Advanced blade with a flatter spin rocker?

[IllMetByMoonlight]

Hello again all,

I'm back again for some more advice, sorry this is long, I'm trying to unravel what the issues might be!

My just turned 9 year old son switched to MK Gold Star blades from MK Pros a couple of months ago following some excellent advice on here (thank you!), but he doesn't like them at all.

He is insistent that he would like a blade with a flatter/more subtle spin rocker as he feels that's what would work for him. He says he would also prefer the spin rocker to be fractionally further back from the toe pick.

He also doesn't like the toe pick on the Gold Stars and says it doesn't feel very secure on his 2Lz. His coach says his Lutz technique is beautiful, as I wondered if it was a technique issue rather than a blade issue but apparently not. I'm not sure if the toe pick issue is just him looking for things to pick holes in, but the spin rocker is the majority of his complaint.

His coach says it's personal preference but to try him with Pattern 99s (and he said to get our son the revolution version for impact absorption), and his skate tech says most kids his age just use whichever blades they can get cheap handed down through the club, and that he will learn to accept the Gold Stars in time.

I don't want him to have to make do if there's something that would suit him better, and I don't want his blades to dim his love of skating.

His coach says his spins have gone from being notably weaker than his jumps to being very strong. He doesn't travel at all on his spins, his coach says he can still center them even when he messes up the entries and he never has any issues finding the spin rocker and staying on it. He gets 8+ revolutions in all positions and is working on difficult variations, his current fave is flying camel > donut > biellman, but he loves just staying in spins and switching positions. He now loves spinning.

Jumps wise 2Lz is now consistent, 2A is getting there, his coach says his jump technique is lovely and his axel technique is particularly beautiful. Overall he prefers toe jumps, but the axel is his fave jump. His coach says he has very deep edges and excellent control - and the balance of an alley cat. He can usually still land jumps on a very deep edge even when he messes them up.

Is a more subtle spin rocker an advantage in some cases, do some people prefer it?

If anyone has any advice that would be great thanks.

 

[alvina9894]

Not a pro and probably not supposed to be commenting here, so don't take my words seriously.

Despite his words, according to coach his spins are better on Gold Star if I comprehend correctly? If you want to try out something with bigger toepick and flatter rocker, Pattern 99 seems like a solid choice. It has a big toepick, similar spin rocker as MK Professional (in fact compound rocker of 12" like MK Pro then a flatter 27") but he would need to adjust to the 8ft main rocker (MK Pro is 7ft) and straightcut toepicks (MK Pro is crosscut). Another option would be MK Phantom which has 17" spin rocker (a bit flatter than MK Pro, and very different form Gold Star's 7") and 7ft main rocker. Also, I suspect apart from the blade being "curvier", the higher stanchion in Gold Star might have thrown him off a bit too.

I'd say look around to see if anyone in your rink has old blades that you can try on? Kids outgrow their skates so easily there should be a few having spare blades lying around. Overall I agree with coach that Pattern 99 would be a valid next option.

 

[IllMetByMoonlight]

Not a pro and probably not supposed to be commenting here, so don't take my words seriously.

Despite his words, according to coach his spins are better on Gold Star if I comprehend correctly? If you want to try out something with bigger toepick and flatter rocker, Pattern 99 seems like a solid choice. It has a big toepick, similar spin rocker as MK Professional (in fact compound rocker of 12" like MK Pro then a flatter 27") but he would need to adjust to the 8ft main rocker (MK Pro is 7ft) and straightcut toepicks (MK Pro is crosscut). Another option would be MK Phantom which has 17" spin rocker (a bit flatter than MK Pro, and very different form Gold Star's 7") and 7ft main rocker. Also, I suspect apart from the blade being "curvier", the higher stanchion in Gold Star might have thrown him off a bit too.

I'd say look around to see if anyone in your rink has old blades that you can try on? Kids outgrow their skates so easily there should be a few having spare blades lying around. Overall I agree with coach that Pattern 99 would be a valid next option.

Thank you for the reply, no I should have clarified his spins haven't changed since switching to the Gold Stars, he was on MK Pros before those and that was when they really improved, although that may have been more that he decided to really put all his effort into making his spins better rather than the blades, if you see what I mean.

Do straight cut toe picks take much adjusting to?

He also thinks an 8ft rocker would help with speed/gliding (he's strong but very skinny) and jump landings, I'm not sure if this is the case or of he's trying to form a case against the gold stars!

I've asked around the rink but the only blades which would fit were some Matrix ones, and his coach was very against those. It would be amazing to be able to try blades out first, if only!

 

[alvina9894]

Thank you for the reply, no I should have clarified his spins haven't changed since switching to the Gold Stars, he was on MK Pros before those and that was when they really improved, although that may have been more that he decided to really put all his effort into making his spins better rather than the blades, if you see what I mean.

Do straight cut toe picks take much adjusting to?

He also thinks an 8ft rocker would help with speed/gliding (he's strong but very skinny) and jump landings, I'm not sure if this is the case or of he's trying to form a case against the gold stars!

I've asked around the rink but the only blades which would fit were some Matrix ones, and his coach was very against those. It would be amazing to be able to try blades out first, if only!

He is correct with the benefits of the 8ft rocker! Particularly the part about jump landings. Not too sure about the glide though, I think ice quality/skill/strength play a larger role.

Straight cut picks don't really need adjusting, IMO. Theoretically it allows you to spring higher because it has a better bite but I don't personally notice the difference.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Hello again all,

I'm back again for some more advice, sorry this is long, I'm trying to unravel what the issues might be!

My just turned 9 year old son switched to MK Gold Star blades from MK Pros a couple of months ago following some excellent advice on here (thank you!), but he doesn't like them at all.

He is insistent that he would like a blade with a flatter/more subtle spin rocker as he feels that's what would work for him. He says he would also prefer the spin rocker to be fractionally further back from the toe pick.

He also doesn't like the toe pick on the Gold Stars and says it doesn't feel very secure on his 2Lz. His coach says his Lutz technique is beautiful, as I wondered if it was a technique issue rather than a blade issue but apparently not. I'm not sure if the toe pick issue is just him looking for things to pick holes in, but the spin rocker is the majority of his complaint.

His coach says it's personal preference but to try him with Pattern 99s (and he said to get our son the revolution version for impact absorption), and his skate tech says most kids his age just use whichever blades they can get cheap handed down through the club, and that he will learn to accept the Gold Stars in time.

I don't want him to have to make do if there's something that would suit him better, and I don't want his blades to dim his love of skating.

His coach says his spins have gone from being notably weaker than his jumps to being very strong. He doesn't travel at all on his spins, his coach says he can still center them even when he messes up the entries and he never has any issues finding the spin rocker and staying on it. He gets 8+ revolutions in all positions and is working on difficult variations, his current fave is flying camel > donut > biellman, but he loves just staying in spins and switching positions. He now loves spinning.

Jumps wise 2Lz is now consistent, 2A is getting there, his coach says his jump technique is lovely and his axel technique is particularly beautiful. Overall he prefers toe jumps, but the axel is his fave jump. His coach says he has very deep edges and excellent control - and the balance of an alley cat. He can usually still land jumps on a very deep edge even when he messes them up.

Is a more subtle spin rocker an advantage in some cases, do some people prefer it?

If anyone has any advice that would be great thanks.

Hi and welcome. It sounds like his spins have improved with the Gold Stars and this doesn't surprise me. With the higher heel lift, side-honing and tapering, as well as the rocker and secondary radius, it helps greatly with those. He should still be able to jump on them well though. It may just take some getting used to. He went from a parallel blade to a parabolic blade and he's going to really feel that.


Your other options are going to be P99, which I wear, and Ultima Apex Supreme blade. I would NOT go to MK Phantom if he is not a fan of Gold Star and the tapering, he definitely will not want Phantom. You also don't want JW Gold Seal if he's not a fan of Gold Star.
I'm going to disagree with the coach and say that if he does go to P99 to go to traditional, there's no need for Revolution blades, at this point there would be more downsides to getting him a Rev blade than a traditional one. Just know that if he does choose to go for P99, that the stachion is LOW. He was used to standard stanchion in MK Pro, to now High stanchion in Gold Star, and P99 is low (so lower than standard). It really helps you feel the ice, especially if he's a jumper (know that the bottom pick is quite large for bite, but tapered), but some cannot get used to or do not like them (loving jumping/being a strong jumper aside).


I wish him all the luck in the world and if you need any further blade help, my DM box is always open!


ETA: One thing I would NEVER do is try on someone elses or take/use someone elses blades, esp since the other person would more than likely have a shorter or longer blade than he would need do to their boot size and he'd never get an accurate feel for it. Also, safety first.

 

[IllMetByMoonlight]

Hi and welcome. It sounds like his spins have improved with the Gold Stars and this doesn't surprise me. With the higher heel lift, side-honing and tapering, as well as the rocker and secondary radius, it helps greatly with those. He should still be able to jump on them well though. It may just take some getting used to. He went from a parallel blade to a parabolic blade and he's going to really feel that.


Your other options are going to be P99, which I wear, and Ultima Apex Supreme blade. I would NOT go to MK Phantom if he is not a fan of Gold Star and the tapering, he definitely will not want Phantom. You also don't want JW Gold Seal if he's not a fan of Gold Star.
I'm going to disagree with the coach and say that if he does go to P99 to go to traditional, there's no need for Revolution blades, at this point there would be more downsides to getting him a Rev blade than a traditional one. Just know that if he does choose to go for P99, that the stachion is LOW. He was used to standard stanchion in MK Pro, to now High stanchion in Gold Star, and P99 is low (so lower than standard). It really helps you feel the ice, especially if he's a jumper (know that the bottom pick is quite large for bite, but tapered), but some cannot get used to or do not like them (loving jumping/being a strong jumper aside).


I wish him all the luck in the world and if you need any further blade help, my DM box is always open!


ETA: One thing I would NEVER do is try on someone elses or take/use someone elses blades, esp since the other person would more than likely have a shorter or longer blade than he would need do to their boot size and he'd never get an accurate feel for it. Also, safety first.

Thank you so much for the very detailed reply and the very kind offer of DM'ing, it is greatly appreciated. I think perhaps to P99s would suit him - he doesn't like the higher stanchion of the GSs, and he said he wants to be able to feel the ice more. He said the GSs feel too high, and he feels more detached from the ice and from what he's doing, and he says its distracting.

I should have also added in my original post, he was very reluctant to mention at first that he didn't like the Gold Stars as he said he'd probably just get used to them and he didn't want us to have to buy another pair when we had only just got the GSs, but we noticed, and his coach noticed he wasn't happy with them, and we would rather he has blades he loves. He always gives 100%, he's so determined and such a kind, cheerful boy and we want him to feel we're behind him all the way. I had expected at some point we'd be buying multiple blades as we'd have to be pretty darn lucky to hit on the perfect ones for him first time every time. I just wanted to mention that as I realized he may have sounded spoilt and bratty from my first post, which couldn't be further from the truth.

And no don't worry thanks, we always get him new boots and blades, and always in the size he needs. His safety is paramount to us.

 

[IllMetByMoonlight]

He is correct with the benefits of the 8ft rocker! Particularly the part about jump landings. Not too sure about the glide though, I think ice quality/skill/strength play a larger role.

Straight cut picks don't really need adjusting, IMO. Theoretically it allows you to spring higher because it has a better bite but I don't personally notice the difference.

Thank you so much, that's very good to hear about it not taking much getting used to and that it may prove helpful to him.

 

[IceM]

A good skate tech can work with the blade profile, and even the blade placement a little, to move and change the sweet spot transition to match the skater's preference. So talking with your skate tech is probably the first thing to try, before moving to a new blade.

As far as other blade options go, from the traditional lineup you have: Gold Seal, Pattern 99, and Phantom. All are valid options to at least consider and try, imo.

I'll preface my opinion with the caveats that a) I don't think the differences in the toe picks in these blades matter all that much, and b) whether the blade is parallel or tapered/parabolic doesn't matter all that much either. What matters most are the stanchion height, blade profile, and tail length. And from these three only the stanchion height and the tail length are something that cannot be modified later by a tech, like the blade profile can (and technically, a tech can even shorten the tail if needed; taking away material is easy, adding is not).

With Gold Seals, you have a blade very similar to the Gold Star, with the exception of the 8' main rocker compared to the 7' of the Gold Star.

With Pattern 99s you have 8' rocker, significantly lower stanchion height, much shorter tail, parallel blade instead of tapered/parabolic and a more subtle spin rocker, straght cut picks with that big king pick (top toe pick). The transition to P99s would definitely be the most drastic.

Phantoms would have a similar 7' main rocker of the Gold Star, but with a spin rocker somewhere between the Gold Seals and the P99s. You also keep a slightly longer tail, cross cut picks and tapered/parabolic blade, but otherwise get the lower stanchion height and bigger toe picks similar to the P99s.

So, if you want to stay with the 7' rocker, then go with the Phantoms. But if you wanted to try a different blade from the Gold Star, I would probably go with the 8' rockers of the Gold Seals and P99s. From these two the decision boils down to if you want/can live with the lower stanchion and shorter tail of the P99. For people with wide feet, the P99 might not even be an option, as it'll limit your deep edges too much (sole of the boot will scratch the ice). As to the blade profile, a tech can get the Gold Seal match the flatter rocker of the P99 anyways. So, if it's only the spin rocker that's the issue, I would go with the Gold Seal and ask a tech to work on the spin rocker a bit. But then again, perhaps it's worth to at least try how your son would like being lower on the ice, so P99 is not a bad bet either. As to the Revolution question, I would concur with the earlier suggestion to go with the traditional version, especially for first trying the blade. But with the P99, it doesn't matter as much. If you go with the Rev, just make sure a tech checks them out, as they have thinner runners (blade thickness) than the traditional versions, and a lot of them come in warped (the blade profiles can be all sorts of messed up as well).

Hope that info helps and made some sense, I wish you both good luck!