2023 NHK Trophy Free Dance | Page 12 | Golden Skate

2023 NHK Trophy Free Dance

Rebecca Moose

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 6, 2023
Country
United-States
Lilah has gotten better but is below par. The Italians are the best in the world at using their blades. It's just really not defensible.
so what you're saying here is that skating skills is the only criteria. sorry hon, but there are two other components, called PRESENTATION and COMPOSITION.

Skating skills are important, but they're not the be all end all. The Italians FD is stale, like @Carol1's cupcakes
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
so what you're saying here is that skating skills is the only criteria. sorry hon, but there are two other components, called PRESENTATION and COMPOSITION.

Skating skills are important, but they're not the be all end all. The Italians FD is stale, like @Carol1's cupcakes
that's correct for PCS but skating skills and blade mastery in ice dance is not just about choreography/program components it's about clean execution of turns, deep edges, etc. So it should also apply to GOE and levels
 
Last edited:

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
that's correct for PCS but skating skills and blade mastery in ice dance is not just about choreography/program components it's about clean execution of turns, deep edges, etc. So it should also apply to GOE and levels
I also want to add to this, that to me skating skills dictates the other two categories to an extent. I'm sure many people can dance on the spot if they're not focused on skating skills - without skating skills, the other two categories are a lot easier to hit (I mean, basically every show skater can hit them, reguardless of their level of skating skills), the difficulty is integrating them WITH the skating skills.
 

labgoat

On special assignment for work, see you in August
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Country
United-States
Wow just checking in on break - what a wild ride so far. Yes I peeked. Can’t wait to watch and read all your comments later
 

Rebecca Moose

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 6, 2023
Country
United-States
that's correct for PCS but skating skills and blade mastery in ice dance is not just about choreography/program components it's about clean execution of turns, deep edges, etc. So it should also apply to GOE and levels
sure, but ya'll are acting like Guignard/Fabri are the second coming of Papadakis/Cizeron or Virtue/Moir when it comes to skating skills. sorry to say, that's decidedly not the case. If G/F desire to maintain their second-ranked position at Worlds, they need to come up with more innovative material than the generic dreck they're showing this season. yes, they have very good basics and technic, but it's nothing jaw-dropping, and this is an old team that has been around for over a decade and has failed to establish any identity outside of being short, safe, and boring.

I don't mean to be cruel towards these two, and I'm sure they're lovely people, but I have to call 'em as I see 'em. 🫎
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
I don't usually like programs/gala programs that I think of as gimmicky. Examples: Javi exercise exhibition #, Green/Parsons doll dance, Chock/Bates sunblock number etc, etc. I can watch them once, but in an exhibition I skip them the second/third/etc time they come around.

So it's not surprising that I don't like Rocky.

Why then do I love Corpse Bride, and loved Pink Panther last year? And loved the "other" Finns sailor program last year? There seems to be some fine line between character-based skates and gimmick based ones. I can't define it, but I know which is which when I see them.
I am on the same page. There is good cheese and then, there is Velveeta :)
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
sure, but ya'll are acting like Guignard/Fabri are the second coming of Papadakis/Cizeron or Virtue/Moir when it comes to skating skills. sorry to say, that's decidedly not the case.
I don't think anyone is saying that GF are on the same level as P/C and/or V/M. Nobody is, in the current crop of ice dancers. I am not a fan of the Italians. Far from there. However, as stated earlier, it's a bit worrisome, in my opinion, when ice dance becomes more about histrionics than ice dancing. The rise of FG is quite exaggerated. Lewis is fine but he is NOT that great. Lilah is catching up but she has a stiff back and very poor extension. Her twizzles in the opposite direction are often on a tilt. They have fun programs but they seem to be only able to skate one style of program. It gets old very quickly. I could live with the skipping rope twizzle transition which is fun, if there weren't push-ups, boxing punches and butt wiggling by the judges. If that's the only thing they have to offer, with some good and acrobatic lifts, then it says a lot about what they are actually able to put on the ice. At this point, they have the second highest FD score of all teams. I cannot agree with that.
I don't even care about the results of this competition that much. I care simply about the direction of ice dance. If it's going to become gala numbers, I will lose interest. If the judges favour this style of dancing, there will be less and less Papadakis Cizeron and Virtue Moir types of athletes and more and more Fear and Gibson types of performers. If that's what you are wishing for then fair enough.
 
Last edited:

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
sure, but ya'll are acting like Guignard/Fabri are the second coming of Papadakis/Cizeron or Virtue/Moir when it comes to skating skills. sorry to say, that's decidedly not the case. If G/F desire to maintain their second-ranked position at Worlds, they need to come up with more innovative material than the generic dreck they're showing this season. yes, they have very good basics and technic, but it's nothing jaw-dropping, and this is an old team that has been around for over a decade and has failed to establish any identity outside of being short, safe, and boring.

I don't mean to be cruel towards these two, and I'm sure they're lovely people, but I have to call 'em as I see 'em. 🫎
Papadakis/Cizeron are known for having the same style FD every year without innovation, simplistic lifts and transitions etc. They are also known for being the best skaters, perhaps ever. P/C are the greatest the sport has to offer, and that comes to doing everything perfectly.

Charlene and Marco aren't P/C level. But what they do, competitive to everybody else in the competition at this stage, is at a superior level. Charlene and Marco have very innovative lifts, yes their programs follow same style, but it's not like they present a photocopy every year. They have a very well established identity: technical excellence. Yes, they aren't as exciting to watch as piper and Paul for example, but they display mastery of edges, kneebend, extension and stroking that no other top team does to the same quality right now.

Anyways, the judges made it clear what they want in ice dance. The ISU already made it clear when they removed the pattern dance, but since 2018 this sport has been going in a direction where gimmicks have been made mandatory. Look at P/Cs programs in 2018 vs 2022. In 2018 they were much better than 2022 imo, and that comes down to the rules.

Now the judges make it clear on the scoreboard what they want. Skating skills are an afterthought.
 

Rebecca Moose

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 6, 2023
Country
United-States
Now the judges make it clear on the scoreboard what they want.
they don't want to be put to sleep, which is what the G/F free dance does!

I understand the more "gala" style of F/G isn't to everyone's liking, and that's totally fine. Me? I just don't want to fall asleep during the FD! However, I'm seeing all the blame being placed on the judges and on Fear/Gibson, and NONE being placed on Guignard/Fabri for such a mediocre free dance. They're world silver medalists, for crying out loud! IF they had decent material, they wouldn't be in this position!
 

amanda b

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 10, 2022
I loved G/F last year - their free dance is still etched in my memory. It was exciting, used some edgy music and had a real and distinctive theme which they carried out to perfection. Until then I had always found their programmes (and costumes) seriously dull. This year they have returned to type - I love their technical skill, and like the music, but find it slightly boring.

Lilah and Lewis - not keen on the music but presentation, Wow.
 

figureskatingandrainbows

It's Oka ShinnosuSLAY Season!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 8, 2020
Country
Olympic
I feel like we are currently experiencing an almost over-richness in ice dance. There are so many incredible teams, and I feel as though the vast majority of them are very technically similar. As a result, I think we're tending to see a very subjective preference amongst the fans as to who is better. When Papadakis/Cizeron compete, they are obviously the strongest team both technically and in terms of performance, but now I think we have several teams who are all incredible but none of them are clear favourites on any given day. As a result, I think a lot of ice dance opinion is more subjectively based on personal preference. For instance, I'm not a Chock and Bates fan. I much prefer Piper and Paul's free dance. Of course I will be more inclined to say that Piper and Paul deserve to beat Chock/Bates because I prefer their programs. However, I'm not going to crucify the judges or say the sport deserves to lose its Olympic status because Chock and Bates win. I'm not talented enough to distinguish the technical differences between them, so it comes down to personal bias. Ultimately, I think trying to differentiate between so many teams that are on the same level is very difficult, and perhaps our interpretations of what should happen are, as always, impacted by our biases and thus we are all destined to have differing opinions. :)
 

IceDancingQueen

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 7, 2017
Wowee just caught up on the competition! What a surprise!!! I know F/G get quite a bit of flack on this site but I saw them perform in Vancouver and they really were great then even when they weren’t on top form like they were today. Their skating skills have really improved, especially Lilah. What I noticed the most is how much knee bend Lilah has. I’ve seen them perform at comps a few time and they do have an electric energy, they are fast, they move their bodies in different positions (as opposed to having their upper bodies straight making it easier to keep their weight over the skate) and they skate very close. I would say the same for Piper and Paul which I also noticed in Vancouver. They REALLY move their bodies in so many different positions making it much harder and they skate fast and close. P/P’s skating is like 5th dimensional so I really hope they win Worlds but I wouldn’t be mad at all if F/G were on the podium too. C\B will really need to improve their speed as they def feel the slowest of the top teams, but I’m sure they will as they were greatly improved by Worlds last year.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
With F/G winning here and L/L nearly beating G/P at COC are we finally seeing the younger teams rising up and challenging the veteran teams? It was starting to look like it was only going to be these older teams like C/B, G/P, G/F and maybe F/S on the podium in Milan That was a depressing thought considering these teams have been around forever and it's always good to see new blood on the podium and let's face it these teams have been to numerous Olympics and never won a medal and usually by now they would have retired if the field heading into Milan included teams like a D/W or V/M.
 
Top