Artistic Gymnastics | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Artistic Gymnastics

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Yes, I saw the event (vault). My question was about the floor today. Did she make mistakes? I thought she was favoured for a medal.
I have been thinking about this and it’s so similar to figure skating. Whether she made a mistake or not - we often see clean and beautiful skates with no 3A or quad (ladies) and then a “messy skate” with falls but quad attempts or 3A attempts (or even completions) and the “messy skate” wins abt the “casual fans” say “but she didn’t make a mistake.”
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Sorry, but I strongly against that opinion. There is nothing similar at all. And it's just impossible to have similarities if you think about it. Because there isn't even PCS mark in the first place - so gymnasts have literally zero reasons to train anything resembling artistry. Why they have music for women on the floors is a mystery to me, to be honest. After all, the judges assess only elements and their execution quality - not music. In any case, the floors is the only discipline that can have a speck of similary to fs, in theory - beam, vault etc. are not even close. It's like jumps competition maybe. Their whole focus on elements only is evident.
Considering the above - striking difference between any fs performance and gymnastic performance is obvious for any stranger who is watching it first time in life. I remember it very clearly what attracted me to fs despite starting to watch it couple of years ago (when artistry was gone already - if we are to believe recent narration). Focus on performance and making an impression on a viewer so strong that he begin to want follow that skater career after that. No.. that's probably only derivative. Different performances. Yeah, that's it. Despite having the same elements - each and every performance/skater left completely different taste. And there definitely would be some skates which could make you feel it on more personal level. That's what makes fs unique comparing to all other types of sport - and that's what was shocking to me then. For example, let's see.. what about latest competition?

How many people here were charmed by those new Chinese winners to start following them afterwards? Are you going to wait their next competitions - except maybe Biles? Admit it honestly ) I believe majority of people here do not care about them - and is not going to bother watching them in future. Because their performances is just set of elements - nothing more. Who is performed that set - is not that important. Even if you wanted to discuss them - there is nothing to say. All you would remember in the end is that China won there - not even their names. That's the difference between fs and gymnastics for me. It's huge. Gymnastics is much closer to swimming or running or shooting in that sense. Only results matter there.
Therefore attempts to equate such mechanical kinds of sport with beautiful and creative fs is looking as disparaging to me. Whether there are some trends to make programs more technical or not - fs exists in other set of values comparing to other kinds of sport - making any trends absolutely negligent. I suppose too many fs fans became extremely satiated with abundance of high quality skaters so much that they started to lose clear perspective or whole sport picture. I would recommend to make longer break or watch other kinds of sport longer - to begin appreciate more what fs can offer.
It has not been like that forever. Under 10.0 system a gymnast only had to have 10.0 start score. Then the rest of the time could be dedicated to choreography. Floor was 2 or 3 tumbling passes, now it is at least 3 or even 4 in the same amount of time. There just is not time to squeeze in dance, and the COP is open ended.


At least one NCAA routine goes viral every year. The gymnast is on all the talk shows and etc.


I need to learn to insert media.
 

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
i haven't watched the full beam final yet, but was able to see Simone's routine on youtube and wow. what an inspiring and smart routine. i was so sure her olympics were done...i'm so happy she was feeling well enough to compete and bring home another medal.

even though that i'm sure was the ending she wanted in a very less than ideal situation, i can't imagine she still feels heartbroken her final olympics went this way. she deserved to have the career ending she trained for and waited an extra year for. i wonder how she is feeling after this, now that she is supposed to be done...does she accept it and is ready to move on or does she still feel there is some unfinished business? she has her tour this fall, but who knows after that. i think it's a far fetched wish, but it would be awesome if she came back as a specialist one day. no matter what, she has made an impact on gymnastics that will never be forgotten.
 

Zora

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I really don't understand all the awkward dance and arm movements on the beam. It's not even with music, but somehow they're trying to interpret something that isn't even there. Is there are reason for this? I would understand one elegant arm movement as a transition to the next element, but often they're waving their arms several times before starting something new. As someone who only watches gymnastics every four years, it's really puzzling why the men can just power through their routines, but women have to do all those cringey moves.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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i haven't watched the full beam final yet, but was able to see Simone's routine on youtube and wow. what an inspiring and smart routine. i was so sure her olympics were done...i'm so happy she was feeling well enough to compete and bring home another medal.

even though that i'm sure was the ending she wanted in a very less than ideal situation, i can't imagine she still feels heartbroken her final olympics went this way. she deserved to have the career ending she trained for and waited an extra year for. i wonder how she is feeling after this, now that she is supposed to be done...does she accept it and is ready to move on or does she still feel there is some unfinished business? she has her tour this fall, but who knows after that. i think it's a far fetched wish, but it would be awesome if she came back as a specialist one day. no matter what, she has made an impact on gymnastics that will never be forgotten.
She’s been stating for a long time that she might come back to Paris as an event specialist. I kind of think based on what they’ve said though that the first thing she’s doing is going into therapy. Her coaches as well. Apparently it has been A LOT.

My dream is to see her compete as long as she wants to for her self. Then she and Aly Raisman can burn USA gymnastics to the ground and start over.
 

macy

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Nov 12, 2011
She’s been stating for a long time that she might come back to Paris as an event specialist. I kind of think based on what they’ve said though that the first thing she’s doing is going into therapy. Her coaches as well. Apparently it has been A LOT.

My dream is to see her compete as long as she wants to for her self. Then she and Aly Raisman can burn USA gymnastics to the ground and start over.
looks like there are some articles already popping up she's not ruling out 2024. before she even thinks about that seriously though, sis needs to REST. mentally and physically. i think she'd even be fine if she returned the next olympic season if she wanted to do vault or something.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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looks like there are some articles already popping up she's not ruling out 2024. before she even thinks about that seriously though, sis needs to REST. mentally and physically. i think she'd even be fine if she returned the next olympic season if she wanted to do vault or something.
Absolutely. I hope the GOAT tour isn’t too stressful. I think it’s meant to be fun so let’s hope it is.
 

Amei

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Nov 11, 2013
I really don't understand all the awkward dance and arm movements on the beam. It's not even with music, but somehow they're trying to interpret something that isn't even there. Is there are reason for this? I would understand one elegant arm movement as a transition to the next element, but often they're waving their arms several times before starting something new. As someone who only watches gymnastics every four years, it's really puzzling why the men can just power through their routines, but women have to do all those cringey moves.

Well once upon a time beam routines (at least a good number of the performances) had a softer/elegant/dance quality to them vs. the thumping power moves where the arm movements didn't look awkward like it had no place being there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U20PBP6ebs
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Well once upon a time beam routines (at least a good number of the performances) had a softer/elegant/dance quality to them vs. the thumping power moves where the arm movements didn't look awkward like it had no place being there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U20PBP6ebs
Yes. That was 1972. If you go look at Peggy Fleming compare her to whichever Russian is world champion right now. Exact same concept.
 

skatesofgold

On the Ice
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Jan 14, 2014
It has not been like that forever. Under 10.0 system a gymnast only had to have 10.0 start score. Then the rest of the time could be dedicated to choreography. Floor was 2 or 3 tumbling passes, now it is at least 3 or even 4 in the same amount of time. There just is not time to squeeze in dance, and the COP is open ended.


At least one NCAA routine goes viral every year. The gymnast is on all the talk shows and etc.


I need to learn to insert media.
Women's floor routines have had up to four passes since the 1993-1996 quad.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Women's floor routines have had up to four passes since the 1993-1996 quad.
Ok but how many were doing them? I am so used to seeing NCAA where they may only have 2 passes if they can get to a 10 with 2. I mean I say I’ve been following gymnastics since 1976 but what that actually means is that we (mom and I) watched the Olympics and for the rest of the 4 years the Olympics weren’t on we would search the TV guide to see if Wide World of Sports had gymnastics or skating on. If they did it might be at 2 am and we would get up and watch. So maybe 10 hours a year? In the late 89s early 90s I went to NCAA meets and we hosted the National championships which we actually won. When I left school there might be a couple of meets a year televised.
I didn’t pay a whole lot of attention to the technical until much later.
Now I’ve got access to every SEC match (thank you SEC network) as well as tons of other schools. I have all the World Cups through the Olympic channel. I have been to NCAAs, National Championships and Olympic Trials. So I can be a much more informed fan than when I got 10, 20 hours at the most tv coverage per year.
I don’t know why someone would do a 4 pass routine under 10.0. Was it common?
 

skatesofgold

On the Ice
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Jan 14, 2014
Ok but how many were doing them? I am so used to seeing NCAA where they may only have 2 passes if they can get to a 10 with 2. I mean I say I’ve been following gymnastics since 1976 but what that actually means is that we (mom and I) watched the Olympics and for the rest of the 4 years the Olympics weren’t on we would search the TV guide to see if Wide World of Sports had gymnastics or skating on. If they did it might be at 2 am and we would get up and watch. So maybe 10 hours a year? In the late 89s early 90s I went to NCAA meets and we hosted the National championships which we actually won. When I left school there might be a couple of meets a year televised.
I didn’t pay a whole lot of attention to the technical until much later.
Now I’ve got access to every SEC match (thank you SEC network) as well as tons of other schools. I have all the World Cups through the Olympic channel. I have been to NCAAs, National Championships and Olympic Trials. So I can be a much more informed fan than when I got 10, 20 hours at the most tv coverage per year.
I don’t know why someone would do a 4 pass routine under 10.0. Was it common?
Compulsories usually only had two tumbling passes, but even in the 70s, almost every elite gymnast was doing three tumbling passes (Nadia, for example). As the base score without bonus was lowered in elite gymnastics, gymnasts needed to do more tumbling to get that bonus, and I think the tipping point was after the 1992 Olympics starting with the 1993-96 code of points. There's quite a big difference between starting from a 9.4 (college) and starting from a 8.8 (00-04 Code of Points). College gymnasts can get away with saving their body by doing only two passes because they have more difficult leaps and jumps in their repertoire than they did in the past, but most college gymnasts used to do three passes before the open-ended code in elite gymnastics, which encourage a high level of difficulty in both tumbling and dance elements. The last three Olympic floor champions (Podkopayeva, Zamolodchikova, Ponor) under 10.0 all did four passes, and it was very common beyond them. By 2000, it was pretty rare to see someone only do three passes, like Svetlana Khorkina or Elise Ray, but they could rack up difficulty with their dance elements.
 
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moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Compulsories usually only had two tumbling passes, but even in the 70s, almost every elite gymnast was doing three tumbling passes (Nadia, for example). As the base score without bonus was lowered in elite gymnastics, gymnasts needed to do more tumbling to get that bonus, and I think the tipping point was after the 1992 Olympics starting with the 1993-96 code of points. There's quite a big difference between starting from a 9.4 (college) and starting from a 8.8 (00-04 Code of Points). College gymnasts can get away with saving their body by doing only two passes because they have more difficult leaps and jumps in their repertoire than they did in the past, but most college gymnasts used to do three passes before the open-ended code in elite gymnastics, which encourage a high level of difficulty in both tumbling and dance elements. The last three Olympic floor champions (Podkopayeva, Zamolodchikova, Ponor) under 10.0 all did four passes, and it was very common beyond them. By 2000, it was pretty rare to see someone only do three passes, like Svetlana Khorkina or Elise Ray, but they could rack up difficulty with their dance elements.
Thanks. Guess I never sat around and counted tumbling passes. And I am aware of compulsories but not sure I ever saw any. Like figures I expect they were deemed uninteresting to US TV audiences.
 

TwinnerA

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I am not sure if she got a mention here, but Brooklyn Moors of Canada on floor exercise is stunning, a rare combination of grace and power. I love her floor ex from a couple of years ago even more than her current program! Unfortunately, she only does 3 tumbling passes and was only a reserve for the floor final. She's planning to attend UCLA, and thankfully I am on the West Coast, so I can probably see her on TV once the season starts!
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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I am not sure if she got a mention here, but Brooklyn Moors of Canada on floor exercise is stunning, a rare combination of grace and power. I love her floor ex from a couple of years ago even more than her current program! Unfortunately, she only does 3 tumbling passes and was only a reserve for the floor final. She's planning to attend UCLA, and thankfully I am on the West Coast, so I can probably see her on TV once the season starts!
I’m so jealous. I try to follow UCLA but don’t have PAC 12 Network.
 

icybear

Medalist
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Mar 18, 2017
How many people here were charmed by those new Chinese winners to start following them afterwards? Are you going to wait their next competitions - except maybe Biles? Admit it honestly ) I believe majority of people here do not care about them - and is not going to bother watching them in future. Because their performances is just set of elements - nothing more. Who is performed that set - is not that important. Even if you wanted to discuss them - there is nothing to say. All you would remember in the end is that China won there - not even their names. That's the difference between fs and gymnastics for me. It's huge. Gymnastics is much closer to swimming or running or shooting in that sense. Only results matter there.
Yes maybe for the clout followers who only "watch" gymnastics via twitter headlines will see gymnastics as Simone Biles and a bunch of nobodies. But there is no need to disparage these athletes as irrelevant just because they dont generate as much tweets. Tang Xijing showed beautiful elegance on the beam and Guan Chenchen had a crazy difficult routine. Its a sport, not a who gets the most followers on instagram after being in the olympics.
 

Tutto

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Jan 25, 2013
Late to come back to the thread but wanted to share my overall impressions as it was the first AG competitions I watched in hmm 40 years.

Yes, things have changed a lot (an understatement) not always for the better but I still found it very enjoyable. The best event for me was the Women Team Final it just was magical. I favoured the Russians over the Americans because they were more elegant & graceful. It is quite amazing that all Russians looked alike all tall, more delicate, and so did the all Americans – more powerfully built. Is it just a coincidence or some philosophy behind it? Naturally, it is a matter of personal taste.

Angelina Melnikova quickly became my favourite, in part because of her elegance & lines and in part, because she was the only familiar face. I happened to watch some episodes of the All-Rounds series this past spring and followed her story. Sadly other two girls Morgan and Yile did not even make it to the Olympics what a huge disappointment it must have been.

The men I honestly tried to get interested in watching but somehow could not: why? Well, the pommel horse incredibly boring to watch, the rings were sort of the embodiment of medieval torture, floor routine without music and with clumsy attempts of elegance in non-acrobatic elements – hilarious. Okay, a high bar and vault were alright I guess.

Anyway, the women I liked a way better. What was annoying that I could not understand the scores at all. The most mystifying score for me was Angelina’s beam’s in AA competition, she did so well with a perfect landing (so rarely seen) just a tiny wobble in the beginning from which she recovered so fast. Did it really cost her 0.5 point? I wish someone could explain it to me. I suspect the judges held back a little at that point (?) If so it cost her silver in the end which she deserved in my humble opinion.

All the time I couldn’t help comparing to FS, some points:

Stamina: Gymnastics are so much more taxing, consider this, a top skater at Oly would perform their routines max 4 times, more probably 3 (with team event) vs gymnasts doing QR (4 routines for ladies, 6 for men) + team event (again 4 or 6) + AA final (same) + 4 or 6 individual finals (okay granted they qualified for all). Angelina for instance performed 15 (!) times during 2 weeks. I think it is incomparable and one can only admire their stamina.

The age. I quite liked that most ladies were in their 20s. The youngest at 16 did not look like they had just been out of Nazi concentration camp. With exception of Chinese beam champion who did look like she was 12y.o., no offence. Which made me wonder if raising the age to 16 would have some positive effect on FS in that regard?

And lastly I loved that there were so many more opportunities to win a medal compared to FS. It is really good for athletes.

And on that note I will retire. I might even watch more come the Worlds, now when my interest’s renewed. Then again I might not. FS will win I suspect.
 

macy

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Joined
Nov 12, 2011
i've never done gymnastics and i don't know enough about it to compare the stamina to figure skating, but the two have a lot of differences. women's gymnastics has four short events, figure skating 2 long. gymnasts have many different competitions to compete in, up to 7 at worlds/olympics where figure skating is two max at worlds, possibly four at the olympics if a skater competes in both events in the team final. based off of this i'd say gymnasts have more stamina when it comes to competing, but i'm not sure if i'd say they have more stamina in performing the actual events themselves. the longest event (probably floor?) is like a minute and a half vs 4 plus for a long program. i'm curious to know what an actual gymnast has to say about this if there are any here.
 
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