Besides Nathan, is there any other man to have landed every type of quad in competition?

DougDorsey

On the Ice
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Apr 25, 2018
Doesn't have to be international competition.

I don't believe Yuzuru has done 4F and I don't believe Shoma has done 4Lz.
 

eppen

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Mar 28, 2006
Country
Spain
Nathan has so far tried 4Lo twice, both in the early part of 2017-8, USIFSC and Japan Open. In the first competition, he did only 3 quads altogether of the probably 7 planned. In Japan Open, he URed the 4F and popped a probable 4S to a 2S, but that could have the program with all the quads (apart from 4A). Since then he has not tried it, but I suspect the 3Lo at the beginning of his FS in Skate America last fall could have been an attempt at 4Lo (I mean, no one does easy triples in the first minute if they have all the quads in their repertoire).

E
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
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FWIW: Nathan landed a quad loop at the Las Vegas Invitational team competition, which was televised in Nov 2020.
(The event took place in Oct 2020 on the heels of Skate America.)


(My opinion is that if World Team Trophy would "count" as a "real" competition in discussions of a skater's oeuvre, then Las Vegas Invitational also would count.)
 

eppen

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Alas, that is true, I must have seen it (and saw it, a good one that), but as a domestic comp, does not count in my books :wink: Also, World Team Trophy and even Japan Open use IJS systems and international ISU rated judges and the results are made public knowledge. I suppose, the Las Vegas Invitational used the standards, but I could not find the results protocols or judges names on the fed website.

E
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
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Doesn't have to be international competition. ...

Alas, that is true, I must have seen it (and saw it, a good one that), but as a domestic comp, does not count in my books :wink: ...

Per the OP, the scope of this thread is not limited to international competition -- so I would say that Nathan's quad loop at Las Vegas Invitational "counts" in terms of the discussion in the thread.

(That said, I do not have a problem with eppen as an individual preferring to count differently.)

... Also, World Team Trophy and even Japan Open use IJS systems and international ISU rated judges and the results are made public knowledge. I suppose, the Las Vegas Invitational used the standards, but I could not find the results protocols or judges names on the fed website.

Thoughts:

Per your first post, you are counting 2017 U.S. Classic.
The requirement for U.S. Classic tech panel allowed for one of three members to have the ISU qualification of "International-level." At least two needed to be of the higher "ISU-level."
U.S. Classic judges needed to be on the ISU list of qualified International-level judges; not the list of ISU-level judges.
Referee required to be International-level.​

In comparison, for Las Vegas Invitational:
IMO, it is reasonably safe to assume that the tech panel and judges for Las Vegas Invitational already had been in the bubble to serve in the same capacities for 2020 Skate America.
For singles, all three members of the 2020 Skate America tech panel are ISU-level.
Out of a total of ten judges for 2020 Skate America singles, five are ISU-level and three are International-level. Plus a ninth judge (Auxier) used to be an ISU-level judge (as recently as 2018-19).
The two referees for singles are International-level.​
 
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DougDorsey

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Per the OP, the scope of this thread is not limited to international competition -- so I would say that Nathan's quad loop at Las Vegas Invitational "counts" in terms of the discussion in the thread.

(That said, I do not have a problem with eppen as an individual preferring to count differently.)


Thoughts:

Per your first post, you are counting 2017 U.S. Classic.​
The requirement for U.S. Classic tech panel allowed for one of three members to have the ISU qualification of "International-level." At least two needed to be of the higher "ISU-level."​
U.S. Classic judges needed to be on the ISU list of qualified International-level judges; not the list of ISU-level judges.​
Referee required to be International-level.​

In comparison, for Las Vegas Invitational:​
IMO, it is reasonably safe to assume that the tech panel and judges for Las Vegas Invitational already had been in the bubble to serve in the same capacities for 2020 Skate America.​
For singles, all three members of the 2020 Skate America tech panel are ISU-level.​
Out of a total of ten judges for 2020 Skate America singles, five are ISU-level and three are International-level. Plus Sam Auxier is a former ISU-level judge (as recently as 2018-19).​
The two referees for singles are International-level.​


Thank you, @ice coverage! This is very informative.

I agree that folks (and the ISU, for that matter) are welcome to count jumps as "official" using whatever criteria they wish.

For practical purposes, though, I think being stringent about jumps needing to take place in an ISU competition, or needing to be scored by ISU-level judges, is making less and less sense.

We have kids in Russia who won't be competing internationally for a couple years jumping beautiful 3A and quads. Are we supposed to pretend they're not happening? That's just silly.

Not to mention that we're at the tail end of a season that has had just about no ISU competitions. Are we to pretend that none of the accomplishments that took place this season count?

Again, folks are welcome to use whatever criteria they wish, but my personal position is that if it's an official domestic or international competition taking place in front of experienced judges, I count the jump as official in my own books. Especially now that pretty much every competition - even for novices in places like Russia - is recorded and publicly available for us all to see.
 

4everchan

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Mar 7, 2015
Thank you, @ice coverage! This is very informative.

I agree that folks (and the ISU, for that matter) are welcome to count jumps as "official" using whatever criteria they wish.

For practical purposes, though, I think being stringent about jumps needing to take place in an ISU competition, or needing to be scored by ISU-level judges, is making less and less sense.

We have kids in Russia who won't be competing internationally for a couple years jumping beautiful 3A and quads. Are we supposed to pretend they're not happening? That's just silly.

Not to mention that we're at the tail end of a season that has had just about no ISU competitions. Are we to pretend that none of the accomplishments that took place this season count?

Again, folks are welcome to use whatever criteria they wish, but my personal position is that if it's an official domestic or international competition taking place in front of experienced judges, I count the jump as official.
exactly.. nobody can take away Nic Nadeau's 4loop (pre-injury) just because it was done at Nationals. it really happened... I SAW IT LIVE with my own eyes ;) and the entire row of fans I was sitting with were like : OMG was that a quad loop....? and then one coach of a national champion i won't name said : WOW... this was indeed a quad loop... it was a real and fantastic event and nobody can take that away from Nic Nadeau or people in the arena
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
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Daniel Grassl has not yet done in competition, but planning on doing salchow and toe to get all 5. Dmitri Aliev can land all in practice but not competition yet.
Alexander Samarin has done all but salchow I think.
Shun Sato I think also did all in practice.
Trusova has done all but 4Lo in competition, and expect her to see her try it some point in competition.
Brandon Mroz did all in practice but only ever tried 4Lz and 4T in competition I believe.
Edit:
Boyang Jin did everything but 4F, but I think 4F doable for him but he gets flip edge call.
 

DougDorsey

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Daniel Grassl has not yet done in competition, but planning on doing salchow and toe to get all 5. Dmitri Aliev can land all in practice but not competition yet.
Alexander Samarin has done all but salchow I think.
Shun Sato I think also did all in practice.
Trusova has done all but 4Lo in competition, and expect her to see her try it some point in competition.
Brandon Mroz did all in practice but only ever tried 4Lz and 4T in competition I believe.

Thanks, @kolyadafan2002! That's actually why I was asking; I was curious if Trusova, if and when she lands a 4Lo in competition, would be joining Nathan as the only skaters in history to land every quad (besides 4A) in competitions over the course of their careers.

It sounds like that's true.

But based on your insights, it also sounds like there are some other mens skaters who could be joining this select group soon.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
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Thanks, @kolyadafan2002! That's actually why I was asking; I was curious if Trusova, if and when she lands a 4Lo in competition, would be joining Nathan as the only skaters in history to land every quad (besides 4A) in competitions over the course of their careers.

It sounds like that's true.

But based on your insights, it also sounds like there are some other mens skaters who could be joining this select group soon.
Yup, I also forgot Vincent Zhou who lacks just a quad loop (but he will be aiming for stability first).

I think Grassl in time is eyeing a spot on that list.
Samarin changes his favourite quad all the time, from toe to flip to lutz to loop, so if he jumped 4S next I wouldn't be surprised.

I think if 4Lo = 4F = 4Lz BV eventually take into place than Shun Sato will attempt 4Lo.
Dmitri Aliev probably won't go for loop anytime soon.
 

CrazyKittenLady

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Alexander Samarin has done all but salchow I think.
I also immediately thought of Sasha Samarin. He landed several 4Lz, 4F, and 4T in competition as well as a 4Lo at the 2020 Tallink Hotels Cup. I am not sure about the 4S though. A superficial search came up with nothing, but I remember that a previous discussion about men who can do all the quads (except Axel) featured Samarin. I will investigate further. ūüĒé
 

eppen

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Country
Spain
Official records etc. are taken only from international competitions, that is behind my thinking. The judges and judging in LVI might have been up to the level, but this has not been made public by putting out the info on UFSA website or anywhere else (at least it was not in the most obvious places for FS results). The same applies for the Russian Channel One team comp from the other week.

I have kept track of men's quads for a couple of years now and my principle has been to record the international attempts and follow the practice and domestic attempts as much as possible. This year is also difficult bcs even the international competitions have non-international panels (the judges might be ISU rated, but all from the host country which does not usually happen apart from domestic, not to mention participants only from the host country).

There is an excellent, simple Japanese website which collects results data and where you can search per element. Does not require linguistic skills with combination of Japanese and English, I think the basics are super simple to get. But their data does not include domestic competitions (apart from Japanese nats). This limitation applies to many websites that collect results data - Rink Results is one of my faves because it goes wide and deep, but they have irregularities when it comes to national competitions. They have a lot of European and Japanse national competition data, but hardly any results eg for the Russian Cup or most puzzlingly no Canadian nationals. Skating Scores has a lot of diagrams and statistics, but does not go back a very long way (they might have added data, I haven't checked in a while). But for the purposes of this thread the Japanese website is the easiest and best way to check things. Well, except for the domestic comps.

I suspect there might be more skaters than we know about who have been able to do all but 4A in practice, but have never been able or have chosen not to or (back a few years ago) did not need to try and make them work in competition. For example, Javier Fern√°ndez is reportedly one of them, but he only ever did 4T and 4S (he got videoed doing a 4Lo in a show context and I think I have witnessed a half-hearted 4Lo attempt watching the practices of the GP Final gala practices in Marseille). Everyone can be a champion in practice, but only few can become a champion for real in competition (apparently said by Evgeni Plushenko to Javi) and this is true also when it comes to those jumps... There is also a difference in the level of stress between domestic and international comps (well, maybe apart from the Russian ladies!).

Nathan still the only one who has done all of them in international competitions. And if you look at success rates as shown by postive GOEs, there are only three skaters who have been able to maintain also pretty good quality - Chen, Fern√°ndez and Hanyu have all 150+ attempts at quads in international competitions and all have 60+ % positive GOE.

E
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
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Official records etc. are taken only from international competitions, that is behind my thinking. The judges and judging in LVI might have been up to the level, but this has not been made public by putting out the info on UFSA website or anywhere else (at least it was not in the most obvious places for FS results). The same applies for the Russian Channel One team comp from the other week.

I have kept track of men's quads for a couple of years now and my principle has been to record the international attempts and follow the practice and domestic attempts as much as possible. This year is also difficult bcs even the international competitions have non-international panels (the judges might be ISU rated, but all from the host country which does not usually happen apart from domestic, not to mention participants only from the host country).

There is an excellent, simple Japanese website which collects results data and where you can search per element. Does not require linguistic skills with combination of Japanese and English, I think the basics are super simple to get. But their data does not include domestic competitions (apart from Japanese nats). This limitation applies to many websites that collect results data - Rink Results is one of my faves because it goes wide and deep, but they have irregularities when it comes to national competitions. They have a lot of European and Japanse national competition data, but hardly any results eg for the Russian Cup or most puzzlingly no Canadian nationals. Skating Scores has a lot of diagrams and statistics, but does not go back a very long way (they might have added data, I haven't checked in a while). But for the purposes of this thread the Japanese website is the easiest and best way to check things. Well, except for the domestic comps.

I suspect there might be more skaters than we know about who have been able to do all but 4A in practice, but have never been able or have chosen not to or (back a few years ago) did not need to try and make them work in competition. For example, Javier Fern√°ndez is reportedly one of them, but he only ever did 4T and 4S (he got videoed doing a 4Lo in a show context and I think I have witnessed a half-hearted 4Lo attempt watching the practices of the GP Final gala practices in Marseille). Everyone can be a champion in practice, but only few can become a champion for real in competition (apparently said by Evgeni Plushenko to Javi) and this is true also when it comes to those jumps... There is also a difference in the level of stress between domestic and international comps (well, maybe apart from the Russian ladies!).

Nathan still the only one who has done all of them in international competitions. And if you look at success rates as shown by postive GOEs, there are only three skaters who have been able to maintain also pretty good quality - Chen, Fern√°ndez and Hanyu have all 150+ attempts at quads in international competitions and all have 60+ % positive GOE.

E
This was actually first said by Sergey Voronov I think in interview, but lots of Russians have said this
 

eppen

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Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Country
Spain
I think Javi was referring to Plushy saing this to him back in the day when he was still a very young skater and Plushenko partcipated in some of the summer camps in Spain, maybe around 2005-2008. But the timeline is not absolutely clear (though AFAIK they have not had a lot of contact until in recent years in shows). Could be common skating wisdom in Russia (and maybe elsewhere)?

E
 

AlimaAsh

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
It seems like nobody else landed them in competition. But Vladimir Samoilov, who isn‚Äėt really well known, has all the quads except the axel (and a 3A-3Lo). He is the guy who is called ‚Äúthe king of practices‚ÄĚ because he is so talented with crazy tech, but never pieces it together in competition.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BxDcH69IA-j : video with him doing all the quads.
 
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