pipe dream that she will finish well enough at Nationals next year to have the situation of do you send her or do you not send her come up. I have no problem being proven wrong though.

If Gold indeed went to Russia in 2018 and laid an egg there, she will want to hope for, perhaps, an SA invite this fall. But as you allude to, there exists a legitimate case to not give her that opportunity. I don't know, I can't speak to that in-depth from the "casual fan" POV...I think full GP assignments are (or at least were) limited to the top 5 or so finishers at the US Nationals.

To summarize: I don't know the motivations behind her comeback, that's a personal thing. But, no matter what happens, I hope that Gold is preparing herself for what comes next after skating, and realizes that if she doesn't make 2022, take solace instead in knowing that at least you tried.

Well Tennell is generally reliable in what you are going to get from her, she doesn't have a history of meltdown skates. As kirauza343 analyzed, outside of Warsaw Cup last year she finished below some of the best skaters competing. My analysis of what you get out of Tennell: in GP events/4ccs where you don't have all the top talent at the event she's a top 5 finisher and maybe even the podium, but at an event like Worlds or the Olympics where all the top talent will be present based on everything we've seen right now, she's most likely to be in the lower end of the top 10.

Sounds to me like Tennell has effectively taken the place of Ashley Wagner as the steady (if not spectacular) hand keeping US skating 'somewhat' afloat. Although I don't know if Tennell will have the kind of staying power that Wagner had. Probably more comparable to someone like Rachael Flatt, who preceded Wagner in this role in the late 2000s.

 

[kirauza343]

I don't know the best way to express my thoughts on Tennell and the GPF but I don't know that its really a shining moment that she was expected to finish dead last at that competition and the only reason she finished second to last was that the person that finished last had an exceptionally bad FS.



The only international competition that Gracie has since the 2016-2017 season was the disaster GP Rostelecom Cup 2018. I don't even know if she's eligible for any type of GP events, except perhaps the 'host pick' but honestly do we envision her being invited where she might be able to show that she's much improved from how she's performed the last couple of seasons to show that Nationals 2022 is a consistent performance to be expected from her (if she did place in the top 3) .

But I agree with you I think it's a bit of pipe dream that she will finish well enough at Nationals next year to have the situation of do you send her or do you not send her come up. I have no problem being proven wrong though.



Well Tennell is generally reliable in what you are going to get from her, she doesn't have a history of meltdown skates. As kirauza343 analyzed, outside of Warsaw Cup last year she finished below some of the best skaters competing. My analysis of what you get out of Tennell: in GP events/4ccs where you don't have all the top talent at the event she's a top 5 finisher and maybe even the podium, but at an event like Worlds or the Olympics where all the top talent will be present based on everything we've seen right now, she's most likely to be in the lower end of the top 10.

Consider what she was up against though. Alina was the reigning Olympic Gold Medalist and was coming into this event with a silver and a bronze on the Grand Prix compared to Bradie’s silver and 4th and had a spectacular short program. The other four were the four best skaters in the world and the skater with the LOWEST technical content was still doing three triple axels. That’s a huge gap that no skaters besides them can match, and I’d argue they were the only four skaters Bradie stood no chance against. At Worlds last year had it happened 5th was a real possibility because she was capable of beating everyone else (Young You would’ve been her biggest competition there but Bradie is capable of beating her).

I’d argue she’s more of a mid top 10 skater than a lower top 10 one.

 

[b-man]

Ah yes, the good old "body of work". That is a good point that I didn't consider initially - even if she were to get into 3rd (or 2nd) with a great skate, if she just inches ahead of someone with more recent international experience - it could potentially be Wagner/Nagasu 2014 all over again.

Unfortunately for Gold, given that her recent experiences are mostly (all?) on the national level, this could work against her when the USFS Committee sits down. But realistically speaking, I don't think this particular situation will be occurring anyway.



Hmm. Thanks for the summary. I'm sure the numbers aren't telling the whole story but in every single one of those linked events Tennell's SP placement is higher. Shows how out of the loop I am on this stuff these days...

R.D., haven't seen you here in a long time. Welcome back.

 

[R.D.]

R.D., haven't seen you here in a long time. Welcome back.

Thanks, yes it's been some time New look and all. Only temporary though I'm afraid, I've relegated myself to "casual observer" status (like I was prior to 2002) and pretty much have only watched parts of US Nationals since the last Olys at this point...overall, interest in sports just not what it used to be for me. However, I did want to get my 2 cents in on Gold's return and see what others were saying about it.

 

[halulupu]

Liu did actually very well considering all her troubles this year. Pleasantly surprised. More speed, better edges, top notch make up, improved jumps.

Hope Gracie speaks out against this noom sponsorship. This is really bizzare.

 

[moonvine]

If Gold indeed went to Russia in 2018 and laid an egg there, she will want to hope for, perhaps, an SA invite this fall. But as you allude to, there exists a legitimate case to not give her that opportunity. I don't know, I can't speak to that in-depth from the "casual fan" POV...I think full GP assignments are (or at least were) limited to the top 5 or so finishers at the US Nationals.

To summarize: I don't know the motivations behind her comeback, that's a personal thing. But, no matter what happens, I hope that Gold is preparing herself for what comes next after skating, and realizes that if she doesn't make 2022, take solace instead in knowing that at least you tried.




Sounds to me like Tennell has effectively taken the place of Ashley Wagner as the steady (if not spectacular) hand keeping US skating 'somewhat' afloat. Although I don't know if Tennell will have the kind of staying power that Wagner had. Probably more comparable to someone like Rachael Flatt, who preceded Wagner in this role in the late 2000s.

The SA host pick is often based on summer comp results to my understanding. Gracie can still have a career if she doesn’t make the Olympics this time. Olympics could still be postponed giving everyone an extra year. And Gracie came in 4th in Sochi and of course bronze in the teal event. Is that really “laying an egg?” If so I wish I could lay such eggs.

 

[readernick]

Consider what she was up against though. Alina was the reigning Olympic Gold Medalist and was coming into this event with a silver and a bronze on the Grand Prix compared to Bradie’s silver and 4th and had a spectacular short program. The other four were the four best skaters in the world and the skater with the LOWEST technical content was still doing three triple axels. That’s a huge gap that no skaters besides them can match, and I’d argue they were the only four skaters Bradie stood no chance against. At Worlds last year had it happened 5th was a real possibility because she was capable of beating everyone else (Young You would’ve been her biggest competition there but Bradie is capable of beating her).

I’d argue she’s more of a mid top 10 skater than a lower top 10 one.

Yes. The argument from the above poster is a bit strange. Based on her results last year, it is clear Tennell is more competitive than the above poster suggests. Who will beat Tennell if she is clean? Definitively, the top two Russian girls and Rika ( if they don't fall apart). After that, Tennell is capable of competing with Sakamoto, Young You, and the third Russian. So, realistically, if she is clean in both segments she can place between 4-6 at World's. The reason why the US is unlikely to get 3 spots even with a clean Tennell is that Karen may find it difficult to stay in the top 10. This would have been the case with any of the second American skaters sent. Had Mariah maintained her form from last year she could have had a chance of placing between 5-9 place. As it is, all the Russian skaters, all the Japanese skaters, the two Korean skaters and possibly Leona Hendrickx and/ or Paganini will place above Karen. So, she will likely be between 9-11 place. So a combined total of 13 to 15. You need less than 13 to get 3 spots. 3 spots isn't happening unless a lot of skaters from other countries don't skate up to their potential, and both Tennell and Karen do.

 

[b-man]

...but yet has only won the US title twice. Interesting. Oddly enough my recollection of her is that she was a reliable freeskater.

After catching the Nationals free on TV (I gave some thoughts in the FS thread) I wonder what is ultimately next for Gracie Gold. Like I said in the other thread, I think she’s closer to having her jumps back than a year ago - once she gets the 3-3 down and consistent, I think her chances will rise dramatically. Her biggest issue has always been FS consistency. From what I saw in the ladies FS, her best - and perhaps only - shot at 2022 may be if a 3rd Olympic spot becomes available (from what I’ve read, seems like the US women have only 2 spots at the moment). If there continue to be 2 spots, I don’t like her chances even if she’s back to her old self again. Why? I think the sport has moved forward. Tough to get back on a treadmill moving at full speed.

She did not look too thrilled after the FS. Despite what I said above, I don’t think she should get discouraged. The pieces are there, she just needs to put them together now.

Unfortunately, I think Gold is done, that her comeback will fall short (have thought that for two years). Instead of pops, now she has falls. Didn't break 100 in FS last year or this. She is also on the verge of not qualyfying for Nationals. Its not only the jumps, From 2013-16, her skating skills were world class. Now her speed is diminished and she looses tons of PCS points to Tennell, Karen, Alysa, etc. This is the 3rd year of the announced comeback, and she hasn't cracked top 10 at Nationals. But if she continues, I will still watch her.

You might try finding a new up and coming skater to follow which might reinvigorate your interest. That's what I've done after my fave got team bronze in 2018 and unofficially retired.