2022 JGP Egna/Neumarkt Rhythm Dance | Page 9 | Golden Skate

2022 JGP Egna/Neumarkt Rhythm Dance

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
For me the Koreans' Free Dance was light years ahead in terms of choreography, mood setting, story telling, interpretation of music and performance. Light years ahead!

As for speed, well as Marina Anisina said in response to Barbara Fusar-Poli in 2002:
"It's Ice Dance not Downhill Skiing!"
Interestingly Matteo Zanni (coach of Mrazeks and Taschlers) used to coach alongside Barbara Fusar-Poli. I can see some commonality in their approaches e.g. Guignard/Fabbri also have some wicked speed and are known for being technically strong.
I don't think the score gap would be as big if L/Q hadn't messed up in the RD. That said, I watched their free after the Mrazeks and got Chock/Bates vibes - Hannah projects a lot more than Ye, and (while speed isn't the be-all) they don't stand out for skating power.
While I prefer G/F over C/B, naturally both these senior teams have an artistic maturity which MM don't yet share (but L of L/Q is showing a knack for).
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
As for speed, well as Marina Anisina said in response to Barbara Fusar-Poli in 2002:
"It's Ice Dance not Downhill Skiing!"
This response is funny, but it surprises me...Annisina & Peizerat were skating were fast, faster than Mrs. Barbara & Margaglio if I remember well.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
I thought I was the only one that felt that way! I'm sure their lines will be addressed before too long but I feel her posture helps generate that
speed.
It will be interesting to see how they develop.
Wrong posture reduces speed.

Head forward leads to more curved spine…
…which leads to deep stabilizing muscles being wrongly activated…
…which leads to worse centring on blade…
…which decreases speed.

In Katerina’s case I am sure that head and shoulders forward are already partially fixed because of shortened muscles (pectoral, scalene, trapezius, short extensors of back part of neck). She needs to reduce tension in those muscles with for example post isometric relaxation (done by fyzio or autotherapy). Then she will be ready to correct properly both head and shoulders (without her body fighting with her - pushing head and shoulders forward automatically).

Both Katerina and Daniel were competing in singles in the beginning of 2020. Overall Czech skating system is not well known for perfect ballet preparation of skaters. That is a disadvantage for Katerina. But Daniel was able to correct body posture and his arm and hands work is one of the most elegant in male‘s field, so I expect that she will improve as well.

Good body position is way more aesthetic, but is also way more healthy!

Top athletes are overusing body, so it is impossible to keep them 100% healthy. But some things should be controlled since early age to protect and reduce a chance that athlete will be forced to retire soon.

For example muscle imbalance leads to wrongly centered joints...

To center joint is essential and the only way how to protect the joint. Centered position means that the pressure on all parts of joint is symmetrical.

Not centered joint means that the joint is pressured patologically and degenerates sooner (cartilago changes which are the beginning of artrosis…). Soft tissues react sooner than joints – leading to enthesopathy, impingement syndrome and so on.

Correct body posture and wrightly executed exercises off ice are essential BECAUSE…

…count how many times top athletes can use wrongly centered joint – for example shoulder. Frankly I have no idea – 200 movements of shoulder per practise? The pressure on shoulder is much bigger while lifting partner or holding own weight on upper limbs. Multiply 200 with three practises per day six days per week for plus minus four weeks. Add about 200 movements of shoulder off ice per day (warm-up, ballet, gymnastics, athletics…)

(200 x 3 x 6 x 4) + (200 x 6 x 4)= 19 200 movements of shoulder per month…. 19 200 times per month when shoulder is patologically pressured. Than we can only suggest how long it will take an athlete to injure himsef / herself.

When you look at Tessa & Scott‘s off ice preparation you can mention that they put BIG attention to centering all joints and keep body core in wright position and strengthened in every exercise. It is not difficult to say why.
 

dcr

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Wrong posture reduces speed.

Head forward leads to more curved spine…
…which leads to deep stabilizing muscles being wrongly activated…
…which leads to worse centring on blade…
…which decreases speed.

In Katerina’s case I am sure that head and shoulders forward are already partially fixed because of shortened muscles (pectoral, scalene, trapezius, short extensors of back part of neck). She needs to reduce tension in those muscles with for example post isometric relaxation (done by fyzio or autotherapy). Then she will be ready to correct properly both head and shoulders (without her body fighting with her - pushing head and shoulders forward automatically).

Both Katerina and Daniel were competing in singles in the beginning of 2020. Overall Czech skating system is not well known for perfect ballet preparation of skaters. That is a disadvantage for Katerina. But Daniel was able to correct body posture and his arm and hands work is one of the most elegant in male‘s field, so I expect that she will improve as well.

Good body position is way more aesthetic, but is also way more healthy!

Top athletes are overusing body, so it is impossible to keep them 100% healthy. But some things should be controlled since early age to protect and reduce a chance that athlete will be forced to retire soon.

For example muscle imbalance leads to wrongly centered joints...

To center joint is essential and the only way how to protect the joint. Centered position means that the pressure on all parts of joint is symmetrical.

Not centered joint means that the joint is pressured patologically and degenerates sooner (cartilago changes which are the beginning of artrosis…). Soft tissues react sooner than joints – leading to enthesopathy, impingement syndrome and so on.

Correct body posture and wrightly executed exercises off ice are essential BECAUSE…

…count how many times top athletes can use wrongly centered joint – for example shoulder. Frankly I have no idea – 200 movements of shoulder per practise? The pressure on shoulder is much bigger while lifting partner or holding own weight on upper limbs. Multiply 200 with three practises per day six days per week for plus minus four weeks. Add about 200 movements of shoulder off ice per day (warm-up, ballet, gymnastics, athletics…)

(200 x 3 x 6 x 4) + (200 x 6 x 4)= 19 200 movements of shoulder per month…. 19 200 times per month when shoulder is patologically pressured. Than we can only suggest how long it will take an athlete to injure himsef / herself.

When you look at Tessa & Scott‘s off ice preparation you can mention that they put BIG attention to centering all joints and keep body core in wright position and strengthened in every exercise. It is not difficult to say why.
Wow! Thanks for the in depth explanation. Much appreciated! I learned a lot from it.
 

IceDancingQueen

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 7, 2017
For me the Koreans' Free Dance was light years ahead in terms of choreography, mood setting, story telling, interpretation of music and performance. Light years ahead!

As for speed, well as Marina Anisina said in response to Barbara Fusar-Poli in 2002:
"It's Ice Dance not Downhill Skiing!"

Haha I didn’t know Annissina said that! Too right! Yes, I thought the Koreans FD was light years better in terms of the whole package. I’m pleased M/M’s FD was only 2 points ahead in the end and not a runaway win like in their other Grand Prix. They may have speed but they still have a lot to work on in terms of polish and performance.
 

IceDancingQueen

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 7, 2017
I thought I was the only one that felt that way! I'm sure their lines will be addressed before too long but I feel her posture helps generate that
speed. It will be interesting to see how they develop.
I think it will be interesting to see how they develop too especially as a brother and sister team. It’s very hard for good brother and sister teams to make it to the top in seniors. I know the Duscheneys and Shibs faired well and Taschlers seem to be doing well so far but it is so much more difficult for sibling teams to get the right dynamic in their programmes and in their connection to one another to avoid it being creepy.
 

La Rhumba

Supporting All British Skaters!
Medalist
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Country
United-Kingdom
I think it will be interesting to see how they develop too especially as a brother and sister team. It’s very hard for good brother and sister teams to make it to the top in seniors. I know the Duscheneys and Shibs faired well and Taschlers seem to be doing well so far but it is so much more difficult for sibling teams to get the right dynamic in their programmes and in their connection to one another to avoid it being creepy.
The Kerrs won 2 European Bronze Medals, though with fairer Judging one medal should've been Silver, when they were the first skaters in any discipline to use Muse for their Free Dance.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
The Kerrs won 2 European Bronze Medals, though with fairer Judging one medal should've been Silver, when they were the first skaters in any discipline to use Muse for their Free Dance.
Thank you for taking me back in time, I rewatched some of great performances from past.

Kerrs were definitely the couple to remember. Their Matrix FD in 2003/04 was one of the best Matrix programs on the ice. Their Landing by Enigma FD in 2007/08 was great, Exogenesis FD in 2010/11 was touching. I am sure we all remember Scottish dance as well. I also like Last of The Mohycans FD in 2006/07. Unfortunately they were not the best in Skating Skills which cost them more medals.

I must mention Zaretski siblings as well. They visibly improved in their last season before retiring. Their Schindler's List FD at the Olympics 2010 was one of the strongest emotional dances I ever saw, for me it was the best interpretation of this music ever. (They also deserved a letter by Spielberg.)

Four sibling couples took part at Olympics in 2010 - 8th Kerr, 10th Zaretski, 17th Reed, 18th Beier.

Anjelika & Erich Buck were siblings representing Germany, they won European Championships in 1972, they are 4-time World medalists.

Eva & Pavel Roman were great Czech dance team, 4- time World Champions between 1962 - 1965, 2-time European Champions.

Kerr's Matrix - https://youtu.be/9f2tGX1slAE

Zaretski's Olympic Schindler's List (starting at 1:51:25) - https://youtu.be/BKYe_qMnbPo .
 

La Rhumba

Supporting All British Skaters!
Medalist
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Country
United-Kingdom
@sisinka wrote:

Anjelika & Erich Buck were siblings representing Germany, they won European Championships in 1972, they are 4-time World medalists.
And deserved to win Gold in 72 with a much more technically difficult and interesting Free Dance, but the Judges deemed Pakhamova/Gorschkov more elegant. We got the chance to Judge for ourselves when Floskate uploaded both FDs to YouTube recently.

The Bucks were coached by Betty Calllaway - Together they created the Ravensburger Waltz ÷ and skated in the British style following on from Towler & Ford - very fast Footwork, matching free legs at all times, and very musical, with innovative moves.

Sadly Betty Callaway's next couple Roegozcy/Sally lost the Olympic Gold to another Russian couple (Natalia Linichuk & Gennadi Karponosov) in a controversial decision before beating them a few weeks later at Worlds. But Betty's next big stars would not be moved, despite off ice shenanigams! They were Torvill & Dean.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
.....But Betty's next big stars would not be moved, despite off ice shenanigams! They were Torvill & Dean.
YES! Torvill & Dean and their great dances. They were cathegory on its own. Always very innovative. And inspiration for next generations of both skaters and choreographers. Did you mention Meryl & Charlie Tango FD in 2010/11 - straight line lift on one leg while holding Meryl neck with her legs laying on his free leg - this position is taken from lift in Bolero.
 

La Rhumba

Supporting All British Skaters!
Medalist
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Country
United-Kingdom
YES! Torvill & Dean and their great dances. They were cathegory on its own. Always very innovative. And inspiration for next generations of both skaters and choreographers. Did you mention Meryl & Charlie Tango FD in 2010/11 - straight line lift on one leg while holding Meryl neck with her legs laying on his free leg - this position is taken from lift in Bolero.
Oh, there are countless examples. When Marina Zoueva was coaching Virtue/Moir, Davis/White, Shibs etc, she would recycle Torvill & Dean music, choreo, even costumes from their Amateur & Pro career every season for her couples. In truth T&D were the only Dance couple the Russians ever admired outside of Russia.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Oh, there are countless examples. When Marina Zoueva was coaching Virtue/Moir, Davis/White, Shibs etc, she would recycle Torvill & Dean music, choreo, even costumes from their Amateur & Pro career every season for her couples. In truth T&D were the only Dance couple the Russians ever admired outside of Russia.
In general I don't mind using ideas from old programs. Torvill & Dean's dances were like never ending chain of creative things. But I would vote for giving them credit for it. Something like: "We have new program. And we were inspired by T & D's Bolero / Tango / Dance with hat program - we used the lift position and hands hold from that program."

Dance is never done from one lift or one hands hold, but if choreographer uses ideas from another choreographer, he / she should mention it probably.
 

La Rhumba

Supporting All British Skaters!
Medalist
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Country
United-Kingdom
In general I don't mind using ideas from old programs. Torvill & Dean's dances were like never ending chain of creative things. But I would vote for giving them credit for it. Something like: "We have new program. And we were inspired by T & D's Bolero / Tango / Dance with hat program - we used the lift position and hands hold from that program."

Dance is never done from one lift or one hands hold, but if choreographer uses ideas from another choreographer, he / she should mention it probably.
I agree, all choreographers borrow from other choreographers. Indeed TorvillandDean borrowed from Christopher Bruce of Ballet Rambert to create their version and the Duchesnay's version of Missing in 1990.
I'm just proud that T&D can still inspire young skaters today, after so many decades. I'm sure Marina Zoueva was paying homage to them in her work with her stable of icedancers in Detroit. Last season it was lovely to read an interview with Michael Parsons who said he admired past icedancers like TorvillandDean and the Duchesnays. What I find strange is when icedancers today, like Gaby Papadakis or Olivia Smart, who say they never watch past icedancers. I can't imagine not being interested in the history of the discipline you participate in. (And when Olivia was a Junior for Britain with Joe Buckland, T&D took them, along with a group of young GB skaters, to perform in a 30th Anniversary Gala of Sarajevo Olympics). I can see that Nick Buckland, an avid watcher of old videos on YouTube, has been influenced by TorvillandDean 's Six Gestures to Bach with Yo Yo Ma in 1996 in creating Bekker & Hernandez Four Seasons FD, and it's wonderful to see. 🥰
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
I agree, all choreographers borrow from other choreographers. Indeed TorvillandDean borrowed from Christopher Bruce of Ballet Rambert to create their version and the Duchesnay's version of Missing in 1990.
I'm just proud that T&D can still inspire young skaters today, after so many decades. I'm sure Marina Zoueva was paying homage to them in her work with her stable of icedancers in Detroit. Last season it was lovely to read an interview with Michael Parsons who said he admired past icedancers like TorvillandDean and the Duchesnays. What I find strange is when icedancers today, like Gaby Papadakis or Olivia Smart, who say they never watch past icedancers. I can't imagine not being interested in the history of the discipline you participate in. (And when Olivia was a Junior for Britain with Joe Buckland, T&D took them, along with a group of young GB skaters, to perform in a 30th Anniversary Gala of Sarajevo Olympics). I can see that Nick Buckland, an avid watcher of old videos on YouTube, has been influenced by TorvillandDean 's Six Gestures to Bach with Yo Yo Ma in 1996 in creating Bekker & Hernandez Four Seasons FD, and it's wonderful to see. 🥰
I think that it might be short-sighted not to watch others. Watching great skaters of past can give an idea and push to improve in things others were doing better than you.

To Nicholas Buckland -
I was watching even whole events in past or at least two best groups. I remember myself with eyes sparkling when a video tape with Stars On Ice Tour from 2000s arrived. If Nicholas Buckland has the same passion until today, I can only have soft spot for him.

As to classical music in Juniors, I am not a big fan if this. Usually skaters want to prove they are mature enough using this kind of music....and they usually prove....that classical music is out of reach at the moment for them, they miss the depth in presentation. I have the same feeling for Phebe (did her parents liked Friends?) & James. Yes, choreography is nice, even trying to concentrate on details, I like it, but the couple is immature for such kind of music yet. It would be interesting to see them skating the piece three years later.

I worry La Rhumba that we run away from original topic a little bit (JGP in Egna). To get back on track - I am glad that ISU kept Dance Pattern Elements in Juniors at least. I miss it a lot in Seniors.
 
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