2021 U.S. Int'l Classic: Women's Short Program | Page 7 | Golden Skate

2021 U.S. Int'l Classic: Women's Short Program

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Also, doesn‘t help matters that figure skating fans watch for different reasons. There is clearly an art vs sport camp. If you are watching for art, then you do not mind no hopers being involved.
I don't think it's necessarily "art vs sport" - but that's the issue. If someone is falling multiple times, can't do basic crossovers properly, popping all the jumps... where is the art? Art is rooted in technique. Art and sport do battle, but that's only when you get to the very high levels and we question if we want to see more quads or more artistry. But all of them can jump, spin, skate across the ice with speed... for them it's very much a choice which part they want to develop further.
The ISU needs a restructure. The speed skating needs to separate from the figure skating. 2 different things. Speed skating guys know speed skating. Get a figure skating head in there.

👍
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Regarding the "small federation/less talented skater" debate:

Part of the mission of the ISU is global expansion and influence, and sometimes that starts just with fostering participation.

I'm glad we're seeing more Turks, more South Americans, more Indians. No, I don't expect any of these skaters to be competitive at the highest levels, but it's a start. They are pioneers, and they deserve some respect. It only takes ONE to change the skating culture in their countriees... I refer you to Yuna Kim. All these South Korean skaters didn't just sprout from the ground suddenly, someone had to inspire them.
If all feds could also invest more it would help those skaters.
South Korean skating culture didn't change just because Yuna won titles and was the first to do so. Otherwise there would be many babies Lu Chen and babies Javier Fernandez. Korean fed invested by sending its skaters train abroad, hiring foreign choreographers, etc. A true system of talents developpement exist. That isn't the case for everyone unfortunately.
 

chasingneverland

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
First off, I’m trying to weed out the no hopers. A 25 year old podiatrist doing this with daddy’s money or switching counties to have a giggle is in no way a success or inspiring story. And they are not working hard, they just have resources to travel the world. No different than 30 year old tennis players ranked 700 think they will still make it to the top.

ISU events should have minimum entry requirements. So you can’t just walk off the street and compete. ISU events should have some sort of prestige.

You do what other sports do. Have a qualifying events where you have the opportunity to earn entry to ISU events. That way everyone gathers in one place and we can judge them against each other.

And if that you are always scoring 15, well maybe this isn’t the sport for you.

Set up lower tier amateur tour where there is a ceiling. So Trusova won’t be allowed in. Tennis does this. Novak Djokovic can’t play these events.

For sure, do something to help the juniors. The focus should be there. They are young and those with potential but not resoureses should be helped. The juniors should be the main focus. You can get a few gems from there for sure.

The it takes one is a nice slogan but not true in practice. It takes a milllion failures to get to one.

Skating is crazy expensive so that alone will make it hard to begin with. Then you also need to have athleticism and a certain body type to be competitive which slices the pie up more.

No matter what you do, it’s always going to be a niche sport and certain countries (because of geography, lack of interest, lack of cash) will never be players in the game. So focus on those that can be.

And it’s obvious that I don’t care about having as many countries as possible, I care about having as many good skaters as possible. Rather have 5 good skaters from country A than 5 mediocre skates from 5 different countries.

People are hung up on having as many countries as possible represented rather than as many good skaters as possible. This is a competition, not the UN. Not everyone deserves a seat at the table in the first place. And a lot of these skaters are taking advantage of lax rules to go to another country to make it easier for them to compete which makes it a bigger farce.

For me, I never understood the appeal of someone getting enty just because they are from a certain country. A skier finishing 30 seconds behind the leader because they are skiing the course carefully isn’t appeling or inspiring.

A 30 year old skater from a non traditional country that is getting funding by their parents and can’t do any of the elements, while putting themselves in harm’s way getting beaten by 200 points is not inspiring or praise worthy in my opinion. I don‘t care if it’s an unpopular view, I won‘t lie and say what I don‘t believe in order to please someome.

And I certainly don’t see the need to have to pretend that all skaters are equal. The ones that don’t belong should get smoked on the scoreboard. And that scoreboard disparity should have a light shone on it to force a raising of standards.
This isn't an ISU GP or even Challenger event. It's an other international event.

It IS supposed to be a "low tier ranked competition". Trusova wouldn't have gone in a normal year - she went because of visa questions, the pandemic, and for the chance to practice her 5 quad program before it actually mattered.

Also most ISU events DO have minimum requirements. This one doesn't because it IS a low tier competition. These smaller events CAN be considered qualifying events as it's at the smaller events that they DO earn their tech minimums.

Skaters DON'T get entry into whatever competition they like because they're from a non traditional country. They get the opportunity to compete in events LIKE THIS ONE.

No one is pretending all skaters are equal. All skaters don't make it to nationals. All skaters don't make it to international events. All skaters don't make it to the free skate. All skaters don't make it to the Olympics.

THIS is an event where all skaters ARE allowed to compete. And no one is equating Sasha's performance with theirs. No one is pretending too. No one is pretending that Sasha isn't going to be much higher than them. (Although, Sasha is much higher than MOST skaters.)

And you are failing to notice that skaters like Tara HAVE improved. When we first saw Tara she couldn't land a 3S or 2A (I believe she scored in the 20s in the SP in her first senior competition). She was at Cranberry Cup and landed both her 2A and 3F. (She's now scoring in the 40s in the SP.) So no - not always scoring in the 15s. Perhaps even the motivation of competing in competitions is resulting in some of this improvement (during a pandemic no less).
 
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treblemakerem

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Ok. So then have maximum standards in these events so Trusova can’t enter as well.

Like in tennis where you can’t play challengers if you are a top ranked player.

Also, I’m certainly not saying throw crap at the skaters.

And fine, let anyone skate. But they should be cut from FS if they don’t score a certain amount. I would put it between 45 and 50.
They have minimums at worlds because there is time constraints. No reason for that here. If you don’t want to watch the first few skaters feel free to skip them. No one is forcing you. Personally I saw Tara at Cranberry Cup and liked her skating so I was glad to see her name on the list and looking forward to her skate. I was also excited to see Sasha. I don’t think there’s a problem with having a wide range competing here.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
It IS supposed to be a "low tier ranked competition". Trusova wouldn't have gone in a normal year - she went because of visa questions, the pandemic, and for the chance to practice her 5 quad program before it actually mattered.
I think this point falls more in alexofcp's favour...
 

chasingneverland

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
I think this point falls more in alexofcp's favour...
How so?

No one is pretending this is a competition for Sasha. He's arguing for a lower tier circuit. Well guess what? This IS it. (It's just open to all.)

Also when I said it actually mattered, I mean for her (Sasha). It's going back to success means different things for different people. Sasha has a long season ahead with high, lofty goals and expectations. This wouldn't be considered success for her. But you know, if she's able to land her 5 quad program tomorrow - that would be considered a successful competition for her. For others, success here is simply skating both their SP and FS in a competitive environment.
 
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chasingneverland

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
They have minimums at worlds because there is time constraints. No reason for that here. If you don’t want to watch the first few skaters feel free to skip them. No one is forcing you. Personally I saw Tara at Cranberry Cup and liked her skating so I was glad to see her name on the list and looking forward to her skate. I was also excited to see Sasha. I don’t think there’s a problem with having a wide range competing here.
I was also glad to see both names.

I think people are forgetting people were surprised to see Sasha's name on the entry list. But that doesn't negate the value. It's GOOD for Sasha to get practice in front of international judges. It's also GOOD for lower tier skaters to gain experience and exposure.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
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I was also glad to see both names.

I think people are forgetting people were surprised to see Sasha's name on the entry list. But that doesn't negate the value. It's GOOD for Sasha to get practice in front of international judges. It's also GOOD for lower tier skaters to gain experience and exposure.
I think the surprise was more because of the timing than the level of the competition.

I think that there are usually high profiles at this comp. I remember in the last olympic season, Marin and Kaori competed there (Marin won) with Mirai or Karen. I'm suprised that it isn't a challenger.
 
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Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
I think that here are usually high profiles at this comp. I remember in the last olympic season, Marin and Kaori competed there (Marin won) with Mirai or Karen. I'm suprised that it isn't a challenger.
It's a Challenger, or was at least. I think it was disenfranchised as one, maybe due to lack of participation, this season. It's not an "ISU Other Competition" like Coupe du Printemps that we all know is an "other competition".

Nathan Chen has won this, Satoko Miyahara has won this, Young You was literally here in 2019-20 season. Come on.
 

chasingneverland

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
It's a Challenger, or was at least. I think it was disenfranchised as one, maybe due to lack of participation, this season. It's not an "ISU Other Competition" like Coupe du Printemps that we all know is an "other competition".

Nathan Chen has won this, Satoko Miyahara has won this, Young You was literally here in 2019-20 season. Come on.
It's not a Challenger this year.
 

chasingneverland

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
.

I think the surprise was more because of the timing than the level of a competition.

I think that there are usually high profiles at this comp. I remember in the last olympic season, Marin and Kaori competed there (Marin won) with Mirai or Karen. I'm suprised that it isn't a challenger.
Yes, but this year with COVID and quarantine as well as Nebelhorn, etc, that changed.
 

alexocfp

Medalist
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Country
United-States
Glad we got a few more people to join the debate!
They have minimums at worlds because there is time constraints. No reason for that here. If you don’t want to watch the first few skaters feel free to skip them. No one is forcing you. Personally I saw Tara at Cranberry Cup and liked her skating so I was glad to see her name on the list and looking forward to her skate. I was also excited to see Sasha. I don’t think there’s a problem with having a wide range competing here.
I will watch this event in full. Because some train wreck skates are entertaining. Haha

Plus, I came this far. I do want to see if my candidates will get their scores doubled or not. Haha
 

alexocfp

Medalist
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Country
United-States
If all feds could also invest more it would help those skaters.
South Korean skating culture didn't change just because Yuna won titles and was the first to do so. Otherwise there would be many babies Lu Chen and babies Javier Fernandez. Korean fed invested by sending its skaters train abroad, hiring foreign choreographers, etc. A true system of talents developpement exist. That isn't the case for everyone unfortunately.
Nice post.

People just want different countries entering without thinking of the work and money and other involved.

I can guarantee you that not many, if any, Greeks will take up, or be good at, skating, just because a Greek enters a skating event. First off, the event won‘t be covered in Greece and second of all, there needs to be a change in the culture there to get people to skate. Greece is a football, basketball, amd to,a lesser extent volleyball and water polo country. The cultual shift required to get skating in there is near impossible. Haven‘t met one Greek, in the US or Greece that had ever mentioned the sport.

Argentina won’t become a skating nation just because one person there skates. It’s wishfull thinking.

India is a cricket nation and that is where the money and attention goes. Don‘t know any Indian friend that knows any Indian figure skater.

Contrast that to Russia. It is treated as a major sport hence the athletes want to go in it.

Some nations are tropical and have no winter sports to speak of.

To sum up, some nations are just lost causes when it comes to skating and nothing will change that.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Some nations are tropical and have no winter sports to speak of.
This is also actually where the expenses part comes into picture. You want to run? You can run anywhere you want. You want to skate? Well, find a facility first, buy skates, and then find a someone who'll try to make you stand on two feet, and only then try building the very basic muscle memory. And why you won't find many tropical country skaters who actually belong to those tropical countries appearing in competition.
 

alexocfp

Medalist
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Country
United-States
This isn't an ISU GP or even Challenger event. It's an other international event.

It IS supposed to be a "low tier ranked competition". Trusova wouldn't have gone in a normal year - she went because of visa questions, the pandemic, and for the chance to practice her 5 quad program before it actually mattered.

Also most ISU events DO have minimum requirements. This one doesn't because it IS a low tier competition. These smaller events CAN be considered qualifying events as it's at the smaller events that they DO earn their tech minimums.

Skaters DON'T get entry into whatever competition they like because they're from a non traditional country. They get the opportunity to compete in events LIKE THIS ONE.

No one is pretending all skaters are equal. All skaters don't make it to nationals. All skaters don't make it to international events. All skaters don't make it to the free skate. All skaters don't make it to the Olympics.

THIS is an event where all skaters ARE allowed to compete. And no one is equating Sasha's performance with theirs. No one is pretending too. No one is pretending that Sasha isn't going to be much higher than them. (Although, Sasha is much higher than MOST skaters.)

And you are failing to notice that skaters like Tara HAVE improved. When we first saw Tara she couldn't land a 3S or 2A (I believe she scored in the 20s in the SP in her first senior competition). She was at Cranberry Cup and landed both her 2A and 3F. (She's now scoring in the 40s in the SP.) So no - not always scoring in the 15s. Perhaps even the motivation of competing in competitions is resulting in some of this improvement (during a pandemic no less).
Tara isn‘t the skater I would exclude. She has minimum competence.

I‘m talking skaters that are wobbling while attempting to skate in a straight line. The ISU doesn’t even require that low threshold to be met.

That‘s dangerous too. Hopefully one doesn’t her seriously injured and forces changes because of polical pressures.
 

alexocfp

Medalist
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Country
United-States
This is also actually where the expenses part comes into picture. You want to run? You can run anywhere you want. You want to skate? Well, find a facility first, buy skates, and then find a someone who'll try to make you stand on two feet, and only then try building the very basic muscle memory. And why you won't find many tropical country skaters who actually belong to those tropical countries appearing in competition.
The tropical nations have no reason or desire to get into skating or fund skaters.

Greece will never be good at cricket. They just won’t.
 
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