2021 US Nationals: Men's FS - Thoughts and Observations

[kan01]

Brown - He improves constantly which doesn't seem possible! I suppose the quad is just not mean to be, so I hope he nails the 3A always and forever. I love SOTA.

To say this after Jason has had more than three months without skating in quarantine and minus at least four competitions, aka no first half of the season to actually attempt his jumps, is a bit much.

If you look at his quads from practice, even the not perfect ones, it shows how much he improved and how closer he is. Like Jackie Wong said, he is less hesitant when jumping and he URs much, much less (\not at all) in practice; so the improvement is there and he can only go up, but he needs... you know... an actual season.

So to say Jason Brown is incapable is not knowing how the human brain works. The human brain does not just get stuck. You get stuck when you quit, but if you keep practicing brain synapses don't just get stuck and you can only improve. You don't just get stuck or worse by working more and having more experience. And by practice I mean, again, real seasons. So as long as he trains and attempts quads in real comps, the possibility of landing them relatively consistent is very high. It has nothing to do with failing multiple times and definitely not with age.

You said it yourself, "he improves constantly". But he needs to be able to compete in a season that actually has competitions!

Now I will say this, without any quad he could beat a lot of the top men. He could beat anyone besides Hanyu and Chen without a quad and with his very high GOEs on triples. He choses to train and attempt quads and I respect him and wish he's successful because he wants it and not because I feel like he needs a quad to be great. He's Jason Brown, he's already iconic.

And may I add, the top and top-ish guys with quads fall a lot and pop a lot. Like, A LOT.

And off-topic, Jason's triples are better than multiple-quad-skaters' (for the very most part). Shouldn't it be the other way round? Just goes to show...

 

[kolyadafan2002]

And off-topic, Jason's triples are better than multiple-quad-skaters' (for the very most part). Shouldn't it be the other way round? Just goes to show...

Honestly, other than a dodgy lutz edge (which about half the top guys have) his triples are some of the best around. His 3F seems like the best triple he does, and I've said for years he should have started at the 4F instead of the 4T as he has much more flow and height from the 3F vs the 3T (which he also does nicely).
Jason Brown is somebody who I think isn't naturally a fast rotator (correct me if I'm wrong), but has worked long and hard at it whereas a lot of the quad jumpers have naturally good rotation, so less incentive to work on triple technique and the quality of triples.

 

[kan01]

but has worked long and hard at it

Exactly

 

[Olympic]

To say this after Jason has had more than three months without skating in quarantine and minus at least four competitions, aka no first half of the season to actually attempt his jumps, is a bit much.

If you look at his quads from practice, even the not perfect ones, it shows how much he improved and how closer he is. Like Jackie Wong said, he is less hesitant when jumping and he URs much, much less (\not at all) in practice; so the improvement is there and he can only go up, but he needs... you know... an actual season.

So to say Jason Brown is incapable is not knowing how the human brain works. The human brain does not just get stuck. You get stuck when you quit, but if you keep practicing brain synapses don't just get stuck and you can only improve. You don't just get stuck or worse by working more and having more experience. And by practice I mean, again, real seasons. So as long as he trains and attempts quads in real comps, the possibility of landing them relatively consistent is very high. It has nothing to do with failing multiple times and definitely not with age.

You said it yourself, "he improves constantly". But he needs to be able to compete in a season that actually has competitions!

Now I will say this, without any quad he could beat a lot of the top men. He could beat anyone besides Hanyu and Chen without a quad and with his very high GOEs on triples. He choses to train and attempt quads and I respect him and wish he's successful because he wants it and not because I feel like he needs a quad to be great. He's Jason Brown, he's already iconic.

And may I add, the top and top-ish guys with quads fall a lot and pop a lot. Like, A LOT.

And off-topic, Jason's triples are better than multiple-quad-skaters' (for the very most part). Shouldn't it be the other way round? Just goes to show...

All skaters have experienced the pandemic, but some have completed quads in the competition. Skaters like Paniot have actually improved. Jason had a UR and fall on the 4T here which seems to be par for the course. He has only landed 1 quad in his career that I'm aware of. It really does not matter how great someone is progressing in practice, it really only matters what one can do in competition and until he lands another one, I will assume that it's an element that he hasn't mastered. But, that's fine because he is incredible at everything else. I was actually complimentary of Jason in my initial post.

 

[kan01]

All skaters have experienced the pandemic, but some have completed quads in the competition. Skaters like Paniot have actually improved. Jason had a UR and fall on the 4T here which seems to be par for the course. He has only landed 1 quad in his career that I'm aware of. It really does not matter how great someone is progressing in practice, it really only matters what one can do in competition and until he lands another one, I will assume that it's an element that he hasn't mastered. But, that's fine because he is incredible at everything else. I was actually complimentary of Jason in my initial post.

You said "the quad is just not meant to be" and I responded to that. Clearly Jason does not think the quad is not meant to be because he trains it and attempts it. If not, he would have given up by now. So I, for one, think it could still be meant to be as long as he trains and tries. (if not, why bother and risk injuries?) I used to compete myself (in another sport) and I've learned through literal blood, sweat, and tears that if you keep practicing, practicing, practicing the possibility to achieve something you've struggled with and felt like giving up on is not lost and growth happens until you eventually reach the goal. Of course you have your opinions, but I just wanted to point that out.

 

[Olympic]

You said "the quad is just not meant to be" and I responded to that. Clearly Jason does not think the quad is not meant to be because he trains it and attempts it. If not, he would have given up by now. So I, for one, think it could still be meant to be as long as he trains and tries. (if not, why bother and risk injuries?) I used to compete myself (in another sport) and I've learned through literal blood, sweat, and tears that if you keep practicing, practicing, practicing the possibility to achieve something you've struggled with and felt like giving up on is not lost and growth happens until you eventually reach the goal. Of course you have your opinions, but I just wanted to point that out.

I was just speaking in prose. If he gets a quad, good for him. I would jump for joy. My wish is to see the US put forth skaters at their best

 

[el henry]

The system is fine as is. Nathan is a great skater with world class artistry and components. He just brings something different that cannot easily be compared to old school traditional skaters. With 2 world championship titles, he’s definitely established himself as the worlds best and has set the standard for style and strength in the sport. I’m so glad that the sport has evolved to include different styles of skating like his. Very refreshing.

Can I just say one thing? I'm not understanding the comment about the sport "evolving" to include "different" styles like Nathan's?

Figure skating has, as long as I've been watching, *always* embraced the technical whizzes. After all, Toller barely won an Olympic sympathy bronze because he didn't have the technical skills prized in the 70s. Big bold jumpers have always had their place.

Those of us who love spins, spirals and bladework aren't living in the past, it's just what we like. Those who love big bold jumpers aren't living in the future, it's just what they like.

Posters can agree or disagree about who has style or not, but that is a different issue than what is "old" and what is "new".

 

[TontoK]

@el henry We must be confusing what each other is meaning in this discussion.

It's probably because I'm discounting figures in assessing technical skill of the bygone era, which you correctly point out in a previous post as a weakness for Toller.

But two skaters we both agree are artistic icons finished 1-2 in the Short Program and the Free Skate in Innsbruck. Toller won the short, Curry was second. Curry won the long, Toller was second. They both completed three triples in their long programs, and that was the jump standard of the day. They weren't lagging in this respect, not by any means. Toller didn't get a sympathy bronze - he went out and won that medal with outstanding performances following lackluster figures.

Can "artistic" skaters win? You bet, and not just in the days of yore. Yuzu has won the last two Oympics, for goodness sake. Famously quadless Lysachek beat Plushenko, who had higher jump content (although IMO not executed very well - but that's another argument for another day). Yagudin beat Tim Goebel. While he didn't win gold, at US Nationals Jason defeated Paniot who had 2 quad flips and 2 quad toes over the course of two programs - and they were all well executed.

 

[DreamSkates]

jimmy ma is not only the coolest person at every party but also the most fun person,

And this time he kept his cool in the excited energy when he skated, and performed much better than last year.

 

[el henry]

@el henry We must be confusing what each other is meaning in this discussion.

It's probably because I'm discounting figures in assessing technical skill of the bygone era, which you correctly point out in a previous post as a weakness for Toller.

But two skaters we both agree are artistic icons finished 1-2 in the Short Program and the Free Skate in Innsbruck. Toller won the short, Curry was second. Curry won the long, Toller was second. They both completed three triples in their long programs, and that was the jump standard of the day. They weren't lagging in this respect, not by any means. Toller didn't get a sympathy bronze - he went out and won that medal with outstanding performances following lackluster figures.

Can "artistic" skaters win? You bet, and not just in the days of yore. Yuzu has won the last two Oympics, for goodness sake. Famously quadless Lysachek beat Plushenko, who had higher jump content (although IMO not executed very well - but that's another argument for another day). Yagudin beat Tim Goebel. While he didn't win gold, at US Nationals Jason defeated Paniot who had 2 quad flips and 2 quad toes over the course of two programs - and they were all well executed.

Yes, I agree that Toller commonly achieved the jumps that were prized in his day. I think you are right that the confusion arises because I consider school figures to be the equivalent of what revolutions in jumps are now: if you didn't get them, you weren't going to get beyond a certain point.

You rightly point out Toller's scores, but he barely beat Jan Hoffman, who I don't think was considered an artistic innovator by anyone's standards. And if the youngsters think scoring is political today, back then ...hoo boy

But I was not trying to say Toller was a laggard, but only to point out that appreciation of technical skill, however that is measured, is not some new and shiny idea that just arose in the past ten years. There has always been a push and pull and between "technical" and "artistic".

Preferences aren't determined by age

 

[shine]

Can I just say one thing? I'm not understanding the comment about the sport "evolving" to include "different" styles like Nathan's?

Figure skating has, as long as I've been watching, *always* embraced the technical whizzes. After all, Toller barely won an Olympic sympathy bronze because he didn't have the technical skills prized in the 70s. Big bold jumpers have always had their place.

Those of us who love spins, spirals and bladework aren't living in the past, it's just what we like. Those who love big bold jumpers aren't living in the future, it's just what they like.

Posters can agree or disagree about who has style or not, but that is a different issue than what is "old" and what is "new".

I think it's pretty clear you are intentionally dumbing down what the poster was referring to as Nathan's artistry and style to just being a "technical whizz" with jumps. In fact, the poster made zero mentions of jumps. So naturally they were not trying to make you embrace jumps.

 

[el henry]

I think it's pretty clear you are intentionally dumbing down what the poster was referring to as Nathan's artistry and style to just being a "technical whizz" with jumps. In fact, the poster made zero mentions of jumps. So naturally they were not trying to make you embrace jumps.

I deleted the previous answer and will try again.

I specifically addressed only the concept that embracing tech is some sort of new result of the new scoring system. It isn't.

I didn't discuss the style portions because I was trying to be congenial and discuss areas where there might be agreement. I suspect there would be disagreement on whether Nathan's style is superior to others, but I had no wish to engage on that.

I wasn't trying to "dumb down", I was actually trying to avoid conflict. I am sorry if it was taken in another way.

 

[lurkz2]

I didn't discuss the style portions because I was trying to be congenial and discuss areas where there might be agreement. I suspect there would be disagreement on whether Nathan's style is superior to others, but I had no wish to engage on that.

No one is saying Nathan's style is superior to others, only that the modern style can be equally artistic as the traditional style embraced by purists. Purists may of course (and usually) disagree, but so many younger skaters are embracing Nathan's modern aesthetic.

 

[el henry]

No one is saying Nathan's style is superior to others, only that the modern style can be equally artistic as the traditional style embraced by purists. Purists may of course (and usually) disagree, but so many younger skaters are embracing Nathan's modern aesthetic.

I'm not trying to argue, I truly don't understand.

I don't see how an aesthetic could be any more modern than, for example, the Sinnerman SP. I can assure you, having watched skating since the 70s, there was nothing like that program then. Or in the 80s, or, well, you get it. And I don't think anyone really thinks of Rohene as a master of a "traditional style". ETA: Yet, unless I am misunderstanding, I don't think anyone thinks of Sinnerman as Nathan's style. I could be wrong on that

Again, I'm not saying any one particular style is good or bad, because we all have preferences. I just don't see how one is more "modern"

 

[lurkz2]

I'm not trying to argue, I truly don't understand.

I don't see how an aesthetic could be any more modern than, for example, the Sinnerman SP. I can assure you, having watched skating since the 70s, there was nothing like that program then. Or in the 80s, or, well, you get it. And I don't think anyone really thinks of Rohene as a master of a "traditional style". ETA: Yet, unless I am misunderstanding, I don't think anyone thinks of Sinnerman as Nathan's style. I could be wrong on that

Again, I'm not saying any one particular style is good or bad, because we all have preferences. I just don't see how one is more "modern"

It's argumentative to say Sinnerman is the only modern aesthetic. Just because you prefer one style doesn't mean it's artistically superior...

 

[el henry]

It's argumentative to say Sinnerman is the only modern aesthetic. Just because you prefer one style doesn't mean it's artistically superior...

But I didn't say that

You had said "No one is saying Nathan's style is superior to others, only that the modern style can be equally artistic..."

Now, I apologize if I got this wrong, but I read that as Nathan's style is "the" modern style. And I was offering examples to show that it was not the only example of a modern style, that there are other modern styles.

With each and every post, I think I have taken great pains to say that I am not making a comment on the style itself, just whether it is the only example of new and modern. I. Am. Not. Posting. (here at least) about which style is better. Just which is modern. New. Whatever words could be used for that.

And now it's time for bed

 

[Tahuu]

Remember though during Olympic season Jason was falling quite a lot and having struggles with jump consistency so this bought his average PCS down a lot (same with Kolyada, and Javi)

The PCS ranking is from the current Olympic cycle (2018-2021), NOT last Olympic season. And it has nothing to do with Jason falling during Olympic season. In fact, other than Yuzu and Javi, those are the highest career PCS for the other guys.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Sinnerman is music that Kurt Browning could have performed better than Jason in the 90's, and he did perform rock-themed programs with more edge and commanding energy than what Jason has shown with this program so far.

 

[lurkz2]

You had said "No one is saying Nathan's style is superior to others, only that the modern style can be equally artistic..."

Now, I apologize if I got this wrong, but I read that as Nathan's style is "the" modern style.

I dunno how you could read that from what I wrote, in fact I was careful to use the term "Nathan's modern aesthetic".

You, however, did say Sinnerman was the height of modernity.

I don't see how an aesthetic could be any more modern than, for example, the Sinnerman SP.

I was just saying variety is the spice of life and different styles can be equally appreciated.

 

[Tahuu]

Yaroslav is a podium threat next year if he continues on this track.

With 2 quads in his short he could beat Jason for top 3, if Jason won't get a quad next year.