2021 Worlds: Men's FS "Thoughts and Observations" | Page 13 | Golden Skate

2021 Worlds: Men's FS "Thoughts and Observations"

TontoK

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I was surprised about Hanyu faltering so badly buthe is still a medallist. Yuma was a breath of fresh air. But really the str, the jewel the king is Nathan. He is a beast, a machine. Untouchable. simply untouchble yes his pcs re far too generous but with jumps worth so much he is the best. Shomo was fine wine too but really the skaters tht impressed me in so many ways with opposite styles but equally good - Kolyada and Messing. Messing is actully a good skater. Great skating skills - should have had higher pcs. Very sad not to see Vinny in the fs but Brown did his job. And at least he didn't fall on the 4S - though he tends to two foot or underrotate or both. Brown is the wonderful skater as usual.
Well, it's not as though the skaters he beat were squeaky clean either.

But, I can imagine Kolyada, Vincent, and Shoma at their best, beating him if he skated the same as he did in the free skate. But none of these guys were at their best.

But that's the thing though, isn't it? Really clean performances in major competitions are pretty rare. Did any of the men skate amazingly well over two programs here? My measuring stick is my "frequent rewatch" pile. The only performance added to the pile here was Nathan's free. Nothing else was spectacular. That's not to say there weren't memorable moments or achievements... but I'm too old to invest 5 minutes to rewatch a "moment" when my pile of great performances is so much better.
 

el henry

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Well, it's not as though the skaters he beat were squeaky clean either.

But, I can imagine Kolyada, Vincent, and Shoma at their best, beating him if he skated the same as he did in the free skate. But none of these guys were at their best.

But that's the thing though, isn't it? Really clean performances in major competitions are pretty rare. Did any of the men skate amazingly well over two programs here? My measuring stick is my "frequent rewatch" pile. The only performance added to the pile here was Nathan's free. Nothing else was spectacular. That's not to say there weren't memorable moments or achievements... but I'm too old to invest 5 minutes to rewatch a "moment" when my pile of great performances is so much better.

Sorry my friend.

Since we are taking over two programs, Jason's Sinnerman is in the rewatch pile from now until the end of time.:)

But we agree, the battle of the BV is a useless exercise. Bring it to the competition ice. And a win is a win, and a medal is a medal, and my guy with his big beautiful BV coulda won if he hadn't splatted. Worlds, Olympics, local comp, that's not the point :shrug: That's why we have comps;)
 

TontoK

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Sorry my friend.

Since we are taking over two programs, Jason's Sinnerman is in the rewatch pile from now until the end of time.:)

But we agree, the battle of the BV is a useless exercise. Bring it to the competition ice. And a win is a win, and a medal is a medal, and my guy with his big beautiful BV coulda won if he hadn't splatted. Worlds, Olympics, local comp, that's not the point :shrug: That's why we have comps;)

I thought the Jason's US Nats Sinnerman was better than Stockholm. That's the one in my rewatch pile, but friends can have different opinions.

Edit: Whan I asked if anyone skated well over two programs, I meant skated both programs really amazingly. I don't recall anyone... but I'm open to having my memory refreshed.
 

eppen

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Returning a little bit to the jump patterns and program coverage etc. A lot of interesting thoughts there in the previous page! I have tried to read and listen to a lot of choreographer interviews and approaches to creating the programs seem to vary from diligent preparation beforehand to going on ice as a blank slate or something. But what is really not talked about a lot are the underlying restrictions - the content is the most difficult elements that comply with the rules and that the skater can do with good consistency.

As has been discussed above, the jumps are usually done from certain patterns repeated often in a similar way - what goes into the pattern (steps, turn etc) can vary depending on the skill of the skater. The easier jumps, spins, steps and choreo sequence can be placed and designed with more freedom, but even there for example the entry into a spin can be the same for many years.

Considering all that, it is amazing to see how much the overall program (and this is particularly for FS which I have done for ca. 10 men, some for several seasons) pattern changes every season. I think the job of the choreographer is more to take care of the overall look and feeling of the program and also to make sure that it has everything needed for the maximum point score one way or another (not always just from pure BV, but also GOE - I remember Shae-Lynn saying that she might suggest a level 3 steps that executed well will produce the same score as a level 4 done badly).

But I took some time to get the images I have produced online. They're now in an IG account. Here are Hanyu's quads, Nathan's quads, as well as their program element placement and what the overall skating pattern looks like - a nest of noodles at first look...

I looked at the quads from Hanyu a bit more - six seasons with mostly just two jump types gives more opportunity to compare than the 4 with lots of variation by Chen. But I thought the 4S was interesting. He did it first to the lower left corner for a couple of years, but has since started to use the opposite corner. The pattern for both is roughly the same, but for the past two seasons, he seems to have needed more speed and prep time to get it done with the approach going all the way down to the right hand side instead of the midline used before that. 4T requires very little from him these days - the longer loop+curving line has been replaced by a simple, rink length straight line. The more difficult 4T combos he does to the right with the big loop at the left side preceding them.

When it comes to placing the elements, I don't think it is a coincidence that Hanyu's triples are all in around the midpoint of the rink. He can do the 3A seemingly just about anywhere with and the 3Lo is the same. Chen's 3Lz is more difficult to do to the middle and his 3A is nowhere as good a jump as Hanyu's, so he needs a longer approach for it and it goes into the corner. I'll try and find a bit of time to edit and post some of my older ones where the distribution of elements with easier jumps becomes much clearer.

Edit: An afterthought on Hanyu's FS this year - surprisingly lot of it happens around center ice in front of the judges. And another on the shape of the choreo sequence which can be determined to a large part by a signature move which needs to be prepped (like Shoma's cantilever which seemed to need more crossovers than his quads) and then is executed in a certain way. Hanyu does almost always the layback Ina Bauer and the hydroblading thing which are both usually at least on a slightly curving line. And thinking of content and how the ChSq should reflect the music and the theme of the program in some way - do these signature moves have anything to do with anything? What does Shoma's cantilever add to Turandot or Hanyu's hydroblading to Heaven and Earth?

E
 
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CanadianSkaterGuy

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Pattern does not mean needing to skate into every corner of the rink. It means creating interesting shapes of travel on the ice. Ice coverage does not mean some kind of robotic measurement of exact percentage of using every inch of the rink either.

Ice coverage is quantitative- for years that’s what you hear... this skater uses the whole ice etc.

Sure a perfect program doesn’t have to use 100% of the ice but it’s better to cover more ice than not. It’s like saying every edge doesn’t need to be the deepest edge but the more deep edges you have the more you should be rewarded for it.

An interesting program can theoretically be made with 20% of the ice surface used... but the same program spread over 90% of the ice exhibits things like speed and projection. A performance is meant for the audience so yes, it is important to use the whole area of the ice. But hey you’re welcome to choreograph programs the way you see fit, boo.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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I was surprised about Hanyu faltering so badly buthe is still a medallist. Yuma was a breath of fresh air. But really the str, the jewel the king is Nathan. He is a beast, a machine. Untouchable. simply untouchble yes his pcs re far too generous but with jumps worth so much he is the best. Shomo was fine wine too but really the skaters tht impressed me in so many ways with opposite styles but equally good - Kolyada and Messing. Messing is actully a good skater. Great skating skills - should have had higher pcs. Very sad not to see Vinny in the fs but Brown did his job. And at least he didn't fall on the 4S - though he tends to two foot or underrotate or both. Brown is the wonderful skater as usual.

Hanyu deserves a medal based on the quality of his SP and the jumps he was able to execute in his FS and what the rest of the field did.
 

Moment

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Hanyu deserves a medal based on the quality of his SP and the jumps he was able to execute in his FS and what the rest of the field did.
He successfully landed only three of his jumping passes, one of which (the 4T+Eu+3S) he had to hang on slightly, so I wouldn't say he excelled in the jumping department in his FS. He still deserved a medal, though.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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He successfully landed only three of his jumping passes, one of which (the 4T+Eu+3S) he had to hang on slightly, so I wouldn't say he excelled in the jumping department in his FS. He still deserved a medal, though.

Correct. Hence why he did not deserve any higher than 3rd. He didn't deserve 92 PCS having 4 out of 7 jumping passes with obvious flaws (including 9.5s for PE and a lacklustre performance; only 3 judges were "brave" enough to give him lower than 9s on PE/IN) and should have been mid 280s, instead only 2-3 points off Kagiyama.

But given Uno + Kolyada over the course of the SP/FS, he did more than enough to merit staying on the podium, particularly thanks to the strong SP.
 

MarkinBerkeley

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Sorry my friend.

Since we are taking over two programs, Jason's Sinnerman is in the rewatch pile from now until the end of time.:)

But we agree, the battle of the BV is a useless exercise. Bring it to the competition ice. And a win is a win, and a medal is a medal, and my guy with his big beautiful BV coulda won if he hadn't splatted. Worlds, Olympics, local comp, that's not the point :shrug: That's why we have comps;)
Yes, Jason's program was a masterpiece. And underscored. It should have been scored about 98-100.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Yes, Jason's program was a masterpiece. And underscored. It should have been scored about 98-100.
Okay I’m going okay to call shade this. I love Jason but his 3A was a q and his PCS was 36, and was not 40/40 caliber as brilliant as he is. While what Jason does choreographically is superior to most of the field, the lack of a quad (let alone two) makes his SP easier than the current status quo. Jason only deserves 98ish if he is foot perfect. Anyone who says “he deserves X amount of PCS to hang with guys who can do one or two quads” is really just dismissing the fact that figure skating is emphasizing the sport aspect more than the artistic aspect, which it should. I get it, Jason Brown is special and artistically is great for the sport but to advocate propping him up as deserving 98-100 to make up for his longstanding lack of a quad is bad for the sport and unfair to better athletes jump-wise (which let’s be honest, a lot of the men’s field is, compared to Brown).

To ask a fair question: how much is the rest of the field be allowed to be technically superior to Brown that his artistic capabilities aren’t sufficient to stay on par with them? One quads, two quads, four quads? Are people just crunching PCS math until Jason can match guys who are doing multi-quad programs? Seems kinda unfair.
 

el henry

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Okay I’m going okay to call shade this. I love Jason but his 3A was a q and his PCS was 36, and was not 40/40 caliber as brilliant as he is. While what Jason does choreographically is superior to most of the field, the lack of a quad (let alone two) makes his SP easier than the current status quo. Jason only deserves 98ish if he is foot perfect. Anyone who says “he deserves X amount of PCS to hang with guys who can do one or two quads” is really just dismissing the fact that figure skating is emphasizing the sport aspect more than the artistic aspect, which it should. I get it, Jason Brown is special and artistically is great for the sport but to advocate propping him up as deserving 98-100 to make up for his longstanding lack of a quad is bad for the sport and unfair to better athletes jump-wise (which let’s be honest, a lot of the men’s field is, compared to Brown).

To ask a fair question: how much is the rest of the field be allowed to be technically superior to Brown that his artistic capabilities aren’t sufficient to stay on par with them? One quads, two quads, four quads? Are people just crunching PCS math until Jason can match guys who are doing multi-quad programs? Seems kinda unfair.

to ask a fair question: how much should the rest of the field be gifted PCS when they can’t keep up with the superior technical skills of blade work, spins, choreo and step sequence that Jason demonstrates in Sinnerman?

unless of course the only technical mastery is an extra revolution in the air. On which I call malarkey.

seems kind of unfair. :biggrin:

ETA: And the next one who says "Well others can't do it because they're jumping quads", fear the old lady cyber cane :laugh:. They can't do it because they can't do it. Quads or no.

Every skater has gifts. And every skater should be rewarded for those gifts. I have no problems with jumpers being rewarded for quads. And Jason should be rewarded for what he does.

Why is that so hard. :)
 
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Skater Boy

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Hanyu deserves a medal based on the quality of his SP and the jumps he was able to execute in his FS and what the rest of the field did.
I don't disagree he deserved a medal; we are just used to seeing him doing it when it counts. In some ways though I hope Nathan gets his OGM. Hanyu has two OGM - deserved yes but he could have been placed second in 2014. Anyways. what's done is done. Nathan just has such an arsenal of weapons.
 

Tavi...

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Okay I’m going okay to call shade this. I love Jason but his 3A was a q and his PCS was 36, and was not 40/40 caliber as brilliant as he is. While what Jason does choreographically is superior to most of the field, the lack of a quad (let alone two) makes his SP easier than the current status quo. Jason only deserves 98ish if he is foot perfect. Anyone who says “he deserves X amount of PCS to hang with guys who can do one or two quads” is really just dismissing the fact that figure skating is emphasizing the sport aspect more than the artistic aspect, which it should. I get it, Jason Brown is special and artistically is great for the sport but to advocate propping him up as deserving 98-100 to make up for his longstanding lack of a quad is bad for the sport and unfair to better athletes jump-wise (which let’s be honest, a lot of the men’s field is, compared to Brown).

To ask a fair question: how much is the rest of the field be allowed to be technically superior to Brown that his artistic capabilities aren’t sufficient to stay on par with them? One quads, two quads, four quads? Are people just crunching PCS math until Jason can match guys who are doing multi-quad programs? Seems kinda unfair.
I generally respect your opinions but I have to say I completely disagree with you here.

Essentially you seem to be saying either that (1) there should be a cap on PCS if you don’t do quads, no matter how complex your transitions or choreography - perhaps because for you a program without quads is automatically less interesting; or (2) that judges should cut some PCS slack to skaters who include quads in their programs because quads take more energy than tripled - ie that PCS for a program with quads but less intricate or less well-performed choreography should be judged by a lower standard than a well performed program with complex choreo but only triples.

Basically it sounds like you think PCS should be factored to the base value of jumps, just like GOE is.

I think if that’s the case, it means there’s really no value to skating skills, choreography, or music, and there’s really no point to awarding PCS at all.

ETA by the way Nathan got q on his 4Z and also fell on it. His PCS was slightly higher than Jason’s for a performance that was far from his best.
 
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georgia

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ETA by the way Nathan got q on his 4Z and also fell on it. His PCS was slightly higher than Jason’s for a performance that was far from his best.
Ok..let’s say Jason had gotten more, maybe three points over Nathan, how that will have changed anything?
I personally love Nathan’s skating! I like it much more Than the rest.. matter of preference..but still. The bottom line is, the pcs points didn‘t make any difference in this case!
 

Tavi...

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Ok..let’s say Jason had gotten more, maybe three points over Nathan, how that will have changed anything?
I personally love Nathan’s skating! I like it much more Than the rest.. matter of preference..but still. The bottom line is, the pcs points didn‘t make any difference in this case!
What I said wasn’t a criticism of Nathan. I like him very much and thought his Worlds FS was great.

But as to your other point, I do think scoring PCS accurately is important. Sometimes a few points can make a huge difference. Vincent missed making the FS at Worlds by less than half a point. I’m not necessarily saying he should have gotten more PCS for that particular performance, just saying that sometimes a few points can be really consequential. Sometimes it’s enough to change placement, seeding, world standing, and personal best scores for lower finishing skaters, as well as how many spots are qualified for Worlds/Olympics, and whether or not a skater earns any prize money. It’s not always about who wins.

Besides, if PCS scores are essentially arbitrary, awarding them becomes meaningless.
 

el henry

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I would never ever say that someone should not have a favorite skater different than mine. It would be an awfully dull world if we all loved the same thing. Every skater deserves love and deserves to be someone's favorite❤️

But whether or not it affects the podium doesn't mean Jason shouldn't get the PCS scores he deserves. ust as skaters who do quads should get the scores for those who do quads.

It also doesn't mean that what he does is not different, is not athletic, is not technical, and that every other man could do it if they just ditched a few quads. Not so ;)

And I learned very early, loving Toller, that believing a skater was the absolute best, and that skater winning, were two entirely different things. I have carried that lesson for all these years. :biggrin:
 

ice coverage

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... It also doesn't mean that what he does is not different, is not athletic, is not technical, and that every other man could do it if they just ditched a few quads. Not so ;) ...

Has anyone claimed that every other man could do what Jason does if they just ditched a few quads??
If so, I missed it. I do not think that CSG was making such a claim.
You often ask others to be specific and not make "blind" references, and I am borrowing a page from your book. :)

(I agree that not every other man could do what Jason does if they just ditched a few quads.)
 

el henry

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Has anyone claimed that every other man could do what Jason does if they just ditched a few quads??
If so, I missed it. I do not think that CSG was making such a claim.
You often ask others to be specific and not make "blind" references, and I am borrowing a page from your book. :)

(I agree that not every other man could do what Jason does if they just ditched a few quads.)

If I have misread Canadian Skater Guy's post, I am sure that he will tell me. ;) ETA: But I could say the same thing simply by inserting a "jumping off". So I will do that ex post facto:)
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Ok..let’s say Jason had gotten more, maybe three points over Nathan, how that will have changed anything?
I personally love Nathan’s skating! I like it much more Than the rest.. matter of preference..but still. The bottom line is, the pcs points didn‘t make any difference in this case!

Yeah and I honestly think this is the key thing. Jason’s skating is incredibly special but no skater with zero or 1 borderline quad is special enough to be comparatively on par with someone doing 5 or 6 quads - even if Chen wasn’t as artistic as he is. It would be the equivalent of a skater doing only doubles and somehow deserving to be considered on par with skaters doing all triples.

I do believe PCS can only go so far. At some point you need to be producing the technical goods.

People only advocate for a higher PCS gap because Jason’s current technical ability simply does not allow him to challenge Chen.

At some point you need to stop griping that the PCS scale isn’t increased and Jason given more credit so the gap is closer and take greater issue with Jason’s inability - not for lack of trying mind you - to technically cut it. Everything he does outside of jumps is stellar but unfortunately jumps are key in this sport. PCS shouldn’t be a means to “save” a skater or absolve them.
 
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