2021 Finlandia Trophy: Women's Free Skate

[icybear]

Because it is a women's event and she does not look like a woman. And I don't believe in forcing young girls to do loads of quads just to rack up points. For me, something characterful and artistic is missing from the performance.

And I suppose woman footballers should not be allowed to play women football because they dont look like the typical woman. They have short hair, flat chested, and no curves. They ought to wear heavy make up and kick the ball with high heels right.

 

[Skatesocs]

Paulipau's point about it taking extra courage for a woman to present yourself as Tuk does, is a good one, especially in this context where it is not common at all. It might have worked with this panel and with the next one maybe not so good.

In a conservative sport like FS, maybe, but she takes away what she gives. I'm just belabouring my point (so now for the final time, because I've said it enough now, lol) - I have no problem with overt sexuality, and more power to her if that's all she'd done. But she should not be doing it through offensive stereotypes. Praising that will be like saying "oh, wow, that guy is a racist homophobe! Well, good for him for being himself " We can easily make the argument that it's actually not brave and just simple strategy, given you and I know what kind of judges and coaches there are in FS - the sport where such stereotypes have been rewarded, and also a sport where people like Zhulin (and some of the posters here!) have said they like "mature bodies" (which... don't want to think about the judging being done based off that).

Glad we agree on her flaws. And about the harmful stereotypes in the sport.

 

[eppen]

Started thinking about the music selections in the competition in general and most of it was neutral, no problems at least in my opinion. Different parts of the east were amazingly strongly present in women - Madame Butterfly and Miss Saigon, House of the Flying Daggers for Far East and Tuk's and Loena's takes on Middle Eastern whatever. These are usually based on very stereotypical movement vocabulary and costuming, often also happily mixing different cultures (China and Japan together, India popping into the Middle East etc.)

I would also include Kailani's Gangsta's Paradise as iffy because of how it was presented with a wide grin and a happy face. Micha Steffen did the same piece for his SP but it was more actual hiphop and I did not get weird Blaze of Glory vibes from him. The guys were pretty good - Sinnerman for Jason Brown could be a case, but he gets away with it as it is a thoughtful homage to Alvin Ailey's original choreography. Schindler's List could be argued for, but there was nothing weird about the two programs with it.

Nothing struck me as suspicious in pairs and ice dance - Smart/Diaz doing Zorro and representing colonialist Spain in the Americas? Then also The Mission music? Someone did Gabriel's Oboe, but forget who it was.

This is not necessarily the best thread to discuss this, but the topic got raised, so better here than nowhere? What do you think?

E

 

[Skatesocs]

Started thinking about the music selections in the competition in general and most of it was neutral, no problems at least in my opinion. Different parts of the east were amazingly strongly present in women - Madame Butterfly and Miss Saigon, House of the Flying Daggers for Far East and Tuk's and Loena's takes on Middle Eastern whatever. These are usually based on very stereotypical movement vocabulary and costuming, often also happily mixing different cultures (China and Japan together, India popping into the Middle East etc.)

Speaking in general, yes, the women tend to go after these culturally inappropriate warhorses like Madame Butterfly and Memoirs of a Geisha - I guess because the centre of these plays/operas tend to be women. I can't recall (off the top of my head) whether such a piece is used by male skaters. There's of course rather critical history behind why this happens, but the amount of pre-existing art has inspired these many programs to them.

Memoirs of a Geisha is disliked in Japan, and the music is basically western with some faux "Asian" feel to it. Madame Butterfly - about a Japanese woman, yet for some reason a Canadian decided it's good to use in China. There's another Canadian (and Sofia Samodurova) who are both using the Mulan OST, when the film is disliked in the Mainland. The choices barely reflect any research. I get why actual Japanese and Chinese skaters tend to use them, though, because these western warhorses just tend to work for the judges, where the actual Asian music might not.

I'm not even going to bother with the middle eastern music again, lol. But there was a junior who wore "middle eastern clothing" and skated to "Jai Ho!".

I would also include Kailani's Gangsta's Paradise as iffy because of how it was presented with a wide grin and a happy face.

I expect most skaters to have never listened to hip hop.

The guys were pretty good - Sinnerman for Jason Brown could be a case, but he gets away with it as it is a thoughtful homage to Alvin Ailey's original choreography.

I see it as a homage to Ailey from his choreographer, but the skating for me still hasn't worked from him (and don't think it's amazing choreo, even if it does tend to show some quintessential Ailey positions/modern dance technique).

Schindler's List could be argued for, but there was nothing weird about the two programs with it.

Nothing wrong with the programs (I didn't like either of them, but nothing *wrong* with them... unless being generic is wrong?) - the conversation about whether Schindler's List should be allowed during the Olympics for a judged sport is different.

Nothing struck me as suspicious in pairs and ice dance - Smart/Diaz doing Zorro and representing colonialist Spain in the Americas? Then also The Mission music? Someone did Gabriel's Oboe, but forget who it was.

To me, if there's tasteful enough choreography - nothing ugly and blatantly disrespectful that one might expect with those themes - then I'm willing to watch, but again, there's perhaps a conversation to be had about whether such themes should be judged and scored.

 

[chasingneverland]

Because it is a women's event and she does not look like a woman. And I don't believe in forcing young girls to do loads of quads just to rack up points. For me, something characterful and artistic is missing from the performance.

What does a woman look like exactly?

Also remember that Liza used to be the young protege with crazy technical content.

 

[Skater Boy]

I was listening to TSL review of Finlandia ladies. They pointed out the Russians look beatable for the olympics namely the Japanese ladies could beat them. But for all the doom and gloom the Russian ladies keep on bringing it. Think about it if Kostornaia is washed up and Liza doesn't have much of a chance to make the Russian team and Kamila's growth is a huge issue - they still aren't doing too bad I just wish the Eteri girls even if they can't do all teh transitions would explore and present great presentation, style. Costumes might help I find her fs outfit off putting. LIke wearing pant with a skirt - does not help the artistry. Even if it is just looking pretty ie Nancy Kerrigan and Vera wang and not even focus on the theme - nice dresses help.

 

[FelineFairy]

Stereotypical, and therefore an offensive parody.

I am a bit surprised at this choice of words applied to music and choreography choices for figure skating. If we apply cultural awareness, respect, stereotypes etc. etc. to that, what would you say of classical ballet? Every theme, every scene is an example of the same stereotyping. No classical choreographer researched the real culture and history to change something in La Bayadere or Le Corsaire. But art lovers enjoy the music and choreography, applaud the skills of ballerinas, and the performances gather crowds all over the world. What is so different from figure skating here? Would a figure skater performing the Chinese dance from Nutcracker with movements close to the ballet be offensive? And the Russian dance? I would be unpleasantly surprised if somebody told me that choosing that for FS is inappropriate and offensive. Especially as I much prefer classical ballet to modern dance and love balletic postures and lines in FS.
I am questioning your approach here, not your assessment of Liza's performance quality. It is definitely not ballet, although I loved her emotions and energy. In a way her team's ideas about Oriental dance are not far from Petipa's ideas about China, ridiculous from the point of view of anthropology. But who said anthropology should be a criterion here? Every Hollywood movie would be blatantly offensive, then.
Choosing such style is obviously not a way to creating something deep and innovative. But an athlete usually has other objectives. And tastes differ. Liza's FS is not my cup of tea, but I can also see the attractive side in it.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

My opinion might be a minority, but to me Liza's programme simply feels fun and kitschy (in a good way, like Eurovision or RuPaul's). I don't get 'sexy' vibes Then again, anything more subtle than Toxic usually passes over my head...

As for cultural appropriation, it's a nuanced issue and the reference to Petipa's ballets is pertinent. How discerning dance companies deal with this nowadays is to either emphasise the setting as an escapist fantastical world rather than an attempt to earnestly portray a culture (the Royal Ballet's approach when it revived La Bayadere), or to reimagine the ballet in some contemporary setting (like English National Ballet's Crimean War version of Raymonda). Either approach works as long as it avoids making an actual culture/people look silly or bad.

Liza's programmes seem to be more of a homage to contemporary phenomena than tradition - this year's LP makes me think of nightclubs, last year's of anime conventions. That's fine by me, I don't think she ever claimed to be representing any specific national culture.

 

[florin]

Why are you upset? She performed it, unlike most of the other, mostly stone-faced skaters. And points are the name of game, not delight or wonder. She did two triple axels, on in combination. She was 15 points above the 3rd place finisher. She was a deserving silver medalist.

I wrote about the program, not about place. Of course she deserved second place, there can be no doubt about it.

 

[florin]

My problem isn't necessarily the cliche arm movements and choreography. It's that these body movements are reduced to the stereotype of exaggerated sexuality that they often are in popular (western) culture. So it's more that Tuktamysheva's team seems to have thought "Tukt is sexy and an adult! Let's make her do Egyptian arms and body rolls to emphasise that!". There have been better "Middle Eastern" themed programs that avoided that, while still keeping the stereotypical moves, like Kwan's Salome, and Grishuk/Platov's Feeling Begins. Kwan's Feeling Begins didn't even have such stereotypical moves These are all "sexual" programs too that didn't fall into that cliche (Kwan's Salome means there was Dance of the Seven Veils in it, and I'm frankly happy they didn't make her do anything like that, she was 15!). I think you'll be able to get what I'm trying to write here, but I'm not sure I made it clear. Tukt = sexy so do egyptian arms. The rest = middle eastern theme/concept that happened to portray some sexuality even if it contained some egyptian arms.

And why not pick something like Shcheherazade and do that genuinely sexual dance instead? It's athletically more challenging, too. This is half baked, and barely takes any effort.

It was similar in that "Japanese" LP. Whatever stereotype exists, use it to portray her as "sexy". Actually, I'm even more offended that this barely had any choreography. How was she supposed to be sexy, labouring across the ice, barely doing anything else? Was it just the kanji for "love" she'd put on her costume, lol? Apparently, it was choreographed by someone from Mariinsky. Well, OK.

If you put the time to learn your material, then no problem. If Tuktamysheva had learned to actually belly dance, then fine. But she didn't. And if she had, she'd have known it's not supposed to be some sexy dance anyway.

You're right. It's not about sexuality, it's about kitsch.

 

[lariko]

Nice idea. Kamila skating to AC/DC in a unitard would be an improvement imo.

I am with it too, as long as she likes AC/DC. But I would take a badly cut music mix of Hallelujah, Roxane and R&J over Bolero. By the time she skates it in Olympics, I will be muting the music and just watching her jump/skate.

 

[viennaskater]

What does a woman look like exactly?

Also remember that Liza used to be the young protege with crazy technical content.

OK it's not so much about the appearance, I just get fed up with skaters who are just jumping machines ending up winning. And I am sure all those quad jumps take their toll because they need so much strength. I remember young Russian girls' careers ending prematurely because of injuries and burn-out. And I don't care if it's a quad or a triple I'm looking at.

 

[SkatersWaltz]

And the spiral..does anyone currently skating have one like that?

Just Jason B.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

Her mother must have another origin then.

Perhaps. Or perhaps her mother is also of Greek decent. But you do know that Mexicans are more than one race or ethnicity right? Not all Mexicans have a certain 'look', just as not all Latin Americans. We come in many shades, races and ethnicities, not just a certain 'look'. Perhaps Madeleine has Mediterranean origins, apart from Greek. In any event, what does it matter? She's a wonderful skater.

 

[yume]

Perhaps. Or perhaps her mother is also of Greek decent. But you do know that Mexicans are more than one race or ethnicity right? Not all Mexicans have a certain 'look', just as not all Latin Americans. We come in many shades, races and ethnicities, not just a certain 'look'. Perhaps Madeleine has Mediterranean origins, apart from Greek. In any event, what does it matter? She's a wonderful skater.

I know. I've seen many Mexican skaters and they don't look the same. It's just that imo she looks latin and Mexico is the first country i thought of. She maybe isn't even latin and i don't care. It was just an observation while i was watching her program. Origins doesn't matter. Forgive my curiosity.