2022 Olympic Team Event discussion and predictions

lyrichord

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 13, 2014
But, in general, I'm pretty wary about using placements to decide these things. What do people think about using a scoring range instead? Like for example, a Ladies SP could be awarded 1 team point for their performance scoring 40 points, and then an additional 1 team point for every 3 points more above that mark. This would make it so the team scoring is valuing each performance itself, providing incentive for people to always skate as well as possible, and remove the issue of having a big disparity in rankings for performances that are bunched together in quality.
I agree the placements method isn’t good for competition, and it’s one of the main reasons that the team event isn’t taken seriously, as well as top skaters declining to participate to focus on individual events. Is there any other team Olympic sport that uses placements rather than raw score or time values? I’ve seen quite a few SPs where the difference between third and eighth was minuscule by points but by placements it would be a disaster. Maybe a normalized across disciplines version of points? Uno placing so far ahead of the men’s SP field in Pyeongchang should have been worth more to his team rather than rendered mostly irrelevant due to placements. It should be like a relay where a strong performer can power his/her team with a huge advantage even with some weaker links instead of lol it doesn’t matter. If they scored by points and you could offset a lack of strong performers in other disciplines (Hanyu/Uno/Kihira potentially building a huge number of points to compensate for Japan’s lack of depth in dance and pairs would be pretty interesting imo), more top skaters might participate instead treating it as practice run or opting out altogether because the results are a foregone conclusion.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Hmm, why should the SP and LP be worth the same? That goes against everything of what these programs are. Also important, the SP actually tends to be worth far more right now, because of less people competing in the LP.

One reason might be because the ISU knows that, when the assignments are split, the better men and pairs prefer to skate the SP because it gives them more rest before their main event. Having the LP count for more means that countries competing for medals will need to have their strong skaters perform in that segment instead.
 

Ella5555

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 14, 2018
As mentioned by a previous poster, I would love to see the team event after the individual medals have been awarded. I think it would mean greater participation by those eligible - plus it probably would be a much more relaxed, fun event (with the stress of the individual events behind them). Also, it could mean redemption for those skaters that did not perform well earlier. If there is just one thing I could change about the team event, this would be it.
 

TallyT

Here for the High Lord of Extra
Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Country
Australia
I think it would mean greater participation by those eligible - plus it probably would be a much more relaxed, fun event (with the stress of the individual events behind them).

I'm not sure that the IOC really would look approvingly on any event being a 'fun, relaxed' one... they are all supposed to be taken Very Seriously :laugh:

I know what you mean, however, but I actually think this would further erode its status by making it a bit of an afterthought (after the Main Event is done and dusted). Having it beforehand at least gives it the feel of an opening volley.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Michael Phelps has 23 Olympic gold medals. Yuzuru Hanyu only two.

Yes. But these are are two dramatically different sports.
RG and AG are similar. At worlds you have a Dina Averina who can go home with 5-6 medals while she can win only one at olympics.
Mustafiya is seen as a legend because of all her olys medals and is oly champion in some apparatus while she never won an AA. Kudrytsaeva who beat Mamun left and right during 3 years in AA can't be called olympic champion because she had only one chance and did a mistake at the worst moment. If there was a final by apparatus she could have won one at ball at least.
This is kinda unfair imo since both sports have the same number of apparatus and events at worlds.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
Synchro, a different discipline, not accepted at olympics. But a "team" event with the same skaters than in individual events is seen as better idea.....
I would have been glad to see more show, more skating with synchro. There are real teams in synchro at least.

How many times must this be explained?

The IOC does not want to increase the size of the Olympics. The team event was allowed because, at maximum, it would allow 10 extra athletes.

Adding synchro would add 120 extra athletes. To say nothing of the additional coaches, team leaders, officials, judges. It would add more people than the whole other four disciplines combined.

Synchro will never, ever be added to the Olympics - and nor should it. Unless you're advocating kicking another sport out.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I'm not sure that the IOC really would look approvingly on any event being a 'fun, relaxed' one... they are all supposed to be taken Very Seriously :laugh:

I know what you mean, however, but I actually think this would further erode its status by making it a bit of an afterthought (after the Main Event is done and dusted). Having it beforehand at least gives it the feel of an opening volley.

Ahem -- I think the World Team Trophy has something to say about that! :laugh:

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/wp-c...1941989-e1554992807919.jpg?w=610&h=343&crop=1
 

b-man

Final Flight
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Maybe there should be only AA like in rythmic gymnastics then. I wonder why artistic gymnast get more occasions to win medals than rythmic gymnasts at olympics. A good AA gymnast coming from a strong country can have 6 medals in WAG while a rythmic gymnast only one.

I don't begrudge skaters or gymnasts having an opportunity to win a few medals. Swimmers and runners have had that opportunity for decades, competing, for example, in different distances, different disciplines (for example freestyle + butterfly), plus individually and in relays at varying distances. You are aware that Michael Phelps has 28 Olympic medals?
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
I don't begrudge skaters or gymnasts having an opportunity to win a few medals. Swimmers and runners have had that opportunity for decades, competing, for example, in different distances, different disciplines (for example freestyle + butterfly), plus individually and in relays at varying distances. You are aware that Michael Phelps has 28 Olympic medals?
??? Why this last question?

I don't begrudge WAG having an opportunity to win a few medals. I was wondering why it's not the same in RG. If i should begrudge i would dot it because rythmic gymnast don't have many opportunities to win medals.


"Maybe there should be only AA like in rythmic gymnastics then." Was in response to poster saying that WAG apparatus finals are usually a disappointing splat fest because athletes are tired after team and AA finals. In order to not have splat fests maybe there should be only one event like in RG.
 

b-man

Final Flight
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
??? Why this last question?

I don't begrudge WAG having an opportunity to win a few medals. I was wondering why it's not the same in RG. If i should begrudge i would dot it because rythmic gymnast don't have many opportunities to win medals.


"Maybe there should be only AA like in rythmic gymnastics then." Was in response to poster saying that WAG apparatus finals are usually a disappointing splat fest because athletes are tired after team and AA finals. In order to not have splat fests maybe there should be only one event like in RG.

I don't follow rhythmic gymnastics, its not televised much in the US, where WAG is always a featured highly anticipated event. I would like to see more RG broadcast. I don't oppose more medal opportunities for RG, but would oppose reducing medal oppotunities for artistic gymnasts or for team skating.
 

macy

you should see her in a crown
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
i didn't know there weren't event finals in RG at the olympics...a bit bizarre because they hold them at the world championships. maybe it's a popularity issue? RG isn't as popular as AG, so maybe they just don't want to spend the money on it if it won't get many views?
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Many decisions on which sports are at the Olympics (and what time they occur) are based off of popularity and ratings. We're veering off topic probably, but I hope that the documentary on Mamun is a big step towards growing interest in rhythmic gymnastics. It's a real shame that there aren't event medals. It puts way too much pressure on the AA competition.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Hmm, why should the SP and LP be worth the same? That goes against everything of what these programs are. Also important, the SP actually tends to be worth far more right now, because of less people competing in the LP.

Right now if Skater A finishes 1st in the SP and Skater B finishes 10th (and let's say this skater/pair is clearly the weakest in their field and has no hope of placing better), then it's 10 points awarded to Skater A, and 1 point to Skater B, so 9 points more and 10x the amount of points in total for Skater A. In the LP, when Skater B predictably is dead last, that's just 5th place and they get 6 points. So now Skater A is only receiving 4 points more and 1.66x the amount of points in total...that's quite a massive disparity.

If there's only going to be 5 competitors doing the LP, then I think it should definitely be a full 2 point differential awarded in the LP (so 2 points for last place, and 10 points for 1st place...and that's still a 1 point smaller differential than the SP gap). If a base of 8 skaters are competing, and additionally the added idea of allowing countries to double-up in disciplines, then I would say 1.5 point differentials would be good.

But, in general, I'm pretty wary about using placements to decide these things. What do people think about using a scoring range instead? Like for example, a Ladies SP could be awarded 1 team point for their performance scoring 40 points, and then an additional 1 team point for every 3 points more above that mark. This would make it so the team scoring is valuing each performance itself, providing incentive for people to always skate as well as possible, and remove the issue of having a big disparity in rankings for performances that are bunched together in quality.
I think SP is actually the most important segment since it's a qualifying round and allow team to rework their strategy for the free. That's probably why it worth more and that the strongest skaters compete in SP (other than it allows more rest). The large gap between 1st and last shows accuratly the difference of skating level imo. Because there are team which don't really have strong skaters or just 1-2 like South Korea at last olys. 9 points between Tarasova/Morozov and the South Korean pair feels right imo.
In LP it's supposed to be strongest teams against each others so skaters from more or less the same level. So i don't see the issue with a smaller gap between the skaters.
Anyway, there is less gap in LP just because there is less teams. It's one point between placements like in SP and usually almost all the 5 finalists have the first 5 places in SP, so not many difference.

Scores instead of placements is a door open for more overscoring but i think too that it's a better system. Sometimes 3 skaters can be in the same point so if there is 0,23 between the 1st and 3rd i don't think there should be 2 points between them.
 

TallyT

Here for the High Lord of Extra
Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Country
Australia
I agree the placements method isn’t good for competition, and it’s one of the main reasons that the team event isn’t taken seriously, as well as top skaters declining to participate to focus on individual events.

Actually it occurred to me... has anyone (except, as we assume, Yuzuru and then on overwhelmingly justified medical grounds) actually declined to do the team event per se? They may not want to do both segments - and as yume says, there are solid grounds for the strongest skater in the discipline to go then - but if there's a chance of a medal, they all seem to be in it.

And why not? It may be a bit of a Clayton's medal (this may change over the years, but that's how it is now) but it's something for the resume.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Actually it occurred to me... has anyone (except, as we assume, Yuzuru and then on overwhelmingly justified medical grounds) actually declined to do the team event per se?

I think skaters feel it is advantageous to get a run-through of a program on Olympic ice before their more important event, so that might be why few skaters decline even when they aren't in the hunt for team medals.
 

Mathman

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think skaters feel it is advantageous to get a run-through of a program on Olympic ice before their more important event, so that might be why few skaters decline even when they aren't in the hunt for team medals.

Good point.

I think that there is a more important reason, though. Skating -- that's what they do. Representing their country -- that's what they do. I think it would be very unusual for any Olympic athlete to tell his country. "Go to hell, -- this competition, it's just not my thing. I will sulk in my tent instead."
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
I think skaters feel it is advantageous to get a run-through of a program on Olympic ice before their more important event, so that might be why few skaters decline even when they aren't in the hunt for team medals.

I always wondered about that with the Shibutanis doing both segments of dance in 2018 because it undeniably helped them. Still, it seemed like Hubbell/Donohue should've had one of those spots (of course then that would've led to a debate likely about who to cut from the team between Bradie and Mirai).
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Actually it occurred to me... has anyone (except, as we assume, Yuzuru and then on overwhelmingly justified medical grounds) actually declined to do the team event per se?
P/C? Which was a big mistake imo. Strategically. They shouldn't have let V/M have all this visibility.
And that dress could have cracked open there like Yura Min's. Then would have been fixed for the most important event.
China pretty didn't care at all since both Jin and Sui/Han didn't compete.
 

heartyxo

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 27, 2019
I always wondered about that with the Shibutanis doing both segments of dance in 2018 because it undeniably helped them. Still, it seemed like Hubbell/Donohue should've had one of those spots (of course then that would've led to a debate likely about who to cut from the team between Bradie and Mirai).

The dance situation in 2018 was a whole mess. At both the GPF and Nats, Shibs won the SD, Chock and Bates won the FD and Hubbell and Donohue were second in both. So do you sub in the national champs for the FD or the team who had actually scored better in that segment? I still kinda wish that C/B had got to do the FD, but people probably would have been annoyed that the national champs hadn’t got a shot and there was also the situation with the singles. And the fact that Madison C was competing injured, which probably didn’t help their case.

If it’s true that the Shibs got the choice and chose to do both, then that makes sense. I do really want the US to split dance in the 2022 team event though so C/B and H/D can both definitely get Olympic medals, since they’ll both probably retire afterwards.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Actually it occurred to me... has anyone (except, as we assume, Yuzuru and then on overwhelmingly justified medical grounds) actually declined to do the team event per se?

Savchenko/Szolkowy, Pang/Tong, Sui/Han, Papadakis/Cizeron, Boyang Jin, and maybe Brian Joubert? Not sure which guy the French fed thought was their #1 in that last instance.

The dance situation in 2018 was a whole mess. At both the GPF and Nats, Shibs won the SD, Chock and Bates won the FD and Hubbell and Donohue were second in both. So do you sub in the national champs for the FD or the team who had actually scored better in that segment? I still kinda wish that C/B had got to do the FD, but people probably would have been annoyed that the national champs hadn’t got a shot and there was also the situation with the singles.

If only we could have a rule that countries should double-up in 2 disciplines for the Team event! ;)

Ideally under the "6 entries per SP/LP" setup, I would have the Shibutanis in both segments, H/D in the Short Dance, and C/B in the Free Dance. In the Ladies, Karen Chen and Bradie in the SP, just Mirai in the LP. And for the Men, just Nathan in the SP, and then Nathan again in the LP + Rippon, but I guess sitting Nathan out for Vincent Zhou, if Nathan really didn't want to do it, or if it didn't look like the medal chances were likely to change either way. Allowing more than 2 substitutions between SP and LP is fine with me.

I do find the "saving yourself for the individual LP" thing to be quite silly though. For years people had to compete a LP in the qualifying round at Worlds, which was bunched way closer together than the Olympic schedule, and those people managed to deliver the final program at full strength. Personally I would really want the chance to compete both programs on Olympic ice; I think the experience of getting it out there would be more valuable than the fear-based approach of "what if I get too tired from the Team event". I suppose certain people might be benefited by their LP seeming "fresher" or more exciting if it's unveiled in the individual event, but at the same time, if you are needed for your Team to get a medal, then you should do your job.
 
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