2022 Olympic Team Event discussion and predictions

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
wow.

would you say the same about gymnastics?

Yes.
I don't remember where i said that but i said once that artistic gymnastics team event had more legitimacy because of how old those competitions were and the fact that it was the only events for women before the creation of individual events.

But nah. No matter how old it is, a team event in most of non team sports isn't necessary imo and unfair. Many team events were created these last years at olympics. If it isn't for more show, i don't understand why it was done.
 

AshWagsFan

Edges for days.
Final Flight
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Country
United-States
I would love to see the Team Event have more of a nuance to it. Perhaps we could not only have competition amongst all the disciplines combined, but we could also have competition among the individual disciplines.

Example: Top 10 Ladies Nations in World Compete

RULES:
1) Any team may use their individual event alternate for the team competition
Example - Russia will most likely have 3 spots. Therefore, whoever comes in 4th at senior nationals would be allowed to compete in the team event.

2) If a federation has 4 skaters, TWO skate the SP, and the other TWO skate the FS. With three skaters and two skaters things can be switched around a bit with regards to who skates what.

3) The SP scores of the two skaters from each country are added together and averaged. Same with the FS scores. Whichever team has the highest average total score wins.

Would this be a cool concept? I could see S. Korea, Russia, Japan, Italy, and USA all potentially benefitting from an individual format like this.
 

macy

you should see her in a crown
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Yes.
I don't remember where i said that but i said once that artistic gymnastics team event had more legitimacy because of how old those competitions were and the fact that it was the only events for women before the creation of individual events.

But nah. No matter how old it is, a team event in most of non team sports isn't necessary imo and unfair. Many team events were created these last years at olympics. If it isn't for more show, i don't understand why it was done.

in gymnastics, the team event is to win a medal for your country as a whole which is actually more prized/important than the all around final where only one individual athlete can win, vs the entire team representing their country. a team winning gold means that country is the most dominant in that sport. i guess i don't get why that's illegitimate and unfair, just because you aren't pitting individual athletes against one another for medals. each athlete still contributed to the team's overall score and success or failure.

its just crazy to me other sports have this outlook on a team event as a "joke" when in sports like gymnastics, it's seen as the most important event, and its normal to refer to team event medal winners as olympic champions or medalists. i've never seen anyone say Kyla Ross or Madison Kocian are not deserving olympic champions on the basis of them both contributing on only one or two events.
 

AshWagsFan

Edges for days.
Final Flight
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Country
United-States
in gymnastics, the team event is to win a medal for your country as a whole which is actually more prized/important than the all around final where only one individual athlete can win, vs the entire team representing their country. a team winning gold means that country is the most dominant in that sport. i guess i don't get why that's illegitimate and unfair, just because you aren't pitting individual athletes against one another for medals. each athlete still contributed to the team's overall score and success or failure.

its just crazy to me other sports have this outlook on a team event as a "joke" when in sports like gymnastics, it's seen as the most important event.

Agreed! It’s like saying in track and field that the relay event is a “joke”. It absolutely is not! Everyone needs to be at the top of their game in order to win or medal.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
in gymnastics, the team event is to win a medal for your country as a whole which is actually more prized/important than the all around final where only one individual athlete can win, vs the entire team representing their country. a team winning gold means that country is the most dominant in that sport. i guess i don't get why that's illegitimate and unfair, just because you aren't pitting individual athletes against one another for medals. each athlete still contributed to the team's overall score and success or failure.

its just crazy to me other sports have this outlook on a team event as a "joke" when in sports like gymnastics, it's seen as the most important event, and its normal to refer to team event medal winners as olympic champions or medalists. i've never seen anyone say Kyla Ross or Madison Kocian are not deserving olympic champions on the basis of them both contributing on only one or two events.

Fair enough. Team event have another weight in gymnastics. It has a different history than most of team events created recently.
The word "joke" is maybe too strong but i still think that in figure skating the event isn't necessary.
I don't follow gymnastics as closely than figure skating but i would be surprised if most of fans give more importance to Simone Biles' wins in team events than in individual AA. I surely don't.
Same for Kohei. I mean he was King Kohei before getting a gold in team event.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
its just crazy to me other sports have this outlook on a team event as a "joke" when in sports like gymnastics, it's seen as the most important event, and its normal to refer to team event medal winners as olympic champions or medalists. i've never seen anyone say Kyla Ross or Madison Kocian are not deserving olympic champions on the basis of them both contributing on only one or two events.

I do think it's a little different with the figure skating event. With gymnastics, there really are strategic choices to make, as you have athletes who are a lot stronger than their teammates on certain events. With skating, it is the case that generally someone who is a good SP skater is also a good LP skater. Because of that, you have a situation in which the three federations who are virtually assured of a medal select their line-ups based on (a) who needs to have rest before their individual event and (b) what skaters do they want to give Olympic medals to. An example of the former is when the US substituted Rippon for Chen in 2018. That wasn't based on Adam's strength in the LP, but rather that the team event is less important than the one Chen wanted additional rest for. An example of the latter is when Russia substituted Alina for Evgenia. Either could have skated both segments since the ladies individual event was late in the next week, and their likely placements in each segment would have been the same. The only reason to make that substitution is that Russia wanted both of them to have Olympic medals.
 

Mathman

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
If it isn't for more show, i don't understand why it was done.

The Olympic Games is a show. All of sports is a show.

What other category could sports fall into besides Recreation & Entertainment? If you do it for fun, it's recreation. If you do it for money, it's show biz. Sports is not, after all, Fishing & Agriculture, Mining & Manufacturing, Transportation & Communications, Banking & Financial Services, or any other category of endeavor.
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
In gymnastics(/swimming/athletics), there's also a more regular practice of being socialized as a national team at non-Olympic events. Figure skaters are chosen for their respective four events based off of how strong they are compared to the other country's skaters in that discipline. With gymnastics, more attention is paid to how each member of the potential Olympic team plays off each other (e.g. who are specialists for an event versus who are good all-arounders). Certainly a federation does not pick a certain pair team for the Olympics because they will counteract a ladies skater. The team event has no bearing on who qualifies for the Olympics, so the connectivity is missing. Also at the Olympics, not even all of the "team" members in figure skating are always present at the events. I don't think I'm at the point where all team events are unfair, but there is a special artificalness to the team event in figure skating that goes beyond the fact that it is new.

And it also bothers me that skaters, for what seems like marketing purposes, sometimes do not specify that their medal is a team medal. That is generally not done in gymnastics, but gymnastics is also popular enough that the person winning the all-around medal is too well known to cause confusion. If anything, it's the event final medalists that are most obscure.
 

el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
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Joined
Mar 3, 2014
I like the Team Event. Many observers think it is good to have more skating and many observers find it a welcome addition.

I don't agree with the kvetching and moaning that the team event skaters don't have "real" medals; sometimes I think this results from thinking that their fave skaters were somehow dissed. I'm a hard-hearted Hanna on this, too bad, so sad. It happens in all the Oly team sports ETA: where athletes also compete as individuals. The fourth fastest relay runner for an Oly bronze relay team may have a time that is twelfth in the world, and the fourth fastest runner in the world may leave with no medal because their country can't field a relay team. So? :confused2:

And if a particular country's team takes the event seriously and wins, good for them :clap: That only reflects poorly on the teams that did not take it seriously, should there be any.

I've been watching skating since Janet Lynn. I am all for more skating, more of the time. Yes, it's a new event and may need to be tweaked. Tweak it, but keep it. :)
 
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drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
And it also bothers me that skaters, for what seems like marketing purposes, sometimes do not specify that their medal is a team medal. That is generally not done in gymnastics, but gymnastics is also popular enough that the person winning the all-around medal is too well known to cause confusion. If anything, it's the event final medalists that are most obscure.

I suppose a medal is a medal, no matter how you earned it. Without those team medals, we would not have seen Adam and Mirai on DWTS, and those two actually did step up and outperform expectations in the team event. So while it makes me happy to see skaters become more marketable as a result, it also bothers me that a more deserving skater like Satoko Miyahara is not an Olympic medalist merely because she's from a country without a strong dance and pair team.
 

macy

you should see her in a crown
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
I do think it's a little different with the figure skating event. With gymnastics, there really are strategic choices to make, as you have athletes who are a lot stronger than their teammates on certain events. With skating, it is the case that generally someone who is a good SP skater is also a good LP skater. Because of that, you have a situation in which the three federations who are virtually assured of a medal select their line-ups based on (a) who needs to have rest before their individual event and (b) what skaters do they want to give Olympic medals to. An example of the former is when the US substituted Rippon for Chen in 2018. That wasn't based on Adam's strength in the LP, but rather that the team event is less important than the one Chen wanted additional rest for. An example of the latter is when Russia substituted Alina for Evgenia. Either could have skated both segments since the ladies individual event was late in the next week, and their likely placements in each segment would have been the same. The only reason to make that substitution is that Russia wanted both of them to have Olympic medals.

i haven't said anything about skating yet, but i agree that's it's not a necessity and doesn't work exactly the same as a sport like gymnastics. it would be more equal if there were separate events for jumps, spins, footwork/skating skills by themselves like gymnasts have different apparatuses.

however, i still don't think it's a joke and and am not against the fact these athletes can compete in more than one event at likely their only olympics. in the end, the outcome is still the same as gymnastics- the country on top is the best overall in the sport and you earned a medal for your contribution.

i do think it would be nice if there was a way to use all skaters on an olympic team. it would suck to be the one left out of the team event and miss out on a medal.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
The fourth fastest relay runner for an Oly bronze relay team may have a time that is twelfth in the world, and the fourth fastest runner may leave with no medal because their country can't field a relay team. So?

That's a good point. But even then, you have performances that get medals that are really akin to dropping the baton, and the only reason that can happen is because there are only a handful of countries that can compete reasonably well in all four segments. I still think allowing countries to drop the lowest placement is the best way to make the event more competitive.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
The Olympic Games is a show. All of sports is a show.

What other category could sports fall into besides Recreation & Entertainment? If you do it for fun, it's recreation. If you do it for money, it's show biz. Sports is not, after all, Fishing & Agriculture, Mining & Manufacturing, Transportation & Communications, Banking & Financial Services, or any other category of endeavor.

I guess i prefer shows which don't give medals too easily.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
however, i still don't think it's a joke and and am not against the fact these athletes can compete in more than one event at likely their only olympics.

It's not a joke, and I do like the skaters having more competitive opportunities. It's just that the way the event is set up, the "victory" is getting selected to participate if you were from CAN/RUS/USA the last two Olympics, because you were almost assured of a medal. Sure, a team could lose a medal if many people bomb, but with eight programs your end result is likely to not deviate much from expectation.
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
I suppose a medal is a medal, no matter how you earned it. Without those team medals, we would not have seen Adam and Mirai on DWTS, and those two actually did step up and outperform expectations in the team event. So while it makes me happy to see skaters become more marketable as a result, it also bothers me that a more deserving skater like Satoko Miyahara is not an Olympic medalist merely because she's from a country without a strong dance and pair team.

I don't think me saying that skaters shouldn't trade on the newness/obscurity of the team event by not specifying which event they earned it in means that it isn't rightfully an Olympic medal that they earned. I can accept there's some semantics to this that some might find small, but it's a sticking point for me personally. If skaters weren't able to get opportunities simply because they called themselves as an Olympic gold/silver/bronze medalist in the team event as opposed to an Olympic gold/silver/bronze figure skating medalist, then that to me is a failure of the federation and the ISU for not marketing the event better.

And I agree, it's been Japan and Italy that have made me the saddest watching the team event.
 

vesperalvioletta

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
Country
United-States
INteresting but they would need to improve a lot in pairs and dance. And a team like Canada which is struggling continue to dive. Though other than ladies they have hope. The poor Canadian women what a disaster. unless Gabby regains her form they are in so much trouble. The men are interesting. Keegan would appear to be their best hope but he is most likely to retire before the olympics due to age and life. That leaves you Nam who has never developed as fast or as well - quads and speed and power, Roman and Gogolov whose great hope has come crashing to an end. He might be like Nam but then again Nam has not regained his Jr world status or even no. 5 in the world senior. All it takes is a few slip ups or good skates and who knows?

I don't think the Georgians are in any danger of medaling, but I think they definitely have a decent shot at making it into the event.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
I suppose a medal is a medal, no matter how you earned it. Without those team medals, we would not have seen Adam and Mirai on DWTS, and those two actually did step up and outperform expectations in the team event. So while it makes me happy to see skaters become more marketable as a result, it also bothers me that a more deserving skater like Satoko Miyahara is not an Olympic medalist merely because she's from a country without a strong dance and pair team.
Yes.
 

heartyxo

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 27, 2019
I hope the Team Event encourages federations to attempt to develop their program more and be more balanced in every discipline. I think we can see it progressing in countries like China, and Japan to an extent.

Still, the only two well rounded countries right now are Russia and USA (with Canada losing lots of their depth after 2018). I hope that changes in the future.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
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Jan 5, 2019
in gymnastics, the team event is to win a medal for your country as a whole which is actually more prized/important than the all around final where only one individual athlete can win, vs the entire team representing their country. a team winning gold means that country is the most dominant in that sport. i guess i don't get why that's illegitimate and unfair, just because you aren't pitting individual athletes against one another for medals. each athlete still contributed to the team's overall score and success or failure.

its just crazy to me other sports have this outlook on a team event as a "joke" when in sports like gymnastics, it's seen as the most important event, and its normal to refer to team event medal winners as olympic champions or medalists. i've never seen anyone say Kyla Ross or Madison Kocian are not deserving olympic champions on the basis of them both contributing on only one or two events.

Fully agreed here.

The London 2012 and Rio 2016 Team Events and both MAG and WAG were nail biters in the extreme. MAG especially, as the landing of the final routine is often the decider over which colour your team medal will be. USA in WAG had such a lead in 2012 and 2016 over the other teams they could still have won with two or even three falls (which obviously didn't happen).

This is the prime event where national pride is at stake, hence it is always highly contested between the superpowers: USA, Russia, China, Romania (once) in WAG and China, Japan, Russia and USA in MAG.

The national championships or selection competitions (when these are actually used to determine the teams (and not some backroom politics/bribery) are more feared by the gymnasts than the actual Games.

All Around finals are for individual glory of both gymnast and his/her coaching team.

Event Finals are often a disappointing splat fest in WAG, most athletes are worn out and psychologically tired after Team and All Around Finals, and one often witness 'suicide attempts' at elements the gymnast isn't really confident in. Male gymnast generally provide for a good Event Finals.

Worth noting is, that with the current format and rules, the Qualifications are actually the more important event, if you mess up here, no Teams, All Around or Event finals.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Event Finals are often a disappointing splat fest in WAG, most athletes are worn out and psychologically tired after Team and All Around Finals, and one often witness 'suicide attempts' at elements the gymnast isn't really confident in. Male gymnast generally provide for a good Event Finals.
.
Maybe there should be only AA like in rythmic gymnastics then. I wonder why artistic gymnast get more occasions to win medals than rythmic gymnasts at olympics. A good AA gymnast coming from a strong country can have 6 medals in WAG while a rythmic gymnast only one.
 
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