2022 Four Continents: Women's Short Program

[CoyoteChris]

For anyone interested, Kaori Sakamoto's pronunciation of her own name can be heard here:

https://twitter.com/NHKTrophyFigure/status/1331507919494365184

I had one of our wonderful Japanese American fans here try and teach me . I cant say it (as Kaori herself says it, it is said very fast of course) But then again I couldnt say the word "available" till I was 40...I still cant say "burglary" A number of Japanese names, like US names, have different pronunciations.

 

[SnowWhite]

It's about having sensitivity for the skater's culture. I'm alright with Ted Barton for instance (though his pronunciation is far from perfect, he is frequently apologetic and tries to correct himself). In contrast, Chris takes a stab in the dark and tries to gloss over it. This isn't a Canadian vs British thing either, because Mark Hanretty makes a decent effort - he can probably empathise from a life spent hearing Scottish names being perpetually mispronounced by neighbours down south.

To make an analogy that might be more understandable for you - it's a bit like misgendering a trans or non-binary person. Mistakes are understandable, repeated insistence on using the wrong pronouns is disrespectful.

I also think Ted may be one of those people who's just bad with names in general, because I swear I've heard him mess pretty easy "North American" type names. But I do think he tries. Plus, during the JGP he might have 80-120 skaters per event, many of whom may be new to the international scene, so I'm more forgiving.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Young you gave me a heart attack but still I love you my girl

I love all three. Glad I got to see Yelim and Young live at SA....

 

[CoyoteChris]

Young probably hoped for a win here, will be tough with a lead that Mai has.

"It aint over till its over." Yogi Bear

 

[CoyoteChris]

I love the banner that has that spectacular black swan costume.

I have been to alot of events and Koreans do the most beautiful banners.
There were bunches of them at SA Lake Placid 2009

 

[RafaelAstro]

I'm so happy to see two skaters from my country and from my city competing here
Andrea: She is coming from an injury, I know she can do better anyways I love her program and it looked better than the last time I saw it, she got a seasons best and I happy for that but I'm sad she still doesn't have the minimuns for worlds, and I wanted to see her at the Olympics with Donovan :'(
Eugenia: That was a nice surprise, she has power in her jumps and nice steps, a big jump since the last time I saw her on jgp, with a new personal best I'm so happy for her
By the way, nice job Mai that was an incredible program, jumps could have been better but a new season best for her and I hope she goes clean in the free and wins this competition
Sad for Rino idk what happened there, love her programs and for Yuhana sadly I was expecting that
Anyways, good luck for the ladies in the free!

 

[skylark]

It's about having sensitivity for the skater's culture. I'm alright with Ted Barton for instance (though his pronunciation is far from perfect, he is frequently apologetic and tries to correct himself). In contrast, Chris takes a stab in the dark and tries to gloss over it. This isn't a Canadian vs British thing either, because Mark Hanretty makes a decent effort - he can probably empathise from a life spent hearing Scottish names being perpetually mispronounced by neighbours down south.

To make an analogy that might be more understandable for you - it's a bit like misgendering a trans or non-binary person. Mistakes are understandable, repeated insistence on using the wrong pronouns is disrespectful.

thanks, but I don't need to be helped to understand. I thought it might be valuable to take a compassionate and culturally understanding look at where Chris is coming from. Apparently I was wrong.

It makes the competition threads less enjoyable for me, when so much space is given to b-tching about the commentator, when clearly people could find a different stream with a different or no commentator if it really bothers them so much. I don't like to use the ignore button because then I'll miss some of the (to me, more enjoyable) jokes and such. But I guess that's my only alternative now, except for me to avoid the competition threads.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

thanks, but I don't need to be helped to understand. I thought it might be valuable to take a compassionate and culturally understanding look at where Chris is coming from. Apparently I was wrong.

It makes the competition threads less enjoyable for me, when so much space is given to b-tching about the commentator, when clearly people could find a different stream with a different or no commentator if it really bothers them so much. I don't like to use the ignore button because then I'll miss some of the (to me, more enjoyable) jokes and such. But I guess that's my only alternative now, except for me to avoid the competition threads.

Chris is actually one of my preferred commentators, he does point out technical stuff and he and Nicky were the original Eurosport uncles famed for their enthusiastic commentary (far better than Simon anyway). I didn't mean to condescend to you. I just don't think there is anything inherently British in the way he pronounces things, rightly or wrongly (and I've lived in the UK for years). He's just a guy who struggles with names, and unlike Ted, is not particularly conscientious about it.

Some of the criticism did get a bit repetitive, but I would say that 'bitching' is a really strong word.

 

[withwings]

Oh, dear, I do not believe that skylark meant to say this 'really strong word' particularly for you or to you but rather about general tendency of negativity in competition threads.
Sometimes we (all) can hear/bear things a lot and then, eventually, one tiny drop seems to be too much, just MHO (and unimportant) opinion,sorry.

 

[skylark]

Oh, dear, I do not believe that skylark meant to say this 'really strong word' particularly for you or to you but rather about general tendency of negativity in competition threads.
Sometimes we (all) can hear/bear things a lot and then, eventually, one tiny drop seems to be too much, just MHO (and unimportant) opinion,sorry.

You said it perfectly. Thank you

 

[skylark]

Chris is actually one of my preferred commentators, he does point out technical stuff and he and Nicky were the original Eurosport uncles famed for their enthusiastic commentary (far better than Simon anyway). I didn't mean to condescend to you. I just don't think there is anything inherently British in the way he pronounces things, rightly or wrongly (and I've lived in the UK for years). He's just a guy who struggles with names, and unlike Ted, is not particularly conscientious about it.

I was a language major, and I've always tried to pronounce foreign words and names correctly when I can. To me, it's fun.

An ear for language is like a musical ear. In my experience as a linguist, a writer, and a church musician, it's exactly like that. Some people have perfect pitch, others have a tin ear for music, and most lie somewhere between. And they can't help it, it's inborn, although the in-betweens can improve their sense of pitch. Maybe Chris has a tin ear for languages and accents. It seems to me a little tolerance in both directions is a good thing.

Some of the criticism did get a bit repetitive, but I would say that 'bitching' is a really strong word.

I really enjoy the competition threads for the fun and humor, and for the feeling that we're doing this viewing together. But when people are harping over something when they so clearly don't even need to listen to that particular commentator, the negativity gets to be too much for me.

Another funny thing. I've never ever heard a skater complain about their names being mispronounced. And I've heard many an English name mispronounced. The skaters are aware that when they go to another country, it's something that can happen. It's even normal.

 

[karne]

Chris is an otherwise generally very good commentator who I usually enjoy - and that's probably why it bothers me so much that he is so awful with names. The occasional tongue-stumble is understandable, but anything not remotely "ordinary" and he just throws some sounds out that approximate it. (He didn't even say "Melbourne" correctly when he was introducing Victoria!). It is not a lot of effort to cross-check what you're saying, to mark up an intro sheet with the proper pronounciation, heck, if possible to even ask the skater.

But, and perhaps this is less well-known on this forum, British sport also had something of a nadir in 2021 with a culture of racism in their cricket setup, particularly Yorkshire, being blown open. And one of the earliest warning signs, one of the things that triggered the start of the investigation, was the refusal of the English players to say Cheteshwar Pujara's name correctly, and call him "Steve" instead. It turned out to be a minor symptom of a horrendous problem.

So the idea that British commentators are continuing to blunder along saying whatever they like for people's names after such a huge exposure in their own country - and it went before parliament and everything, it was a huge deal - is a lot unsettling, and the idea that people are defending it as "this is just how British commentators are" is tone-deaf at best.

As for skaters not speaking up - we don't know that for sure. Perhaps they do, privately. Perhaps some of them don't feel sufficiently empowered to do so. Perhaps they have, seen that Chris makes no effort to say their name correctly, and have since given up because they're concerned about what will happen if they "make a scene".

 

[Skater Boy]

Kailani Craine (AUS)

I feel really happy about my performance, for me I just really want to enjoy this competition, and obviously Olympic season around. I’m really proud of this whole season, I’ve done triple-triple, regardless that I haven’t pulled up for a triple-double, that’s kind of a goal for me for this season, I don’t want to ruin my streak, so I’m trying to do that every short (program) this year.

(on going to the Olympics) It’s based on this competition. It’s a bit different this year, so hopefully I can get that spot that I earned. Our scores are taken from Finlandia Trophy and this competition, but not the full score, just the technical score, so it’s a bit weird this year, but it’s ok. I’m pushing myself for the bigger elements and hopefully which gets me more prepared for the Olympics. We didn’t want to do this competition, but we had no choice, so I’m definitely glad it’s in Tallinn, because I love Tallinn. I’ve been here twice before, for the Junior Grand Prix and Junior Worlds, I have really good memories from Junior Worlds, it was really fun.

I love the way she says she earned the oly spot for AUS. She did but her overall skating has not been strong enough o earn it outright. But i wish here well she has some nice moves

 

[ice coverage]

... Another funny thing. I've never ever heard a skater complain about their names being mispronounced. And I've heard many an English name mispronounced. The skaters are aware that when they go to another country, it's something that can happen. It's even normal.

... As for skaters not speaking up - we don't know that for sure. Perhaps they do, privately. Perhaps some of them don't feel sufficiently empowered to do so. ...

Off topic, but skylark's comments are very upsetting to me -- as a volunteer who has had the opportunity/responsibility to announce official practices at ISU competitions hosted by USFS. Also at USFS domestic competitions.
(Certainly a different role from a professional broadcast announcer such as Chris.)

I have direct knowledge of instances when lower-profile and/or non-U.S. competitors have said that it means something to them that an arena announcer did pronounce their names correctly. Especially when it is the first time the skaters get to hear their names pronounced correctly, after mispronunciations at previous events.

I know that I am not the only announcer whose goal is to give *every* skater the respect of having their name pronounced correctly -- and who *never* thinks, "It doesn't really matter what the skaters hear -- they probably are accustomed to mispronunciations and don't really care."
Maybe some skaters would not care, but some do care, even if they have not openly complained.

I wish that I could be certain of every pronunciation, although that is not always realistic.
When I feel uncertain about pronunciations, I make efforts whenever possible to find out what is correct -- for example, by speaking directly to skaters/coaches/family members. (Sometimes videos are helpful too. Well-intentioned ISU and USFS lists sometimes are not as comprehensive as I would hope; also not immune from errors.)

I am pleased that USFS has added a standard announcement at official practices along the lines of, "If we have mispronounced your name, please let the announcing team know so that we can make corrections prior to your event."
At 2022 Nats, I anecdotally was aware of at least two skaters [ETA (on Jan 23): both happened to be juniors] who spoke up in response to this request. I don't know whether there were more. I hope that empowering skaters could help make a difference. (My understanding is that the USFS member website also has a place for skaters to provide pronunciations? But I don't have access to that area.)

 

[Flying Feijoa]

@skylark and @karne both have a point. I can see how the abundance of pronunciation gripes in this thread could get a bit tedious and overwhelm the skating-related discussion. And Britain definitely does have racial issues with language, although I personally would give Chris the benefit of the doubt as he often flubs English names too. As I mentioned, I am OK with people as long as they try - some just don't have the aptitude, it's not their fault.

I see the issue of name pronunciation as more about inclusivity, rather than pedantry. If like me, you've grown up with people mangling your name (sometimes mockingly, by making it sound like a rude word) you would most likely view it through this lens. A language major may see the other angle. One's perspective depends a lot on the environment they are familiar with, which is why I made an analogy to misgendering, because although I don't know if Skylark has a non-English name, they are evidently a fan of Tim LeDuc and understand the challenges of trans and nonbinary people. I wasn't trying to be patronising, sorry if it came off that way!

Another factor in my personal view: in NZ, Maori have long campaigned for the use and proper pronunciation of place names in their language (e.g. as a non-Maori, I first heard 'Taupo' as the Anglicised 'towel-poe', but by the mid-2000s weather forecasters had begun to use 'toe-paw'. Further back, my mother learnt about Mt Egmont in geography, I know it as Taranaki). Perhaps in the US the situation varies by state, but from an outsider's perspective it doesn't seem like indigenous language representation is a subject of much political discussion (do correct me if I'm wrong).

Anyway, pardon the digression. Bringing it back to the skating - the Korean ladies and their wardrobe are formidable and excellent. Glad that Mai is doing great, but I'm really sad for Yuhana, hope she can have a clean redemptive free especially as she may retire soon.

 

[withwings]

Is not it great that everyone has a different opinion/is looking from the the different perspective on name pronouncing?.A mosaic is made complete only from the many different pieces.

I have not yet manged to watch all the skates and skaters....

 

[Skater Boy]

Is not it great that everyone has a different opinion/is looking from the the different perspective on name pronouncing?.A mosaic is made complete only from the many different pieces.

I have not yet manged to watch all the skates and skaters....

And onto the topic of this thread. These ladies may not be the top tier but my heart goes out to them. The Koran ladies all are so beautiful to watch. And Mai finally may get a well earned gold mdal or at least a medal It looks like Korea might still be trying to decide their team for men's and Women. I was hoping one of the American ladies would step it up and that Gabby Daleman might end on a high note but so far all have been flat or disappointing. You can see the Yuna Kim influence on her ladies. Complete skaters with fluid jumps, lyrical skatign qualities, nice spins and great flow on ice. the Australian battle is a ice story I guess. But I wish they had m oe top flight ladies.

 

[4everchan]

I also think Ted may be one of those people who's just bad with names in general, because I swear I've heard him mess pretty easy "North American" type names. But I do think he tries. Plus, during the JGP he might have 80-120 skaters per event, many of whom may be new to the international scene, so I'm more forgiving.

Ted is awful with names from his own country... not only the French names... but a bunch of other names as well...

 

[skylark]

@skylark and @karne both have a point. I can see how the abundance of pronunciation gripes in this thread could get a bit tedious and overwhelm the skating-related discussion.

thank you.

I see the issue of name pronunciation as more about inclusivity, rather than pedantry. If like me, you've grown up with people mangling your name (sometimes mockingly, by making it sound like a rude word) you would most likely view it through this lens. A language major may see the other angle. One's perspective depends a lot on the environment they are familiar with, which is why I made an analogy to misgendering, because although I don't know if Skylark has a non-English name, they are evidently a fan of Tim LeDuc and understand the challenges of trans and nonbinary people. I wasn't trying to be patronising, sorry if it came off that way!

thank you again. It's a good analogy. I personally have a last name that people often don't believe when they hear it, so I always repeat it and spell it. But I don't have a problem with that. It's just a matter of giving people the benefit of the doubt ... that they're struggling, not trying to be disrespectful. I had a friend with a similar last name and experience. She got all huffy and insulted when people misunderstood, and questioned her. (Both our last names are more typically given names for females, so it confuses people.)

I'm sorry you had the experience that you did. It's so sad when people are deliberately cruel.

Another factor in my personal view: in NZ, Maori have long campaigned for the use and proper pronunciation of place names in their language (e.g. as a non-Maori, I first heard 'Taupo' as the Anglicised 'towel-poe', but by the mid-2000s weather forecasters had begun to use 'toe-paw'. Further back, my mother learnt about Mt Egmont in geography, I know it as Taranaki). Perhaps in the US the situation varies by state, but from an outsider's perspective it doesn't seem like indigenous language representation is a subject of much political discussion (do correct me if I'm wrong).

I have a strong belief in calling people by the name they want to be called, and I'll ask. I find that if it's important to people, they'll say so. Others aren't bothered by mispronunciation; even when I've asked, I've had a number of people laugh and reply, "oh, I'll answer to any of the above." Consideration goes both ways.

 

[skylark]

Off topic, but skylark's comments are very upsetting to me -- as a volunteer who has had the opportunity/responsibility to announce official practices at ISU competitions hosted by USFS. Also at USFS domestic competitions.
(Certainly a different role from a professional broadcast announcer such as Chris.)

Sorry to upset you. I was only addressing that there's a cumulative negative effect to the repeated comments in the comp thread, but I'll certainly use the ignore button in the future. I'm glad that you make sure you get names right, and I'm sure your effort makes people feel welcome and warm.

My original comments have drifted, but this whole thing may not be Chris's fault at all. If you were upset by my post, perhaps you also read my thoughts about some people having the equivalent of "no ear" for music. They can't help it.

Some years ago I was part of a group that included a woman originally from Hungary. A friend of mine couldn't understand how someone who'd lived in USA for more than 50 years would still have a heavy accent. But it wasn't for lack of effort. The Hungarian-American woman was like someone else who'd lived in Michigan for 50 years but still had a Mississippi accent. She just didn't pick up the new speech patterns. Someone I knew thought she was being fake, but she wasn't.

I'm the opposite. I pick up the speech patterns of where I am, whether I want to or not. So I have to reclaim my Oklahoma-isms on purpose. Of course, I do it without trying when I'm there.

I am pleased that USFS has added a standard announcement at official practices along the lines of, "If we have mispronounced your name, please let the announcing team know so that we can make corrections prior to your event."
At 2022 Nats, I anecdotally was aware of at least two skaters who spoke up in response to this request. I don't know whether there were others. I hope that empowering skaters could help make a difference. (My understanding is that the USFS member website also has a place for skaters to provide pronunciations? But I don't have access to that area.)

I think that's great.