2023 Worlds: Free Dance | Thoughts | Page 3 | Golden Skate

2023 Worlds: Free Dance | Thoughts

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Mar 14, 2007
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If an unknown team from a tiny federation shows up with a better program and performs better than the rest of the other competitors (according to the score sheet criteria), they deserve to win. Full stop. And I'm saying this as an American who was rooting for C/B and loved their program. Their win surprised me because I assumed the fall would cost them the gold.
There was already a big to-do about the 4th place ID team at US Nationals. The "wrong" team apparently won (4th place). I believe the term was "ruffled a lot of feathers" I can't imagine if the "wrong " team won the world championship.
 

skatedreamer

Medalist
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United-States
There was already a big to-do about the 4th place ID team at US Nationals. The "wrong" team apparently won (4th place). I believe the term was "ruffled a lot of feathers" I can't imagine if the "wrong " team won the world championship.
That sort of illustrates my point. Why should anyone win a medal just because it's "their turn?" Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a competition?
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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That sort of illustrates my point. Why should anyone win a medal just because it's "their turn?" Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a competition?
By no means am I arguing. I think it is ridiculous. I don't know how to fix it. I keep saying I will quit watching after Kait & Jean Luc retire but then I keep adopting more skaters...it is a problem.
 

Anna K.

Medalist
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Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
Apparently you can fall as much as you like as long as it's not during an element.
Maybe the deduction on PCS should be raised in Ice Dance because a fall (unlike an over-extended lift) ruins the impression of the program? If I'm not mistaking, currently there is a limitation on PCS if there is a fall but not to a degree that it matters much.

It could become an issue though because the skating speed increases and hence the top teams tend to fall more often. Talking about which, it would be very interesting to have ice metrics plainly on speed in Ice Dance. Maybe Japanese technicians will invent that if Dai and Kana make progress :)
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
Maybe the deduction on PCS should be raised in Ice Dance because a fall (unlike an over-extended lift) ruins the impression of the program? If I'm not mistaking, currently there is a limitation on PCS if there is a fall but not to a degree that it matters much.

It could become an issue though because the skating speed increases and hence the top teams tend to fall more often. Talking about which, it would be very interesting to have ice metrics plainly on speed in Ice Dance. Maybe Japanese technicians will invent that if Dai and Kana make progress :)
They cannot even apply the appropriate PCS capping already... Imagine if it had to go even lower :)
 

Spiralgraph

On the Ice
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Jul 28, 2003
Country
United-States
I also think it's ridiculous that C/B received a very good score despite the fall. But I assumed they would still win. I've been watching skating a very long time and I know ice dance is still the easiest discipline to fudge the scoring and therefore the standings. Yes it is better now than under the 6.0 system, but sometimes I just roll my eyes. That saying, I think the standings at US nationals were correct, I have no problem with Z/K coming in fourth.

Way back when I remember a commentator stated that Meryl and Charlie ruffled a few feathers when they came in second at Nationals just behind Belbin and Agosto, and we know what Meryl and Charlie achieved after that. :D

So I do like ice dance but a part of me remembers that it's not always fair.. but sometimes it is. Just enjoy the skaters you support and keep their standings and rankings in perspective: sometimes they'll be judged accurately but at other times...nope.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
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Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
So I do like ice dance but a part of me remembers that it's not always fair.. but sometimes it is. Just enjoy the skaters you support and keep their standings and rankings in perspective: sometimes they'll be judged accurately but at other times...nope.
1) I always enjoy the skaters I support... the biggest victory for any skater, not only ice dance, is a good performance. The rest is not up to them.
2) Accepting the status quo is not going to help the sport evolve in a fairer direction. People read these boards. There are judges and technical controllers who visit and even explain things once in a while. I think the post-competition venting from fans is good as long as it doesn't attack the skaters on the good end of the candy throwing :) Public opinion is exactly what got the judging scandal revealed in 2002, and back then, they didn't even have social media. Call me naïve, but I believe it's possible to send a clear message to the officials that we are watching and they better clean up :)
For the Free dance... two things bugged me down... the twizzles for top teams... and the PCS that didn't get capped. In the end, it wouldn't have mattered for the title... but the after-taste wouldn't be as sour... and you know, it is not fair to the winners either... to have their win stained with a " well judges so wanted them to win anyway that they even ignore the PCS capping rule" It's not good for anyone when judging errors, and that one is in the rulebook... it's not conspiracy, are made.
 
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sisinka

Medalist
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Look at the video (normal motion + slow motion of problematic parts):
https://files.fm/u/mf84bedfa

- Charlene & Marco - the third set - both are doing pirouette, but handbook for Technical panel mentiones pirouette for level downgrading in first two sets of Twizzles only. ....

I have to correct my first post about Charlene & Marco’s Twizzles.

I found this...Handbook for Technical panels https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...60-handbook-for-technical-panels-2022-23/file - page 31, questions and answers

(Why they can’t have everything on one place? Each element is described in 5 different documents. It is not transparent, at least not for me :).)

"Question: For Additional Feature “third Twizzle, performed correctly”, what happens if there is a mistake by one or both partners in performing this Twizzle?
Answer: It depends on the kind of mistake:
▪ mistake which would be taken into consideration by the Technical Panel if it were performed in the two required Twizzles of the Set (such as Twizzle becoming a Pirouette or checked Three Turns, more than allowed steps in between, Twizzles starting on same edge, stop before Twizzle, partners in contact for Sequential Twizzles or not in contact for Synchronized Twizzles): the Technical Panel will not give credit to the Additional Feature;"


Which means that Charlene & Marco’s third set shouldn't be counted like Feature from Group C (they both had pirouette in it). But there are another Features from Group C – for example "Set of Twizzles performed directly from creative and/or difficult and/or intricate or unexpected entry. (May be different per partner)" In case that Technical pane would decide that they had this kind of an entry - they would stay with Level 4 anyway.
 

sisinka

Medalist
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
I wonder if ice metrics could be applied on twizzle sets similarly to how the technology was used to measure individual jumps?
It would not do the judges' work, sure enough. However, lesser speed/ice coverage or a dissonance between the speed of partners could indicate that judges need to review that set slow-mo. Oh, and slow-mo option should then be made available, too :biggrin:

That is a very good idea! Loss of speed during the Twizzles and ice coverage are indicators of Skating skills. But to make it objective couples should start from stop using the same steps heading into first set of Twizzles, using same steps before second and third set (you can hardly gain speed using illusion turn in comparison with for example three-turns).

Then there is another trouble because some couple are not executing the third set, they use different feature from Group C.

So I would take first set of Twizzles only, measuring the distance, the entering and finishing speed.

Talking about which, it would be very interesting to have ice metrics plainly on speed in Ice Dance. Maybe Japanese technicians will invent that if Dai and Kana make progress :)

I hope that NHK Trophy will show us something from that in Ice Dance cathegory. :)
 

sisinka

Medalist
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
There was no review needed on most of the twizzle errors, they were blatantly wrong in normal speed (to the trained eye at least). I do think that technology could be applied to turn cleanliness though based on certain metrics

I agree, it was visible from normal speed. Unfortunately some troubles in Step Sequences can be seen in slow motion only.

I would suggest to look at all difficult turns in slow motion next years. If not it will be another place for incorrect levels, because some not clean turns will stays "under the radar".

I see todays calling by Technical panel problematic…

Handbook for Technical panel - https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...60-handbook-for-technical-panels-2022-23/file - page 3-6

"For ALL Required Elements:
● If any member of the Technical Panel sees a reason to review an element, they say “REVIEW”"

"HOW TO CALL - PSt:
● TS1 (Technical specialist who calls women) names the difficult turns performed by the Woman and will say “yes or no” based on the execution.
● TS2 (Technical specialist who calls men) names the difficult turns performed by the Man and will say “yes or no” based on the execution.
...
● If the TS1, TS2 or TC disagree with the turn and the call of yes or no, they say Review after that turn."

"● Note: Before the Data Operator opens each element for review, the message must be given, what to review and in which speed."


Based on rules only troubles seen in normal speed are suggested for review...

Overall Madison & Evan's Step Sequence and One Foot Turn Section are a great example of imperfections in rules for Technical panel.

Step Sequence got Level 4, all difficult turns were counted. Let's have a look at Evan's counter – https://files.fm/u/dgz85vnfr (the quality of the video is not the best). It looks OK from normal speed, with slow motion you can see that he changes edges through heel spreading ice - this difficult turn was not clean. But technical specialist number 2 who is calling man probably didn't suggest review because it looked OK in normal speed.

Evan also executes backward outside choctaw placing free leg beside skating leg (it should be closed choctaw). Especially left outside edge is deep indeed. https://files.fm/u/uy3nuhjnj

And here we go with little “hole“ in calling of turns by Technical panel.
Looking at Handbook for technical panel - https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...60-handbook-for-technical-panels-2022-23/file - page 9

"Question: The definition of “Closed Mohawk/Choctaw” reads that “the free foot is placed on the ice behind the heel of the skating foot”. How strict does the Technical Panel have to be on this requirement?
Answer: The Technical Panel can consider this requirement is met if the foot is placed on the ice anywhere between the instep and the toe. The feet do not have to be touching, but should be as close as possible."


Evan's position is wide stepped.

Looking at Special Regulations and Technical rules - https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/rule...les/29500-single-pair-and-ice-dance-2022/file - page 128.

Description of Choctaw...
"...Unless otherwise specified in the dance description, the free foot is placed on the ice close to the skating foot."
With one exception...
"Crossed Open Choctaw – A Choctaw in which the outside of the free foot is held in front of and at right angles to the skating foot. The hip is open after the turn. It may be wide-stepped (example: Steps 11 and 12 in the Rhumba)."

But Technical panel is in trouble...following rules free foot must be in FRONT of the skating foot. Evan's is on the way to right angle BEHIND the skating foot. Using logics this difficult turn should be counted (and it was). But rules forgot to describe this situation with free foot behind and at right angles to the skating foot - it should be Crossed Closed Choctaw.

Check Madison & Evan's One Foot Turns Sequence: in normal motion everything is OK. In slow motion once again Evan's counter is under suspicion while bracket is pure beauty by both, rocker is very good by Madison, not sure with Evan, double Twizzle is textbook‘s case by both.

Looking at Evan's blade in counter he once again goes through heel, spread of ice is not visible from this angle. https://files.fm/u/xg4mn4j5m

In Evan's rocker - it is thing for discussion. https://files.fm/u/5fcj8n5dk We can argue that after change of edge he went into flat edge first than into deep edge (while you should go into deep edge immediately). Another thing is change of edge. From my knowledge of rehab doctor - if you enter turn with ankle in valgus position you can no way create clean turn (Evan’s ankle position in picture 3, compare with Madison’s ankle position in picture 2). For clean turns you need centered position of joints.

Btw I mentioned that his ankle goes into valgus position in more moments during the program. This position of ankle is dangerous. Acute injury is more easy to happen. And having such ankle position for longer - he will extremely overuse the joint which will lead to arthrosis sooner then expected. Not centered ankle will lead to not centered knee and hip joint. Which will lead to knee pain, enthesopathy, destruction of meniscus (if he still has some), at last to gonathrosis and coxarthrosis.

Maybe Evan had older boots which became more loose allowing such range of motion. Or he has wrong flat feet insole with insufficient support of medial part of the feet. Valgus ankle is unstable ankle. It should be corrected immediately plus physiotherapy for centering joints and flat feet exercises.

It never stops to amaze me that top professional athletes very often don’t have regular rehabilitation and physiotherapy, their body health is rarely or never controled. (Once a year they ride a bike and their electrocardiogram is taken). Robert Kunkel from Germany in Pairs cathegory comes in mind. “…the physiotherapy costs privately and since this is not financed by the federation, …it is almost impossible to pay for everything ourselves.“ So he took painkillers. I know it is expensive in many countries (not in ours if you have insurance card and a doctor prescribes you a requisitions), but Federations should definitely find some way how to keep their athletes more healthy.
 
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Anna K.

Medalist
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
I actually really loved C/B's free dance. I wasn't expecting to having seen it earlier in the year, but I found it completely mesmerising. It kind of blew me away.
Same here.
Usually, I'm not the biggest fan of C/B programs but this time they nailed it. The speed, the flow, the colors, it was amazing.
The fall did confuse me though. I felt like, I just have seen a sublime program but I want to see it clean. Can anybody give me a link where they skate it equally fast but clean?
 

synesthesia

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Country
Germany
Same here.
Usually, I'm not the biggest fan of C/B programs but this time they nailed it. The speed, the flow, the colors, it was amazing.
The fall did confuse me though. I felt like, I just have seen a sublime program but I want to see it clean. Can anybody give me a link where they skate it equally fast but clean?

It was one of my favourite FDs this season as well as my favourite C/B program overall – I love the haunting music and abstract concept. Imo they skated it the best in terms of emotional engagement and also the cleanliest at 4CC – it deserved the PB they got for that skate.

Btw. re. Maddy often receiving criticism for being the weaker skater of the two: I think she has visibly improved this season. To my (admittedly untrained) eye her turns are now sometimes cleaner than Evan’s. Thank you, sisinka, for the above detailed analyses, which seem to support this impression.
 

Jumping_Bean

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 17, 2022
Btw. re. Maddy often receiving criticism for being the weaker skater of the two: I think she has visibly improved this season. To my (admittedly untrained) eye her turns are now sometimes cleaner than Evan’s. Thank you, sisinka, for the above detailed analyses, which seem to support this impression.
Yes, I also noticed that her edges overall looked clearer, deeper and more well-held this season.

Personally, to me, it appears as if skating fans often have a bit of an issue with not making their judgments on the basis of the actual competition, but on how skaters have performed in the past - Both in the skaters' favour and to their disadvantage.

Now, when it comes to things that aren't clearly visible (like a bad camera angle making it impossible to see the depth of a skater's edge), it makes sense to not necessarily assume that someone has improved massively, but if you can see the edge, then it makes little sense to say that someone has a flat edge because they had a lot of flat edges in the past when it's clearly visible that the edge isn't flat this time.
 

skatedreamer

Medalist
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Feb 18, 2014
Country
United-States
Same here.
Usually, I'm not the biggest fan of C/B programs but this time they nailed it. The speed, the flow, the colors, it was amazing.
The fall did confuse me though. I felt like, I just have seen a sublime program but I want to see it clean. Can anybody give me a link where they skate it equally fast but clean?
To my untrained eye, their FD at US Nationals looked marvelous. I searched for a link; unfortunately, that video is now blocked by NBC sports. 😡.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Jan 28, 2013
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United-States
Personally, to me, it appears as if skating fans often have a bit of an issue with not making their judgments on the basis of the actual competition, but on how skaters have performed in the past - Both in the skaters' favour and to their disadvantage.
Even when you're aware of this tendency, and yep I am aware of it, it can still be difficult to view each competition with fresh eyes.

Prior results, good or bad, should have no bearing on scoring. Neither should practices or coaches' reputations, or anything else other than what the skaters put on the ice in THIS EXACT MOMENT.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
Sure... fans do that... but the issue is that judges do it too :) I mean, how many times have we heard that Poje wasn't good at twizzles and then, he would nail them... same with Nik... etc etc... or on the opposite side... how many times have we heard that a team are so strong technically, yet, at the competition, they make mistakes and are not penalized for it? So yeah... the judges are fans too, with everything that it implies;)
 
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kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Yes, I also noticed that her edges overall looked clearer, deeper and more well-held this season.

Personally, to me, it appears as if skating fans often have a bit of an issue with not making their judgments on the basis of the actual competition, but on how skaters have performed in the past - Both in the skaters' favour and to their disadvantage.

Now, when it comes to things that aren't clearly visible (like a bad camera angle making it impossible to see the depth of a skater's edge), it makes sense to not necessarily assume that someone has improved massively, but if you can see the edge, then it makes little sense to say that someone has a flat edge because they had a lot of flat edges in the past when it's clearly visible that the edge isn't flat this time.
Her edges were better, but it's worth noting that the edges (from both of them) weren't hit with the same speed and flow as some of the athletes around them. I could argue with the level (and wouldn't give them both lvl4), but the main observation is from a GOE base they looked slower in the one foot vs some of the teams who skated before/after them (Not general observation, specifically talking about the one foot).

Generally I feel madi's edges have improved a lot to the point where they are sometimes better than Evan, but lots of the speed and power comes from Bates, and he does an extraordinary job in most of the elements to assist her/show her off. Lots of the performance comes from her though so in that way they are balanced (Watching them without knowing their coach I would have pictured them as a typical Schpilband couple with I.AM skating style - which knowing their history they pretty much are).

On the fall/PCS cap:
One thing that the ISU could do is implement PCS caps for falls within their validation system. Then it's not solely down to the judges to follow rules (which they do very selectively), but rather a default cap within the system so they are physically incapable of inputting scores higher than the cap when a fall is called.
 
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