2021 NHK Trophy: Men's Free Skate

[el henry]

You would have to specify what you mean by saying that Cha's programs were more "complicated". His jumps certainly weren't more complicated, and he also had issues with his rotations and edges in the free skate. Of course, Vincent had the same issues. Cha beat Vincent a little bit in PCS and Vincent scored a little more in TES...which, IMO, was fair and made sense. I think either placement for these two would have been fine. It was quite close, IMO.

Jumps, for me, are often the least complicated part of a program. Skating from jump to jump, no matter how many rotations the jump is, (which neither Vincent nor Jun do, to be clear) would be the simplest of all.

I think Vincent and Jun were close, I would have given Jun the edge (not skating edges, although maybe that too ), but I am not up in arms about it.

 

[4everchan]

well... i slept through this. Very happy Shoma won

 

[Lutzedge]

This score difference between 2nd and 6th place is crazy!

 

[lariko]

They have always been merciless with Vincent. We can only hope they'll gravitate to another sport!!!!

You wish! basically, even hinting how good Vincent is, is not welcome. It’s just terrible he gets spurned so much. Like, even with messed up free, his short is magical, and Cha himself won his medal on the short, not the free… so, it’s much a professional judgement call as the rest of the 2-6 placement in this particular competition. Plus, none of the men save for Uno and Rizzo were impacted in their chances for the final, even if Zhou would have received bronze.

 

[SaDa]

Jumps, for me, are often the least complicated part of a program.

You're entitled to your opinion. I disagree, and I don't think the judges and those who write up the rules for the sport see it that way either. At least we agree that Junhwa and Vincent were quite close and that their placements were nothing to be up in arms about

 

[moonvine]

I have Jaffas, are we familiar with Jaffas?

Jaffas - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I was not. So I learned something new today. Thank you.

 

[moonvine]

Something about him is beautiful and I enjoy watching him skate despite mishaps. All I can say.. detractors feel free to have at it.

I can’t enjoy it. I’m too afraid he will seriously injure himself.

 

[el henry]

I can’t enjoy it. I’m too afraid he will seriously injure himself.

You think Camden is going to injure himself? I've not seen that from him? Just lovely skating from someone who just lives inside his head, and I wish he wouldn't, he is so good when he's on.

 

[eterialskating]

Instead of making ladies receive equal PCS factoring like the men how about the men have their PCS factored lowered to 1x. Absolutely ridiculous how many times I see men skater's get away with bombing programs and still podium. Zhou is not even that good performance wise clean or not so why is he over 85 when he bomb and receive a score even a flawless lady skater will never reach. I doubt I would even give him 7's. Cha himself barely scratch 80 but he's clearly a step up from Zhou.

 

[el henry]

Instead of making ladies receive equal PCS factoring like the men how about the men have their PCS factored lowered to 1x. Absolutely ridiculous how many times I see men skater's get away with bombing programs and still podium. Zhou is not even that good performance wise clean or not so why is he over 85 when he bomb and receive a score even a flawless lady skater will never reach. I doubt I would even give him 7's. Cha himself barely scratch 80 but he's clearly a step up from Zhou.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. The men skate against each other. Shoma, Vincent and Jun were the top three men in this comp, and even if I would have the order slightly different, all three deserved to be on the podium. None of them "bombed" as I understand that term.

Comparing scores across disciplines or against competitions is not something I have ever done, as it would prove nothing to me: different panels, different results. So the men could have factors of plus 25 and the ladies could have factors of minus 75, it wouldn't make a difference. The best men would still be the best men, the best women would still be the best women, the best pairs would still be the best pairs and the best ice dancers the best ice dancers.

 

[eterialskating]

I'm not sure what the issue is here. The men skate against each other. Shoma, Vincent and Jun were the top three men in this comp, and even if I would have the order slightly different, all three deserved to be on the podium. None of them "bombed" as I understand that term.

Comparing scores across disciplines or against competitions is not something I have ever done, as it would prove nothing to me: different panels, different results. So the men could have factors of plus 25 and the ladies could have factors of minus 75, it wouldn't make a difference. The best men would still be the best men, the best women would still be the best women, the best pairs would still be the best pairs and the best ice dancers the best ice dancers.

I wasn't aware FS is scored on some hierarchy ranking. Frankly the only top skater here is Uno. At any case judges should never prop top skaters so they land on the podium. The second and third place skaters are only a few points above the guys who didn't medal. They got their places because of their much higher PCS and didn't receive penalties in their error filled skates. And FYI PCS factoring would lower Zhou and Cha's score enough for their spots too change so no I don't agree with your assertion that factoring is not relevant. About time the judges these anomalies, this is the reason why Chan won over Ten in 2013 Worlds, Hanyu over Machida a year later, Uno over Javi in Pyeongchang???....... and the reason why Jason Brown could still haunt the empty haunted mansion that is men's skating because he could receive PCS freebies despite having a tech even junior ladies have surpassed.

 

[el henry]

I wasn't aware FS is scored on some hierarchy ranking. Frankly the only top skater here is Uno. At any case judges should never prop top skaters so they land on the podium. The second and third place skaters are only a few points above the guys who didn't medal. They got their places because of their much higher PCS and didn't receive penalties in their error filled skates. And FYI PCS factoring would lower Zhou and Cha's score enough for their spots too change so no I don't agree with your assertion that factoring is not relevant. About time the judges these anomalies, this is the reason why Chan won over Ten in 2013 Worlds, Hanyu over Machida a year later, Uno over Javi in Pyeongchang???....... and the reason why Jason Brown could still haunt the empty haunted mansion that is men's skating because he could receive PCS freebies despite having a tech even junior ladies have surpassed.

Yes, figure skating is hierarchical. Ranking one, two, three. How else would we do it?

If you mean lowering PCS importance, it is already too low in my opinion, and revolutions in the air ranked too highly as opposed to the other tech of spins, choreo, step sequences. And I say that as someone who has been a sports fan in general, and a fan of this particular sport, for some time now. So no, that would be a non-starter for me. But if you are saying you think that PCS constitutes too much of a score, and that the PCS accounts for the podium here, I disagree, but I understand the point.

I still don't know why in the world should I care what junior ladies are doing when I am watching men? Their scores, their revolutions in the air, their spins, their choreo sequences, their skating skills and performance and interpretation have nothing to do with the men. They have to do with the other junior ladies.

 

[eterialskating]

Yes, figure skating is hierarchical. Ranking one, two, three. How else would we do it?

If you mean lowering PCS importance, it is already too low in my opinion, and revolutions in the air ranked too highly as opposed to the other tech of spins, choreo, step sequences. And I say that as someone who has been a sports fan in general, and a fan of this particular sport, for some time now. So no, that would be a non-starter for me. But if you are saying you think that PCS constitutes too much of a score, and that the PCS accounts for the podium here, I disagree, but I understand the point.

I still don't know why in the world should I care what junior ladies are doing when I am watching men? Their scores, their revolutions in the air, their spins, their choreo sequences, their skating skills and performance and interpretation have nothing to do with the men. They have to do with the other junior ladies.

Well first of all it's relevant because men underservedly receive higher PCS factoring than women despite the fact women's tech scores have already catched up to the men. The ridiculous PCS factoring was of course because men's tech scores were much higher than the corresponding ladies scores at any level. Now we see the top ladies could get tech score over most men save for Chen and Hanyu. Why should a low level skater like Jason Brown could continue receiving his 90's, the likes of Kamila and Anna could never receive and enjoy a blatant and unfair advantage over newer men's skaters. As I said before I don't want the ladies to receive the same PCS factor. I want both disciplines to get the same but lower PCS factoring. I wanna see less farcical scoring like today, like the robberies at Worlds, and propping amateurs like Jason Brown.

Oh and BTW if not the men who sets the standards in skating? There the ones who are receiving far more generous and far more lenient scoring so they should be held to the utmost standard. I do get why certain people with agenda would love to continue this robbery and bias.

 

[Jaana]

Congratulations to Uno, Zhou and Cha!!! Extremely happy for this podium!!! I really like Uno´s Bolero music including the choreography and his interpretation. This will be fantastic at the Olympics where he is supposed to peak. Great that Zhou made the GPF, his freeskate was not his best performance, but that is needed for the Olympics and not here. It was just wonderful, wonderful that Cha made the podium, I really love his beautiful looking skating! I guess he will never be able to make the triple axel withhout hesitation as he is such a tall guy.

 

[SaDa]

The second and third place skaters are only a few points above the guys who didn't medal. They got their places because of their much higher PCS and didn't receive penalties in their error filled skates. And FYI PCS factoring would lower Zhou and Cha's score enough for their spots too change so no I don't agree with your assertion that factoring is not relevant. About time the judges these anomalies, this is the reason why Chan won over Ten in 2013 Worlds, Hanyu over Machida a year later, Uno over Javi in Pyeongchang???

I guess I'm not really understanding this argument. I mean, if you think the scoring in other disciplines, like the women's, should be on the same scale as the men's then I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that. As others have already mentioned, the women aren't competing against the men though, so I personally don't see what huge difference this would make other than optics and that it might make it easier for anyone interested to compare how the women are doing relative to the men.

However, if you're arguing that changing the PCS scale would somehow make Zhou and Cha not get 2nd and 3rd, that wouldn't be true. You do realize that it wouldn't affect only their scores, right? It would also affect the scores of the rest of the other skaters as well. So, if Cha and Vincent get their PCS lowered then so would the others, thus, in the end, it wouldn't really change anything in terms of actual standings. Regardless of what the PCS scale is, they were still the two best skaters after Shoma Uno, according to the judges. Am I missing something here?

 

[Tinymavy15]

Shoma is skating like he belongs with the OGM contenders. The confidence is so so good to see, even if he does make a mistake or two. Don't love Bolero, but he sells it and agree with the others who said it is the best Bolero of the season. Stephane knows what he's doing.

 

[anonymoose_au]

However, if you're arguing that changing the PCS scale would somehow make Zhou and Cha not get 2nd and 3rd, that wouldn't be true.

Ah but there's the rub, commenters like this are basically trying to insinuate it's the scoring system, but what they really mean is they think Zhou and Cha are crap skaters who have no business on an ice rink let alone the podium.

They're just too gutless to put it that way because they know it's cruel and nasty and probably isn't true.

I take back my previous post, if you're going to be a jerkface, please do so without weasel words and twisted facts so we know how you really feel.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I guess I'm not really understanding this argument. I mean, if you think the scoring in other disciplines, like the women's, should be on the same scale as the men's then I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that. As others have already mentioned, the women aren't competing against the men though, so I personally don't see what huge difference this would make other than optics and that it might make it easier for anyone interested to compare how the women are doing relative to the men.

However, if you're arguing that changing the PCS scale would somehow make Zhou and Cha not get 2nd and 3rd, that wouldn't be true. You do realize that it wouldn't affect only their scores, right? It would also affect the scores of the rest of the other skaters as well. So, if Cha and Vincent get their PCS lowered then so would the others, thus, in the end, it wouldn't really change anything in terms of actual standings. Regardless of what the PCS scale is, they were still the two best skaters after Shoma Uno, according to the judges. Am I missing something here?

Actually, it would change the final rankings. If the factoring is the same as in ladies, we will get:
1. Uno 262.82
2. Zhou 234.92
3. Ignatov 234.62
4. Cha 233.64
5. Samarin 232.03
6. Rizzo 230.66
In this competition both Russian skaters would be one place higher, if the factoring is different. And Makar would medal with almost the same score as Vincent!

 

[lariko]

Personally, I would like the PCS to be factored lower for men, because I overall want PCS to have less impact on the placement. In my view, between multiplied PCS and GoE atm too much of the final mark depends on subjective and variable opinions. Unless metrics from Ice Scope are used to modify up or down the human-given mark for GoE, Skating Skill, Transitions and Composition, the overall impact of PCS and GoE is too much and the result is too easy to fix.

And, there shouldn’t be two marks for Performance and Music Interpretation, it is the same thing, not to mention it should not be confused with SS mark which is pretty much the case in men’s skating atm. He skates smoothly doesn’t authomatically mean that he has a soul of an artist, an incredible sensitivity to musical material and that he measures his strokes to music because he is living it. It just means that he skates smoothly and can fit his speed to musical pace.

 

[SaDa]

Actually, it would change the final rankings (if the factoring is the same as in ladies):

Can you elaborate on this since I don't really follow the ladies' scoring? I've always understood the scoring scale to be different but why would the placement actually change for these men skaters just because the women's scale is used? In other words, how did you come up with those numbers?