2022 U.S. Nationals: Men's Short Program | Page 48 | Golden Skate

2022 U.S. Nationals: Men's Short Program

dalenofff

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 8, 2017
Whoa... Vincent finished 25th at 2021 Worlds?

Like he missed out on the freeskate?

And that meant that the US men had to earn a 3rd spot at Nebelhorn because of him?

I can't recall if anyone has ever mentioned that before, or talked about it as of late 🤔.... please do refresh our collective memories. :laugh:
and you are correct but then he won Nebelhorn and secure the third spot.. why didn't you finish the whole thing? in the end US got 3 spots. He cause it and he fix it. enough said.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
My understanding is that if he is named as an alternate to the Olympics he will not go to 4CCs. ...

It is not mutually exclusive to be an alternate to the Olympics and to go to Four Continents.

For 2022, USFS already has named Gabbie Izzo as third alternate to the Olympics and also has given her a Four Continents slot.

In 2018, Jason and Max were named as alternates for the Olympics -- plus they both went to Four Continents.

... I’m sure he can go to Junior Worlds, but if they are before the Olympics he may not be able to go to those either. ...

Junior Worlds are after the Olympics.
 
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moonkat

Final Flight
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Dec 13, 2013
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It's hard to imagine 4 landed quads would not give a skater an Olympic ticket, but here we are
( I've said something similar for Sasha)
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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Jan 1, 2013
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Australia
The Olympic alternates are not automatically precluded from going to 4CC, but I suspect this year may be different. First, anyone going to 4CC will be leaving for Tallinn next week, or maybe even later this week, to bubble up. Second, with the COVID insanity, the Olympic alternates have a higher chance of being called in than usual.
 

Hyena

Tous les whiskys
Medalist
Joined
Jan 9, 2014
Can Ilia go to 4CC or Junior Worlds?

He can start by winning one or both of those events (no idea when they are held). That would send a message.

Well landing a bunch of quads tomorrow would send a message too but you get the idea!
Ilia will definitely be named to the Junior World team.

I've been thinking about it and I would send him to 4CCs as well, assuming (1) he doesn't make the Olympic team outright which may or may not happen and (2) he places well enough to earn Olympic alternate. Since he doesn't have Worlds minimums, and since it's always very possible in an Olympic year that someone on the Oly team won't make it to Worlds, 4CCs would be the place to earn both the TES minimums he needs and the experience he can benefit from.
 

Jaana

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Jul 27, 2003
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Finland
I really liked Malinin' s skating and had impressive jumps, inherited from mother, I think? Malinin and Zhou became my sp-favourites...
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Ilia is a great hope for the future. However, if the jumps fail (and they definitely do a lot based on his free skates this season) there isn't enough else in his skating to hold him up. If he fails a jumping pass, he might very well not make the FS. When he skated in his only senior event, he didn't even get the World minimums in the SP. The US established its selection criteria specifically to avoid putting an inconsistent skater like this on the team due to one great national performance. It is pretty terrible that all the Olympic alternates can't go to 4CC this year. He does deserve more international competition.

Jason is actually an outside shot for a medal at the Olympics. He has never finished outside the top 10 at Worlds. He medalled at his GPs. He made the GP final. He is ( not including jumps) probably the best pure skater/dancer in the men's field. He will go viral and make the people watching the Olympics fall in love with figure skating. The USFS is going to send him unless he totally bombs the FS but he doesn't seem like he's in the mood to bomb.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Sep 14, 2008
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Russia
Ilia needs to be sent if he places above Jason in the LP. He has good basics, innate performance quality, and top jumping ability.

Jason already had his turn at the Olympics and there unfortunately isn't an artistic program right now, so he doesn't have any real medal chance.

Honestly given how Chen lands his jumps, he could have added anything to the end of it. I feel like he's just trolling people who emphasize jump exit transitions

I swear, if I had Nathan's ability, after I landed my quads, I would literally grab my free foot, raise it up like a spiral, then maintaining the RBO edge do a duo of RBO-RFI-RBO brackets, into a falling leaf, and flash a + 5 with my hands to the audience/judges, just to shut people up. :laugh:

This is not accurate at all. Nathan doesn't have good flow on his landings and doesn't show any kind of exquisite control. His jumps are always grinding into the ice on the landings, because his technique rotates directly into the landings, instead of the proper jump technique that is SUPPOSED to be highly valued in this sport, of finishing the rotation in the air before landing (and also an ideal jump is supposed to start rotating fast AFTER jumping up, rather than while you are doing the takeoff).

He doesn't get great amplitude on the jumps, he just rotates fast from the moment of starting to lift off and doesn't stop until the blade is hitting the ice. Jumping smaller and being able to get the skate backward enough on the landing makes it much easier to not fall on a jump, but his technique also removes potential speed on landings, because the momentum is not transferring directly backward as the skate comes down; the body is still finishing the rotation and has to check harder during the landing.
 

sworddance21

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Ilia will definitely be named to the Junior World team.

I've been thinking about it and I would send him to 4CCs as well, assuming (1) he doesn't make the Olympic team outright which may or may not happen and (2) he places well enough to earn Olympic alternate. Since he doesn't have Worlds minimums, and since it's always very possible in an Olympic year that someone on the Oly team won't make it to Worlds, 4CCs would be the place to earn both the TES minimums he needs and the experience he can benefit from.
If you want Malinin to gain high pressure experience this makes the most sense to me. 4CCs and then World's, assuming he gets the tech minimum.
 

jenaj

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Aug 17, 2003
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United-States
and you are correct but then he won Nebelhorn and secure the third spot.. why didn't you finish the whole thing? in the end US got 3 spots. He cause it and he fix it. enough said.
Anyone remember when Lu Chen didn’t make the cut at 1997 World’s? She went on to win bronze at the 1998 Olympics.
 

lariko

Medalist
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Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
It's hard to imagine 4 landed quads would not give a skater an Olympic ticket, but here we are
( I've said something similar for Sasha)
I hope it wouldn’t be the case…
Ilia is a great hope for the future. However, if the jumps fail (and they definitely do a lot based on his free skates this season) there isn't enough else in his skating to hold him up. If he fails a jumping pass, he might very well not make the FS. When he skated in his only senior event, he didn't even get the World minimums in the SP. The US established its selection criteria specifically to avoid putting an inconsistent skater like this on the team due to one great national performance. It is pretty terrible that all the Olympic alternates can't go to 4CC this year. He does deserve more international competition.

Jason is actually an outside shot for a medal at the Olympics. He has never finished outside the top 10 at Worlds. He medalled at his GPs. He made the GP final. He is ( not including jumps) probably the best pure skater/dancer in the men's field. He will go viral and make the people watching the Olympics fall in love with figure skating. The USFS is going to send him unless he totally bombs the FS but he doesn't seem like he's in the mood to bomb.
You had already expressed similar concern about another skater that they might fall on a jumping pass and not make it into FS. Since it’s literally everyone including Chen, who could fall in SP… this logic is flawed and can be directed at, literally, everyone.

At least Malinin has availability of 4CC and JWC if those tournaments are not cancelled. However, if USFS should start preferring Malinin to Brown for major competitions, the earlier they do so, the better, given that the BoW doesn’t happen on paper, it happens when a skater competes in major competitions. If they keep Malinin back for too long they might end up with (eventually) used-up Brown and miss Malinin’s best before or discourage him.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Historically the US has gone with newly eligible skaters with strong potential to be world and Olympic medals for experience and that decision has paid of for them.

They sent Meisner she ended up world champion a few months later. Vincent was sixth at the Olympics and on the world podium.

Technically Illia is stronger than both of those.

Jason has an outside shot at an Olympic medal only if a lot of people skate very poorly.

And heck with that argument ilia could jump his way to one too.

The Olympics are better than worlds there are no spots on the line

If you have a new senior who has the talent to be a world or Olympic medalist it makes sense to send them over a more established senior skater who has shown time and time again they aren’t competitive for a world or Olympic medal.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
My understanding is that if he is named as an alternate to the Olympics he will not go to 4CCs. I’m sure he can go to Junior Worlds, but if they are before the Olympics he may not be able to go to those either. He doesn’t have the tech minimums to go to Senior Worlds, though I’m sure he could get them.
If he doesn't have tech mins for Sr Worlds, he doesn't have tech mins for Olys.
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Historically the US has gone with newly eligible skaters with strong potential to be world and Olympic medals for experience and that decision has paid of for them.

They sent Meisner she ended up world champion a few months later. Vincent was sixth at the Olympics and on the world podium.

Technically Illia is stronger than both of those.

Jason has an outside shot at an Olympic medal only if a lot of people skate very poorly.

And heck with that argument ilia could jump his way to one too.

The Olympics are better than worlds there are no spots on the line

If you have a new senior who has the talent to be a world or Olympic medalist it makes sense to send them over a more established senior skater who has shown time and time again they aren’t competitive for a world or Olympic medal.
The US has already established clear BOW criteria. llia doesn't meet those criteria. He literally can't overcome Jason's lead in the criteria unless Jason totally falls apart in the FS. You can have any opinion of who you believe should be sent but if the US doesn't send Jason they won't be following their own rules that they set out prior to this season unless, as mentioned, Jason has a terrible FS. If Jason falls apart in the LP, Ilya should and probably will be sent to the Olympics.

At least Malinin has availability of 4CC and JWC if those tournaments are not cancelled. However, if USFS should start preferring Malinin to Brown for major competitions, the earlier they do so, the better, given that the BoW doesn’t happen on paper, it happens when a skater competes in major competitions. If they keep Malinin back for too long they might end up with (eventually) used-up Brown and miss Malinin’s best before or discourage him.
Not making the FS is a concern in these two cases particularly, not because of some imaginary situation that could happen to anyone, ( it could as you mentioned) but because of their SP scores this year. The cut-off score for the LP last Olympics was around 75 points. I think it will likely be over 80 this time. (at least I hope it will if the competition isn't horrible) Mozalev scored 68,72, and 80 in SP this year. Malinin scored 67 in his senior international SP. None of these scores are likely to make the LP at the Olympics. Jason Brown has had only one SP score under 90 in the last two years. (a 89) It is impossible to predict what will happen at any given event but federations try to make the best guess of who they believe will bring the best results and the lowest risk. Jason has a far higher floor than Malinin. I'm not sure there is any evidence that Malinin has a higher ceiling than Jason since his highest score ever internationally is 245 points while Jason's is 274 points. Mozalev vs. Semenenko is a much harder call since I think it is clear that Mozalev has a higher ceiling but also a lower floor. That decision could have gone either way. But, Jason has a lower floor and a higher ceiling based on previous scores. What's the argument for Ilya? Giving him experience? Yes, sure. He should get experience and I am sure he will be given opportunities by the USFS who has given all the junior turned senior skaters international assignments. Jason is still in the top 3 US men, not because the others haven't had opportunities, but because they haven't delivered when it mattered. Ilya was already given a senior assignment this year. He didn't deliver. I see him being named as an alternate to the Olympic team. With that in mind, he won't be sent to 4CC because the alternates aren't being assigned to 4CC this year due to COVID-19 safety concerns. He doesn't have the minimums for Worlds. But, I am sure he will go to JWs.
If he doesn't have tech mins for Sr Worlds, he doesn't have tech mins for Olys.
The tech mins for the Olympics are lower. He has them.
 
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jcmerman

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 10, 2011
Hey quick question, whatever happened to Eric Sjoberg? I thought he would be competing here? I was really looking forward to seeing him skate as I became a fan of his last year during nationals. Any word? Sorry if this is in the wrong place to discuss this.
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Hey quick question, whatever happened to Eric Sjoberg? I thought he would be competing here? I was really looking forward to seeing him skate as I became a fan of his last year during nationals. Any word? Sorry if this is in the wrong place to discuss this.
He withdrew at the last moment, as did Tomoki. I was also looking forward to seeing both of them. I don't know the reason. I would assume COVID or injury :(
 

Holy Headband

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Can Ilia go to 4CC or Junior Worlds?

He can start by winning one or both of those events (no idea when they are held). That would send a message.

Well landing a bunch of quads tomorrow would send a message too but you get the idea!
Junior Worlds will take place in March and Malinin, if he skates cleanly, will be competing for bronze against the likes of Tatsuya Tsuboi, Artem Kovalev and (in my opinion) Arlet Levandi because Shun Sato and Kao Miura will be the favourites for gold and silver even with mistakes.

People are really putting the cart before the horse after seeing one (1) clean SP from a junior skater.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Mar 14, 2007
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Wasn’t he like 15 then? He has some pretty high tech content here and a very strong free at a JGPF event.
He was 15. He won both his JGP events this year, but they were junior events. He made the JGPF. All 3 of the top US men made the Senior GPF this year. The total of his senior experience for USFS to consider is 5th 2020 Skate America and 3rd at Cup of Austria with total score 222.55.

In contrast, by mean score this season Nathan is first Internationally, Vincent 4th and Jason 6th. USFS would be out of their minds to send him and I’m pretty confident that they won’t.

I’m not anti Ilia, I think he’s a promising young skater with a bright future.
 
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