2021 Finlandia Trophy: Women's Short Program | Page 36 | Golden Skate

2021 Finlandia Trophy: Women's Short Program

RatedPG

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Country
Canada
I’m really happy with the results of the SP. My two faves did as well as they can do at 4th and 5th place, after the SP.

Elizaveta - She is the only Senior Lady giving the Eteri army of six, a battle, in Russia. So, this makes her the sentimental favourite. Her programs this year really highlight her personality. I love her free skate and can’t wait to watch it tomorrow. Remember, she beat a 3A less Aliona at Rostecolm and Russian Cup Final. So, she should aim for a Silver medal, just to make things more interesting and spice up her profile. Her 3F, I thought would get bonus points. But, it wasn’t in the second half? Question: who comes up with her technical layout? Are they not able to clock and delay her third jump by a few seconds? She could have gotten 0.6 higher, with just a simple change. I can’t wait to see her 3Lz into 2A combo in the free skate. Way to leave points on the table. Mishin needs to take a course on how to maximize points. I don’t think he understands the rules. Also, Elizaveta’s PCS score is absurd. Anyone with eyes can see Leona and Karen are much faster and polished than her. I wish the ladies were like the men, where someone like Jason gets rewarded, with highest PCS scores, for artistry, despite the lack of technical content, Nowadays, for ladies, it is like a popularity contest and reputation gives you an advantage.

Aliona and Kamila - Good performance by Aliona; That is the best she can do without a 3A. I just wish she had better programs to highlight her strengths for me to start liking her again. Nothing will top her Angel program, which was a Masterpeice. But, this isn’t close. Kamila, what can I say. Her 3A mistake, it happens. But, this program is a worse version of Storm. It is like her SP programs are just getting worse and worse. She skates the elements in the same order as Storm. But, Storm meshed better with these elements. This one doesn’t. I just wish she had a program with more thought. She is so talented and that is what gets the points. But, the program is just a meh for me. Nothing will beat the Picasso masterpiece. Wish she went back to that program. Everyone in China would love it. She has the best combination of technical content and spins. But, she is a bit stoic out there and this really makes me lack cheering for her as much as I used to. She was my favourite the last two years. But, along with the dress, this is fading. I feel that she will skate really well in the free skate to Bolero. But, in my eyes, Bolero, is even worse than this program. Such a shame… all that talent and these are the programs I have to repeat over and over again. I only watch them once now. I used to watch her and Aliona’s older programs again and again on repeat. That is no longer the case.

Now for my highlights. Gubanova. I set my alarm clock and watched her nail a clean program. I smiled and then went back to bed knowing she would be in the top 6. She couldn’t skate any better. She got level 4 scores on all her elements, which the top two didn’t get. Shame about the point penalty and PCS score. But, I expect it to increase as people get more exposed to this talented Russian. Loena, same thing. Fours across the board. She was my favourite performance of the day. But, with the fall, I understand why she is in 5th place. She flies across the ice and she puts so much emotion into her skate. She should be the highest PCS scorer, in my opinion. I hope my two faves hold on to 4th and 5th. I don’t care about the order. I just want them to do well.

Karen Chen, in 6th place. I would have put the girl from Finland ahead of her. It looks like Karen may not need a triple triple to make it to the Olympics. Her protocols sheet is interesting, because I see carrots all over the place, always. She just has to focus on rotating triples. Jenni, to me, deserved higher PCS scores and it would have been amazing to see her in the final group in front of the hometown.

Eva and Victoria from Estonia and Belarus. They were underscored. Also, PCS scores are so low. I hope they redeem themselves in the free skate. Amber, that was brave. 3A, not as first jump. I thought that was a sign she was going to do a 2A instead. I’m glad she went for 3A. But, she really needs to focus on everything else, like the spins. Yikes….

Looking forward to free skates tmrw. Josefin is a dynamite and I can’t wait to watch her again tmrw.
 
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CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Oh I get it. You're trying to be funny:). Actually, I don't get it. I was just saying my opinion and that was kind of funny?
I just found it interesting that you clocked Chen and Saarinen for being overscored (I agree) but didn’t include the Russians, who IMO were quite overscored themselves.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Actually that's distinctly wrong. The major error - the fall - is taken into account with the capped PCS, deduction for the fall, and impact on GOE/BV. That's it.

It WAS a major error and her PCS being capped reflects that. A downgraded jump doesn't add to the error - it still remains one major error.

She continued skating and performing after it.

The PCS are marked on:
1. Skating Skills: edges, steps, turns; balance, knees and feet action and placement; flow and glide, varied se of power, peed and acceleration; multi-directional skating; and one foot skating
2. Transitions: continuity of movements, variety, difficulty, and quality
3. Performance: physical, emotional, intellectual involvement; projection; carriage; variety and contrast of movements and energy; and individuality or personality
4. Composition: purpose, ice coverage, use of space and design of movements, form and movments to match musical phrasising, originality of the composition
5. Interpretation: timing, expression of the music, and finesse and nuances of the music

There actually isn't anything in there about falls.

Falls are taken from the scores after that - hence the addition of a capped score. From the technical score with BV, GOE, and deductions and from the PCS with a capped PCS.

No. You could NOT give 9.25s for a skater with 8 falls. That wouldn't be considered a "diamond" or 9.00-9.75 skate. Most importantly because falling that much would mean that you're falling on things that are affecting your PCS. So you're falling while just skating so that would affect your skating skills and transitions. Falling that many times would affect your involvement and portrayal.

Furthermore, think of Satoko at World's. She had a catastrophic skate but outside of the jumps she remained committed to her performance and the fluidity of her skating and interpretation. Hence her high PCS.

Finally, you could argue all the top skaters (not just Russia's skaters) got inflated PCS. And that's why judging is not to be used between competitions. Because this is how this judging panel perceived them. So looking at Kamila's skates in light of the Olympics is flawed because that's a different panel of judging.

A major error isn’t taken into account with a capped PCS. Allowing a judge to give 9.75 when a skater has a fall is hardly preventing a judge from still awarding the PCS they were going to give a skater. It’s basically saying they can’t go higher than 9.75 for Kamila but if they were going to give her a 9.75 anyways then they could still throw that up there and still be viewed as following the rules. Moreover, judges have gone over the thresholds of capping (there are loads of examples where they go above the caps) but haven’t heard of any sanctioning.

Theoretically the judges could have awarded Valieva 9.75 for SS/TR/CO and 9.5s for PE/IN regardless of how good her program and performance were if they only fell once.

A women’s program with a fall can be awarded 38.6 PCS (97%) and still be “within the cap”. You don’t see a problem with that?

And yes you could give 9.25 for any program with serious errorS. https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/id-handbooks-faq/26043-program-component-chart/file

Since there is no distinguishing whether there is a difference between 2 falls or 8 falls, an 8-fall program can still fit the parameters of a “Diamond skate” and get 9.25 for SS/TR/CO and 8.75 PE/IN. A skater with 2+ (even 8) falls could get 36.2 PCS (91%) and that would be within the PCS cap parameters.
 

Jontor

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Country
Sweden
I just found it interesting that you clocked Chen and Saarinen for being overscored (I agree) but didn’t include the Russians, who IMO were quite overscored themselves.
No I didn't reflect on that because it is just semantics. The three Russians would be top three in any case anyway. Chen and Saarinen would have dropped though in the rankings.
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Rukavicin was with Gubanova.
No, the other Gerogian girl wasn't here.
If Gubanova didn't have that unfortunate -1 deduction for time violation, she would actually have scored a PB at international contests.

Yeah, it was great to see Gubanova again:)
Let's hope she can get comfortable again regain any confidence she lost in the last few years and actually fulfill her potential.

It's also good to know nastia is with her coach of 2 years. I wasn't sure if the change in competing for a different country would cause a problem with the coach.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
No I didn't reflect on that because it is just semantics. The three Russians would be top three in any case anyway. Chen and Saarinen would have dropped though in the rankings.

I feel like it might have been the same - Hendrickx was also def overscored having a glaring error on her combo and somehow getting a PCS personal best. It’s like the judges were told to give 0.5-1.0 higher on each component for most of the top skaters, regardless of how they skated. At least Tukt and Jenni were clean.
 

chasingneverland

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
A major error isn’t taken into account with a capped PCS. Allowing a judge to give 9.75 when a skater has a fall is hardly preventing a judge from still awarding the PCS they were going to give a skater. It’s basically saying they can’t go higher than 9.75 for Kamila but if they were going to give her a 9.75 anyways then they could still throw that up there and still be viewed as following the rules. Moreover, judges have gone over the thresholds of capping (there are loads of examples where they go above the caps) but haven’t heard of any sanctioning.

Theoretically the judges could have awarded Valieva 9.75 for SS/TR/CO and 9.5s for PE/IN regardless of how good her program and performance were if they only fell once.

A women’s program with a fall can be awarded 38.6 PCS (97%) and still be “within the cap”. You don’t see a problem with that?

And yes you could give 9.25 for any program with serious errorS. https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/id-handbooks-faq/26043-program-component-chart/file

Since there is no distinguishing whether there is a difference between 2 falls or 8 falls, an 8-fall program can still fit the parameters of a “Diamond skate” and get 9.25 for SS/TR/CO and 8.75 PE/IN. A skater with 2+ (even 8) falls could get 36.2 PCS (91%) and that would be within the PCS cap parameters.
If a women was absolutely perfect with the exception of the fall. Like Jason Brown level interpretation, etc. So, not Kamila although she's improving but basically the gold standard, then one single fall in which before and after the skater stays in time with the music, performance, etc. and receives a 38.6 would not be ridiculous. No. Also, that's not what happened here.

That's the page I was looking at thanks. I see the plural for errors thanks, but that applies to diamond skates. Otherwise, you're not reading the table correctly. The table is designed to be read horizontally.
 

anonymoose_au

Insert weird opinion here
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Australia
Well, I wish I could say I was surprised at the nastiness shown towards Liza in this thread, but honestly I'm not.

I wonder sometimes, if certain people here realise - shock! Horror! other people have different opinions and even more horrifying some people love Liza's skating and even worse enjoy her choreography.

The policing of likes and dislikes in this fandom is so toxic, it's like if you don't love this skater or that skater, you're a bad fan or even a bad person.

I don't like Kamila's programs, I don't like the way she skates. But God forbid I enjoy someone other than her, or Aliona, or Anna. If you don't think these skaters are the best EVER you can go to Hell.

Well, nuts to that, I love Liza's program, it was pure fire, it was brilliant. And if you don't want to see it or accept it, maybe go and tear her to shreds about it privately amongst your fellow fans (that's what PM are for, you can say whatever you like there, you can swear and curse all you like) rather than drag down this entire thread with your nasty comments.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
I'm super happy for Liza winning the SP (well deserved) but her PCS don't make sense either. She was brilliant but her choreo/interpretation/skating skills are not on par with Kostornaia. Kostornaia's PCS was high (program still needs work and she doesn't have her usual speed/flow) but not egregiously high PCS. Liza's should be 33-ish PCS and with the fall I'd have Valieva around 32-33 (if clean, probably around 34-35). I also thought Karen, Loena, Amber and Jenni were overscored too (esp. Karen who I'd have given around a mid 33).

At least Saarinen and Tuktamysheva went clean. So many PCS personal bests for subpar skates - Hendrickx had a major stepout on her combo and got a PCS personal best, Valieva had a downgraded fall and got 2.9 points higher PCS than her previous personal best, Chen doubled a triple and UR'ed a loop, and while she was still "clean" she still didn't perform to the level of previous SPs yet. Glenn fell and messed up a spin and essentially matched her previous PCS personal best (31.37 instead of 31.47) It's WAY too early in the season to give out PBs, and for SPs this sloppy.

I don't buy any of this apologist (well they skated better than before, PCS is separate from technical elements, etc. etc. etc.). Skaters who make errors need to have it reflected in their presentation scores. Or maybe I'm just one of those weird judges who for some strange reason believes that errors actually detract from the performance and presentation of a program, and should be accordingly reflected in the PCS scores. :rolleye:

In my opinion doubling a planned triple in a combo doesn’t detract from performance. Technically it is less difficult but for me anyway doesn’t detract from performance. The lack of a 3-3 is already reflected in TES.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
In my opinion doubling a planned triple in a combo doesn’t detract from performance. Technically it is less difficult but for me anyway doesn’t detract from performance. The lack of a 3-3 is already reflected in TES.

Fair but a program is more difficult and impressive if harder elements are attempted and executed. At the women’s senior level a 3-3 is an expectation ... the same was a 3A is in men’s. Sure a guy could do a 2A and that’s a “clean” skate but a judge would consider it subpar and diminishing the overall performance. There aren’t many Jason Browns who can get away with comparatively weak jump elements.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Fair but a program is more difficult and impressive if harder elements are attempted and executed. At the women’s senior level a 3-3 is an expectation ... the same was a 3A is in men’s. Sure a guy could do a 2A and that’s a “clean” skate but a judge would consider it subpar and diminishing the overall performance. There aren’t many Jason Browns who can get away with comparatively weak jump elements.
I think it very much depends on the program choreography and overall skating. I agree the tech elements can make it more impressive, but it really depends. Anyway, here it doesn't really matter all that much. Everyone was just kind of bad.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
If a women was absolutely perfect with the exception of the fall. Like Jason Brown level interpretation, etc. So, not Kamila although she's improving but basically the gold standard, then one single fall in which before and after the skater stays in time with the music, performance, etc. and receives a 38.6 would not be ridiculous. No. Also, that's not what happened here.

That's the page I was looking at thanks. I see the plural for errors thanks, but that applies to diamond skates. Otherwise, you're not reading the table correctly. The table is designed to be read horizontally.

Not sure how I’m reading it incorrectly. I’m seeing the 9.25 max scores for SS/TR/CO as corresponding to programs with serious errors. As in programs with more than one serious error can only get a max of 9.25 for those categories. Which also means a program with a dozen serious errors can only get a max of 9.25. Which also means a judge can award a program with a dozen serious errors 9.25 and still be in the guidelines. There is no indication of a PCS cap for 3 major errors or 4, etc. So my original statement is correct - a judge could give a program with 8 falls scores of 9.25 under SS/TR/CO.

The ISU also needs to better define serious errors (right now it’s about maintaining the integrity/fluidity/continuity which is so vague). An interesting thing some people claim is that a popped jump isn’t a major error so a skater with 1 fall and 1 pop is still eligible for 9.75s for SS/TR/CO. Which is ridiculous. If a pop or doubling an intended triple isn’t a major error then a skater with 7 popped jumping passes and no fallscould theoretically still be eligible for a 10.00 because they haven’t committed a serious error.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Not sure how I’m reading it incorrectly.
You aren't. If their method of reading is applied, then there is no cap for "serious errors" on "platinum skates".

This table describes skating like it were kindergarten. Might as well say "smiley face sticker" or "ice cream sticker" instead of "10".
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
Fair but a program is more difficult and impressive if harder elements are attempted and executed. At the women’s senior level a 3-3 is an expectation ... the same was a 3A is in men’s. Sure a guy could do a 2A and that’s a “clean” skate but a judge would consider it subpar and diminishing the overall performance. There aren’t many Jason Browns who can get away with comparatively weak jump elements.
Right but it still should be TES. Say someone does a 2A and it’s a textbook perfect 2A. That should still get +5 GOE but still be worth far less than even an average 3A.
 

Azikin

Medalist
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Well, I wish I could say I was surprised at the nastiness shown towards Liza in this thread, but honestly I'm not.
Maybe it's a bit her own fault. I lost all respect for her (and I believe many people, too) since I saw her behaving badly towards Kostornaia...
 

eppen

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Country
Spain
It has been an exhausting week, after about a year and a half of very little happening (for the obvious reason), now all of a sudden soooo many things in one week. But yesterday, I had managed to sleep for 8+ hours and was pretty awake for the ladies SP. I like the non-ranked draw in the early season, because the groups are great mixtures of familiar and unknown skaters. The weekend crowd was pretty good - not every seat taken, but pretty tight anyway (the corona restrictions were mostly removed only a week ago, so people are only getting used to going to these kinds of events again). I managed to find a seat behind the judges at just about the right height although the massive tech panel covered part of the left lower part of the ice. The judges had reserved seats in front of me, so for most of the time, there were quite a few of them there. I wish I could have read their thoughts!

Overall, I was pretty happy with the quality - there were few falls, the women were doing good despite the difficulties many of them probably had had in training and life in general because of the pandemic. In the first group, I was curious to see Madeline Schizas and the Finnish girls ofc, but then realized that Anastasia Gubanova was indeed the little girl I had loved back in 2016-7 when she won absolutely everything in her juniors (apart from the junior GPF). The last time I saw her was in Marseilles and she was about the height of a fire extinguisher... All grown up now, but still with some of the most beautiful arms in the business. Just the right amount of control and languidness. Happy to see her do well also technically. Madeline was ok, her skating seemed small, thought she lacked the usual Canadian deep edges and flow on the ice. Laura Karhunen did good literally in front of her home crowd (she represents Espoon Jäätaiturit, the local club) as a last minute replacement when Emmi Peltonen cancelled.

In the second group, Jenni Saarinen was just great. It was so good to see her get those jumps out confidently and clean, the overall effect was terrific. Though she had the loudest blades of the evening. Clair de lune is ofc very soft and quiet music, but I could hear her crossovers over the music from the opposite corner... I still wonder about this. Eva-Lotta Kiibus did really good also, happy for that. I love the Brazilian music (one of my fave musical genres ever) and I love the choreo Benoit has made her and I even love the dress. But she just can't get the whole lifted off the ground. She looks slow and mostly just executes the movement without much attention to the rhythm and overall possibilities for expression. I do hope she gets better with it with time...

In the third group, my eyes were firmly on Kamila Valieva. I saw her as a junior in 2020 Junior Worlds (a great two days in Tallinn just before the lockdown happened) and was very curious to see how she had developed in two years. The warm-up was truly impressive - she jumped everything multiple times. Well, except the 3A, which came out only once and that one was just perfect, such a pity she did not get it right in the actual performance. In the past she has had a tendency to race through her usually slowish music, but that was now better in control, she got the moves and the music to match quite good. The program is busy, but not overtly so. Her speed and flow over the ice is truly impressive (and silent blades!). I wish she would have a bit more variation in her facial expressions - she has a seemingly permanently worried look on her face which is beginning to irritate me. Then, aws surprised to hear Feist sing (Natasha McKay, the cut was also mercifully very gentle on the song), but Sea Lion Woman is really not a very good choice for a skating program because it is so fast that even the best of skaters would have problems with the rhythm and not ending up looking slow, sluggish, and unenergetic. Safonova was good though nothing remarkable about her.

The second to last group was the one I expected most: Alena Kostornaia and Josefin Taljegård. Alena's warm-up consisted of 6 minutes of skating around the rink, one triple which was not even from the program and one hop. It was truly weird. I have confessed my love for her in previous occasions, I was there in Espoo in 2019 to witness the first 3As, but did not get any last night. She is still amazing to watch. Valieva is great, but she does not have that smooth as butter feel that Alena creates and Valieva certainly does not have the ability for expression that Alena has. BUT the program is c**p. The music is great, you could do so many cool things with the final guitar solo, but there is NOTHING there. The possibilities that her skills and the music put together could afford are not used at all. She flirts with the judges in the opening sequence and in the steps at the end (it meanders very pointedly in the central part of the ice), and that's it. I felt angry and frustrated after that even though it was great to see her on ice again.

But luckily Josefin Taljegård was quite ready to save my evening. I have already realized that this season the top skaters have so far shown programs that do no excite me in any way, like total lameness, unoriginailty, and boredom. And so I have really gone for the few truly great programs and performers lower in the ranks and Josefin is one of my faves. I know what I like and Josefin ticks most of my boxes: she can do character, she can spell out a storyline, she can do different movement to different types of music, she can skate to a rhythm, she does this all with credibility and confidence. If only she had the jumps! This SP was for me love at first sight at Nebelhorn on camera, and it was just as good live (and shows that Nikolai Morozov still can do a good choreo). The start when she comes to her position already in character, settles down looking at herself judgingly in the mirror - Ready or Not?! The hiphop style steps are just amazing and her upper body and arm isolations don't make me wanna cringe (which happens usually with skaters who try to do that). She stayed at the K&C for a long time afterwards, disinfected her seat herself (!), and went straight to an interview at the door to the backstage area (Absolute Skating on IG I think).

I was somewhat overwhelmed by Alena and Josefin, so Amber Glenn went by a bit unnoticed and I was happy there was the break before the last group, so I could regroup myself... Because there were interesting skaters in that group: Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, Karen Chen, and Loena Hendrickx. Based on the Russian test skates, I liked Tuk's program and it was good also live. The choreo and music fit her, she is old enough to pull off that end of an affair theme. Her worst mannerisms (those arms make me shiver with disgust most times) are kept in check and particularly the second part is nicely expressive. She did two 3As easy as you like in the warmup and was happy to see at least one of the attempts in competition go down successfully. But find it hard to understand why she got higher mark for SS than Alena and Kamila, because she is visibly slower, has less flow, has to really work for speed etc. Karen Chen was ok - the music I like, but in my minds eye I always see Wakaba Higuchi skating to it, and Karen's choreo is perhaps not quite as good as what Shae-Lynn did for Wakaba. Loena finished the evening with a good performance even with the fall. The choice of music is very conservative and of the kind almost anyone could skate, I feel she could maybe also do something less banal, something more exciting and different.

I completely forgot about the synchro competition at the end of the evening and just left after the women. Wondered why hardly anyone left at the same time... Overall, I was again so happy to see world class skating and can't really wait for tonight!

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