2022 Skate Canada Entries

[chuckm]

It is just hard to accept the fact that there are 3 USA ladies skating at Skate Canada and only 2 CAN ladies at a home event. And for some of us with long memories it is hard to also accept that Ava Marie got picked simply because she won a B event. Yet the year Osmond won Skate Canada she was never given a 2nd GP even though there were some openings.

Ava Marie Ziegler was placed on the substitute list because she won a CHALLENGE event. That's the only way she would have been GP eligible.

As I recall it, Kaetlyn won Skate Canada 2012 fresh off her 10th place finish at 2012 JW. She had placed second in the SP and lost the FS to Akiko Suzuki by nearly 5 points, but edged Suzuki by 1.09 points overall. At the time, there was grumbling about "home cooking". There was a vacancy at NHK, but it went to Mirai Nagasu.

 

[chuckm]

What I am saying is that many Canadian fans would prefer watching Kaiya, ready or not, than an out of country skater taking a host spot... That's all. And let's be realistic : if SKAM had given some host spots to skaters from other countries, there would be a "what about giving these spots to one of our athletes" uproar as well... There probably be would be an entire thread with hundreds of posts about it...

The US has always had many qualified skaters and there has always been a long list of potential candidates for SA host pick. Furthermore, the US has always sent up and coming young skaters who perform well at Nationals to post Nationals competitions as well as to Challenge events in the fall. That's why Ziegler was sent to the Budapest Challenge event. So a scenario where the US would have to go outside to fill a host spot just wouldn't ever happen.

This season, with many Canadian seniors retired and the best juniors sent to JGP, there was a problem filling a host pick. I don't recall that happening in the past, and it probably won't ever happen again.

 

[Andrea82]

Ava Marie Ziegler was placed on the substitute list because she won a CHALLENGE event. That's the only way she would have been GP eligible.

She was 63th in the 2021/22 Seaton Best list. Just above Van Zundert and Brezinova who also got the 2nd assignment in recent weeks.

 

[4everchan]

The US has always had many qualified skaters and there has always been a long list of potential candidates for SA host pick. Furthermore, the US has always sent up and coming young skaters who perform well at Nationals to post Nationals competitions as well as to Challenge events in the fall. That's why Ziegler was sent to the Budapest Challenge event. So a scenario where the US would have to go outside to fill a host spot just wouldn't ever happen.

This season, with many Canadian seniors retired and the best juniors sent to JGP, there was a problem filling a host pick. I don't recall that happening in the past, and it probably won't ever happen again.

My question was rhetorical. Of course the USA has enough skaters... but hear this : there are enough skaters in Canada too otherwise, there would be no need for sectionals and challenge before Nationals right? Even in pairs there are Elizabeth and Daniel, Alteryd and Farand, Carignan and Pierro... and they do harder jumps than a SBS solo axel... which was something seen at SKAM. Pretending that Canadian skating doesn't have enough depth is not true, perhaps even dismissive.
End of story.

 

[4everchan]

Ava Marie Ziegler was placed on the substitute list because she won a CHALLENGE event. That's the only way she would have been GP eligible.

As I recall it, Kaetlyn won Skate Canada 2012 fresh off her 10th place finish at 2012 JW. She had placed second in the SP and lost the FS to Akiko Suzuki by nearly 5 points, but edged Suzuki by 1.09 points overall. At the time, there was grumbling about "home cooking". There was a vacancy at NHK, but it went to Mirai Nagasu.

Let's not open the home cooking can of worm since I recall our recent conversation about Knierim Fraser. Again, moving on.

 

[4everchan]

I'd like to make this post to make sure my point of view is clear, especially for those who may not have read the whole thread.

As a Canadian fan, I am simply disappointed that two of the host spots have been given to non-Canadian skaters (after the initially selected Canadian skaters w/d), while there are many aspiring skaters out there who will be looking at SCI on their livestream instead of having a chance to skate in a competition.

I hope it is not too demanding to hope that Skate Canada will readjust their policy in GP assignments in the future.

Everything else mentioned in this thread may be interesting but is definitely secondary.

 

[chuckm]

In the 2012 GP, Kaetlyn was competing in her first senior event at SC after a 10th place at 2012 JW. Akiko Suzuki was the bronze medalist at 2012 Worlds. No surprise there was grumbling about home cooking.

 

[Sackie]

Sorry but think you need to check your facts - Skate Canada 2012 was not Kaetlyn's 1st senior event. She had won Nebelhorn prior to SC where she had defeated both Sotnikova and Zhang (who actually placed 12th) and who both had 2 GP assignments.

 

[chuckm]

She was 63th in the 2021/22 Seaton Best list. Just above Van Zundert and Brezinova who also got the 2nd assignment in recent weeks.

Van Zundert and Brezinova are the top skaters in their respective countries and both were selected in the initial GP meeting. Brezinova trains in the US with her brother, which is why she would have been selected for SA and as a substitute for SC.

Ziegler was 2nd in Junior Ladies at 2022 US Nationals. In 2021, she had two JGP assignments and finished 6th at Kosice, behind 4 Russian women and a Korean. She was sent to the Budapest Challenger after finishing 4th at the 2022 Philadelphia Summer competition. According to ISU rules, winning a Challenger event automatically puts a skater on the substitute list, if they were not already there. BTW, Ziegler is #21 on the current 2022-2033 SB list with 185.83.

 

[Andrea82]

Van Zundert and Brezinova are the top skaters in their respective countries and both were selected in the initial GP meeting. Brezinova trains in the US with her brother, which is why she would have been selected for SA and as a substitute for SC.

Ziegler was 2nd in Junior Ladies at 2022 US Nationals. In 2021, she had two JGP assignments and finished 6th at Kosice, behind 4 Russian women and a Korean. She was sent to the Budapest Challenger after finishing 4th at the 2022 Philadelphia Summer competition. According to ISU rules, winning a Challenger event automatically puts a skater on the substitute list, if they were not already there. BTW, Ziegler is #21 on the current 2022-2033 SB list with 185.83.

My point was that Ziegler would have already been in the substitute list regardless of the win in Budapest because of her standing in the 2021-22 Season Best list.

 

[readernick]

My point was that Ziegler would have already been in the substitute list regardless of the win in Budapest because of her standing in the 2021-22 Season Best list.

Yes, there is nothing strange about her selection to fill a spot after Kate Wang withdrew. She was the most obvious choice due to SB and winning an event. In addition to, her training location making it easier on short notice.

The issue the Canadian posters here have is that SC didn't use their host spot. This is actually completely unrelated to the selection of Ava because they gave up this spot when the original GP competitors were announced.

 

[yesterday]

I've read this daily with growing interest.
So much has been said already.
My thought at the beginning was that Canada could be the new Sweden. But all in all, they are the old Sweden Have there never been articles about SC behaviour in this cases? Questioning why they do what they (not) do? Online in FS magazines or somewhere?
Ofc fans would not be successful just writing an e-mail to SC asking them politely about their decisions but maybe journalists could ask? Speculations are fun but this seems to be a kind of regular issue. I'm clueless.

 

[SnowWhite]

Yes, there is nothing strange about her selection to fill a spot after Kate Wang withdrew. She was the most obvious choice due to SB and winning an event. In addition to, her training location making it easier on short notice.

The issue the Canadian posters here have is that SC didn't use their host spots. This is actually completely unrelated to the selection of Ava because they gave up this spot when the original GP competitors were announced.

They actually gave up the spot when Alison Schumacher WD. Same thing for pairs – initially it was Walsh/Michaud, McIntosh/Mimar and a TBD (which went to Laurin/Ethier), but then W/M split. All host spots were initially used. But you're correct otherwise.

Personally, I'm more bothered by the women's spot not being used than the pairs spot. I don't have a problem with wanting a minimum level out of your skaters/teams before assigning them to a GP. And I think you need to be careful about sending out a team/skater that isn't ready for that level of event – it can great experience and it can also be a bad experience, especially for young skaters. But I do think they could have filled the women's spot and I wish they had. I get why people are upset for the women, especially since this goes along with not sending enough women out internationally and giving them competitive experience. It's more than just this thing.

But for pairs... I think it's more understandable. I'm sure they would have considered Proft/Nadeau, but they haven't been healthy or able to compete. With hindsight, you'd just pick Alteryd/Farand, since they scored 151 at the October Skate Ontario event. But that was less than 2 weeks ago, and clearly the decision needed to be made before that. Without counting that result, the options were Thibodeau-Mailhot/ Villeneuve (124.37 & 117.40 at domestic events this summer/fall), CarignanPierro (121.31) and Alteryd/Farand (122.99). The minimum score to be eligible for the GP in pairs is 132.65. That doesn't apply to host picks, but I think wanting a team to have at least got somewhat close to that domestically before assigning them to a GP, considering domestic scores are often more generous than international ones, is not unreasonable. I would be fine with it if SC had picked one of them, of course, but I'm not so mad about this one. And A/F have at least been given a Challenger assignment probably based on that stronger result, which is good.

As a comparison, GP minimum for women is 141.65, and even with a lot of the strongest women being unavailable due to the JGP, we would have several choices who've at least hit that domestically. So pairs and women aren't entirely the same imo.

I've read this daily with growing interest.
So much has been said already.
My thought at the beginning was that Canada could be the new Sweden. But all in all, they are the old Sweden Have there never been articles about SC behaviour in this cases? Questioning why they do what they (not) do? Online in FS magazines or somewhere?
Ofc fans would not be successful just writing an e-mail to SC asking them politely about their decisions but maybe journalists could ask? Speculations are fun but this seems to be a kind of regular issue. I'm clueless.

It's not really the same as Sweden. For Sweden, the Olympic Committee (not the federation) won't let skaters use Olympic spots that they earned if they don't meet a certain level. Skate Canada initially filled all their host spots with Canadian skaters, but when a couple WD they didn't replace them with other Canadians, likely because they didn't feel they had someone available of a high enough level. You can absolutely criticize that, as well as them not sending enough women out on the Challenger series, but it's still a different thing.

 

[yesterday]

They actually gave up the spot when Alison Schumacher WD. Same thing for pairs – initially it was Walsh/Michaud, McIntosh/Mimar and a TBD (which went to Laurin/Ethier), but then W/M split. All host spots were initially used. But you're correct otherwise.

Personally, I'm more bothered by the women's spot not being used than the pairs spot. I don't have a problem with wanting a minimum level out of your skaters/teams before assigning them to a GP. And I think you need to be careful about sending out a team/skater that isn't ready for that level of event – it can great experience and it can also be a bad experience, especially for young skaters. But I do think they could have filled the women's spot and I wish they had. I get why people are upset for the women, especially since this goes along with not sending enough women out internationally and giving them competitive experience. It's more than just this thing.

But for pairs... I think it's more understandable. I'm sure they would have considered Proft/Nadeau, but they haven't been healthy or able to compete. With hindsight, you'd just pick Alteryd/Farand, since they scored 151 at the October Skate Ontario event. But that was less than 2 weeks ago, and clearly the decision needed to be made before that. Without counting that result, the options were Thibodeau-Mailhot/ Villeneuve (124.37 & 117.40 at domestic events this summer/fall), CarignanPierro (121.31) and Alteryd/Farand (122.99). The minimum score to be eligible for the GP in pairs is 132.65. That doesn't apply to host picks, but I think wanting a team to have at least got somewhat close to that domestically before assigning them to a GP, considering domestic scores are often more generous than international ones, is not unreasonable. I would be fine with it if SC had picked one of them, of course, but I'm not so mad about this one. And A/F have at least been given a Challenger assignment probably based on that stronger result, which is good.

As a comparison, GP minimum for women is 141.65, and even with a lot of the strongest women being unavailable due to the JGP, we would have several choices who've at least hit that domestically. So pairs and women aren't entirely the same imo.


It's not really the same as Sweden. For Sweden, the Olympic Committee (not the federation) won't let skaters use Olympic spots that they earned if they don't meet a certain level. Skate Canada initially filled all their host spots with Canadian skaters, but when a couple WD they didn't replace them with other Canadians, likely because they didn't feel they had someone available of a high enough level. You can absolutely criticize that, as well as them not sending enough women out on the Challenger series, but it's still a different thing.

I apologize, it was mot meant to be a 100% accurate comparison, do not read this part it too literal

 

[SnowWhite]

I apologize, it was mot meant to be a 100% accurate comparison, do not read this part it too literal

I do get what you mean

 

[4everchan]

Yes, there is nothing strange about her selection to fill a spot after Kate Wang withdrew. She was the most obvious choice due to SB and winning an event. In addition to, her training location making it easier on short notice.

The issue the Canadian posters here have is that SC didn't use their host spot. This is actually completely unrelated to the selection of Ava because they gave up this spot when the original GP competitors were announced.

as mentioned by @SnowWhite : the Canadian posters are not disgruntled that Ava Marie got a spot.. but that Allison's spot was not given to a Canadian from the get go.

 

[4everchan]

and @SnowWhite thank you for your eloquent post and taking the time to document it with the numbers...

i agree with pretty much everything you say... but i would add : what is scarier for a young pairs team??? skating in their backyard with other young people they know (Brooke and Ben, Loucas and Kelly Ann) or flying across the ocean to compete in an international meeting far away from home in another time zone??? Yes, the level will not be as strong.. that's for sure... but the fatigue and over-excitement due to travel and so on, may be an even greater source of distraction..

The only reason why I am also less upset about the pairs situation is that our teams are getting GPs and got JGPs... our women... not so much...

 

[4everchan]

I've read this daily with growing interest.
So much has been said already.
My thought at the beginning was that Canada could be the new Sweden. But all in all, they are the old Sweden Have there never been articles about SC behaviour in this cases? Questioning why they do what they (not) do? Online in FS magazines or somewhere?
Ofc fans would not be successful just writing an e-mail to SC asking them politely about their decisions but maybe journalists could ask? Speculations are fun but this seems to be a kind of regular issue. I'm clueless.

It's hard to tell and evaluate... especially with how disruptive was the pandemic... People forget that Canadian skaters didn't train for longer periods of time than most... and that our Nationals were simply canceled... At one point, the only athlete able to compete was Keegan because he could travel... (as based in Alaska).

But, I have to say that I have seen the federation being extremely protective with the younger athletes. For instance, Cynthia Phaneuf won senior nationals at a very young age... She had all her jumps and already good charisma and presentation. Kaiya reminds me a bit of young Cynthia. The federation decided she was too young and green to compete at worlds that year... so they sent her to 4CC where she didn't do so well... but you know... it's hard to tell what kind of message she had received... "we are not sending you to worlds, you are not ready".. but then "go to 4CC because it's okay to mess up there"... Of course this is a what if.. but WHAT IF they had said to her, we are sending you to both 4CC (to gain experience) because we believe you need it, and then, Worlds....

Long story short... Cynthia grew taller.. MUCH taller... she had injuries... she lost some jumps... and it's only at worlds in 2010 that she really got to peak and get 5th.... many thought she could have been 3rd that year but it was years after her first national title... and inches taller.. WHAT IF her best shot was really back then, as a young girl before puberty ?

This sort of questioning will not happen ever again with the age requirements being changed... and I appreciate this... but sometimes, I do personally feel that the Federation is over-protective. It creates two main problems..

1) it sends the message to young athletes that "they need to be protected ... " or that "they are not quite yet ready"

2) it puts a lot of pressure on the ones who are sent out.. because there are not that many of them... and of course, who's got their tech minimums if they are not sent out??? So what happens if Madeline is not feeling well ? Of Gabby still not 100% back from the car accident she had recently? Do we even have options with tech minimums??? Not if they are not sent out to events.

I was impressed with how well madeline did at the team event at the Olympics.. when she had the entire pressure the team on her shoulders and managed to qualify Canada for the LPs.... but then... it was hard for her to maintain her level in the individual event and at worlds... she barely missed the qualification for 2 spots at worlds ... so again, this year, one woman only at worlds...

So it's a chain reaction. People who think some of the Canadian fans are just disgruntled because Alison's spot went to an American are not following years of pressure applied on the women in Canada, due to lack of experience, consistency and therefore, opportunities....

I remember one year at Nationals when Lacoste and Phaneuf (who was injured) almost scored the same at Nationals... and because Canada only had the one spot for worlds, both had to fight for it at 4CC... with not so great results... and it wasn't really conclusive... both of them scored about the same kind of low score... A lot of pressure put on them...

So this is why it gets annoying... However, it's not the Canadian Olympic Committee not sending athletes out at the games.. it's the Federation being somewhat stingy and/or overprotective.

 

[readernick]

They actually gave up the spot when Alison Schumacher WD.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought they didn’t name anyone when participants were announced.

 

[lariko]

Personally, as someone travelling across the country to see the event live, I am super-happy they have a full roster, but I would have preferred to see Shiryaeva given the host spot, impossible or not.