Define Lambiel’s coaching style

[SXTN]

Are you sure that you are not confusing two very different things?

It is fairly normal if you don't like a specific skating style (although it would better contribute to this thread if you could define why exactly you don't like Lambiel's skating/choreography style or what @halulupu makes it "false artistry"in comparison to what makes "true artistry") or genre; or, if you are disappointed with a skater not developing in the direction that you would prefer.

However, the fact that you don't like it does not mean that the skater does not like it or that the skater feels uncomfortable with it. In the whole feedback from Champery we have had here Lambiel puts the emphasis on his student being comfortable with the music and the choreography. If you have any different feedback, then please bring it up. Because "I have a vibe" is what happens in your head, not on the ice.

Maybe you should go back and read my comment once again. Stop twisting my words. I like Lambiel's skating style when he was a competitor because it was unique and he had artistry, I don't like his coaching style though because he creates mini-me's.

 

[Anna K.]

Maybe you should go back and read my comment once again. Stop twisting my words. I like Lambiel's skating style when he was a competitor because it was unique and he had artistry, I don't like his coaching style though because he creates mini-me's.

Look, I don't want to twist your words. So can you please clarify before we continue the discussion? What exactly you don't like? Is it his coaching style, which would be his method and/or approach to the skater? Or, is it the end result of his coaching that you don't like?

Why I am asking: in this thread, we are trying to rely on feedback and these are two different types of feedback.
There is feedback about coaching method that we get from articles and interviews.
And there are skating videos that we can analyze if this is the end result that we discuss.
In either case I would ask you to link in some feedback; especially Rika Kihira feedback would be welcome because her collaboration with Lambiel has not been covered in this thread yet.

On the same note,

Shoma seemed to be a more stable skater now. But programwise I prefered much more pre Lambiel Shoma. It was more him, more energy, more honest

may I ask you for links to the videos of pre-Lambiel Shoma and later Shoma so that we can all see what you mean and discuss it?

 

[SXTN]

I don't know his technical input, which is probably very good. Shoma seemed to be a more stable skater now. But programwise I prefered much more pre Lambiel Shoma. It was more him, more energy, more honest

I agree with you. Same with Kihira. Before Lambiel she seemed natural in her programs. In that one Lambiel free skate she suddenly acted flirty and sensual towards the judges which was an akward moment everytime I saw that part because I knew this was him telling her how to look and how to move. It didn't fit her personality. You cannot turn a fruit into a vegetable, it's like giving Trusova an elegant, classical piece. Not working to my mind.

 

[halulupu]

That was kind of akward. I mean I am not so much of a kihira expert. I get that he wanted her to speak more to the judges and audience and to relax a bit. Lori would have given her music which she is comfortable with and than it would have come automatically without forcing it

 

[SXTN]

That was kind of akward. I mean I am not so much of a kihira expert. I get that he wanted her to speak more to the judges and audience and to relax a bit. Lori would have given her music which she is comfortable with and than it would have come automatically without forcing it

Exactly. Lori Nichol also has a certain style of choreography but she chooses skaters that can match the elegance and beauty of her programs without turning a fruit into a vegetable (and the vegetable being herself )
I have the feeling that Arutunyan is a also a good coach in the sense that he isn't ego-driven in first place, but lets his skaters take the stage.

 

[4everchan]

I personally do not see mini-Lambiel when I watch Shoma... I see Shoma.... he is a better skater now, which may explain why he seems less "raw and full of energy". If Lambiel were able to copy and paste his style on his skaters, they would improve their spins times 10000000... (not saying his skaters are not good spinners... but Lambiel was an incredible spinner).

I also believe that it is normal for a coach to teach what they know best, especially at the beginning of their careers. It's not a self-centered approach, it is simply logical to start with what one knows best. Shoma's jumps have improved a lot. He has achieved better results. Deniss is also improving. Would Shoma be a different skater with another coach? Yes but that doesn't mean that what is there now is bad... and that doesn't mean it would be better with another coach. I have been a fan of Shoma from his beginning and I still see Shoma as Shoma... not as a mini-Lambiel... and honestly, if Lambiel were able to create a bunch of mini-Lambiels in the future, the figure skating world should be thankful... I am still hoping that Patrick Chan gets seriously into coaching and teaches his students his amazing skating skills. If that happened and people complained about it... HAHA... I would laugh out loud in front of the computer like a mad man... If I were a young skater or a parent of a young skater and my coach would be Chan or Lambiel or any former skater, I would want them to teach me what they excelled at... That's what these guys are paying for.

Finally, a good coach to me is one who manages to keep his/ her athletes happy and improving. I see that for both Deniss and Shoma.

 

[halulupu]

Exactly. Lori Nichol also has a certain style of choreography but she chooses skaters that can match the elegance and beauty of her programs without turning a fruit into a vegetable (and the vegetable being herself )
I have the feeling that Arutunyan is a also a good coach in the sense that he isn't ego-driven in first place, but lets his skaters take the stage.

Well all coaches have a big ego, but some just feel their skaters needs more. They value their direct feedback more (or less).

 

[el henry]

I am finding the exact opposite.

Shoma is more himself, more expressive, more confident with Stéphane. I have seen long term Shoma fans, to whom I will defer, say this as well.

“oh he has a big ego” with absolutely no supporting evidence that I can see Very odd.

Shoma is far from a mini-Lambiel, but @4everchan has a good point on this one: the figure skating world could only benefit from mini Lambiels. So that’s hardly a criticism

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Does one know all to most figure skating coaches out there right now to support that they are all big egos? Because I've been in the sport for decades, do know most to all and would tell you figure skating coaches (for the most part) are NOT largely egotistical.
They teach what they know best and they also care about the well-being and success of their skaters FOR their skaters. This isn't the NFL/NBA/MLB.

And while I'm here I'm going to also point out that Lori Nichol has a tendency to make cookie cutter programs and recycle much of them for skaters over the years. And if one can't see that then there's no helping that lol.

Point standing: Figure skating has some of the nicest, caring, kindest ego-less people you will find in any sport at any time and I'm not saying that from bias.

 

[yesterday]

This forum actually has an amazing thread about this anime series (now in archives).
These are 57 pages of reactions, production information, gossip, confirmed and non-confirmed prototype search, discussion and more as it covers the whole way from the announcement of the series to its TV premiere finale. I keep recommending it as a good read not just to skating fans but also to anime fans in general because the insight provided there is really great.

From what I remember,
the show combines the stories of Yuzuru Hanyu (who skated Plushenko's winning routine in a viral video) and Tatsuki Machida, who was the first skater ever to have Stephane Lambiel in his Kiss&Cry. (Their collaboration started almost instantly after Stephane finished his carrier but there is little-to-no coverage of it in English. Yes, I tried to find some without success )
Hanyu/Plushenko line was more resonating with fans (who would doubt). But I agree that there is also certain Lambiel vibe in this anime

at least some giphies were made
and your parallels/the vibe are discussed more deeply here

and I'm so sure I've read a piece of Stéphane talking about their work together but ofc I can't find it..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And to add a bit to the initial idea for this thread I just found this interview - Stéphane about Stéphane
Not sure when this happened, but it must be after the work with Tatsuki, he mentions him briefly.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Does one know all to most figure skating coaches out there right now to support that they are all big egos? Because I've been in the sport for decades, do know most to all and would tell you figure skating coaches (for the most part) are NOT largely egotistical.
They teach what they know best and they also care about the well-being and success of their skaters FOR their skaters. This isn't the NFL/NBA/MLB.

And while I'm here I'm going to also point out that Lori Nichol has a tendency to make cookie cutter programs and recycle much of them for skaters over the years. And if one can't see that then there's no helping that lol.

Point standing: Figure skating has some of the nicest, caring, kindest ego-less people you will find in any sport at any time and I'm not saying that from bias.

Agree with you in terms of successful coaches I've met.

There are however numerous coaches with less success who have the biggest ego's I've ever seen (I would name former coaches as examples, but I feel that would be wrong on a public forum).


On the topic of Lambiel, successful students doesn't necessarily indicate ideal coaching - if a coach has no bad students, it means they are selective or dump the bad students.

As for Shoma, I'm not a fan of his recent programs, moreso because I also think his artistry, while good, is overrated by fans. (E.g. People saying he has amazing transitions, when in fact I feel he has less than Yuma Kagiyama for example). I was a fan of his older programs, and I think in part I just can't enjoy Bolero programs as I really am tired of the music.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Agree with you in terms of successful coaches I've met.

There are however numerous coaches with less success who have the biggest ego's I've ever seen (I would name former coaches as examples, but I feel that would be wrong on a public forum).


On the topic of Lambiel, successful students doesn't necessarily indicate ideal coaching - if a coach has no bad students, it means they are selective or dump the bad students.

As for Shoma, I'm not a fan of his recent programs, moreso because I also think his artistry, while good, is overrated by fans. (E.g. People saying he has amazing transitions, when in fact I feel he has less than Yuma Kagiyama for example). I was a fan of his older programs, and I think in part I just can't enjoy Bolero programs as I really am tired of the music.

For the subject of this thread aka top coaches and ego, it's pretty nonexistent. No one is talking about lower level coaches who think they are more important than they are, which in some means is true. But for the most part coaches are low to no ego, especially as we are talking about: In the higher/highest levels of the sport. Other than a few we all know that we won't mention b/c they're not a factor now, it's a non-issue.

I've always liked Uno and other than some bad music choices I feel that Lambiel has only strengthened multiple aspects of his skating that were there but needed just a bit more work and detail.

 

[Weathergal]

Does one know all to most figure skating coaches out there right now to support that they are all big egos? Because I've been in the sport for decades, do know most to all and would tell you figure skating coaches (for the most part) are NOT largely egotistical.
They teach what they know best and they also care about the well-being and success of their skaters FOR their skaters. This isn't the NFL/NBA/MLB.

And while I'm here I'm going to also point out that Lori Nichol has a tendency to make cookie cutter programs and recycle much of them for skaters over the years. And if one can't see that then there's no helping that lol.

Point standing: Figure skating has some of the nicest, caring, kindest ego-less people you will find in any sport at any time and I'm not saying that from bias.

Completely agree on the Lori Nichol point in particular - and I say that as someone who certainly admires some of the work she's done.

 

[Anna K.]

I knew this was him telling her how to look and how to move.

No, you did not know. Unlike what it seems, figure skating is teamwork. You can not know if it was Stephane, or Rika, or the second coach who came up with the particular idea. Unless it has been recorded on a video or stated in a published interview, you do not know who said what.

I can take it as a guess (a fairly logical guess btw) that needs fact-checking though. Given that you do not provide any video or published material that can back up your words and given that

That was kind of akward. I mean I am not so much of a kihira expert.

and I unfortunately don't have much time to do the research myself, I will post a help call in Rika Kihira fanfest thread. So we can possibly get some support from there and get more details that will help better understanding of the role of teamwork in figure skating. Which is btw the #1 purpose of this thread.

 

[Anna K.]

at least some giphies were made
and your parallels/the vibe are discussed more deeply here

and I'm so sure I've read a piece of Stéphane talking about their work together but ofc I can't find it..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And to add a bit to the initial idea for this thread I just found this interview - Stéphane about Stéphane
Not sure when this happened, but it must be after the work with Tatsuki, he mentions him briefly.

Well, in this interview, he mentioned Tatsuki very briefly indeed :

We know you have worked as a choreographer, and you are currently doing that as well. Tell us about this experience ...

Stéphane: It’s an experience that I would define fascinating and interesting. I love to do choreography. The "Carmen" that Carolina Kostner skated during last year’s exhibitions was choreographed by me. I have worked with Takahashi, Miki Ando, Denis Ten, Tatsuki Machida. I love to create and experiment new programs. I like to work with other skaters, to identify the movement that suits at best their personal characteristics. It's exciting!

Big thanks for the Tumblr post that you linked in though! The video posted there is a true jewel. Tatsuki's answer to the question how many fans he thought he had was just
That way, we can get a glimpse on his personality which explains a lot why of all skaters it was he who became a prototype of an anime character.

 

[SXTN]

Well all coaches have a big ego, but some just feel their skaters needs more. They value their direct feedback more (or less).

Or take Alexia Paganini. She looked like a wet noodle with Lambiel's choreo.

Above average narcissism and histrionic personality traits are very common for artists, but therefore it is important that you don't coach and choreograph at the same time. Even in Team Tutberidze this is split between 4-5 people.

 

[rabidline]

I agree with you. Same with Kihira. Before Lambiel she seemed natural in her programs. In that one Lambiel free skate she suddenly acted flirty and sensual towards the judges which was an akward moment everytime I saw that part because I knew this was him telling her how to look and how to move. It didn't fit her personality. You cannot turn a fruit into a vegetable, it's like giving Trusova an elegant, classical piece. Not working to my mind.

I am actually curious, because Rika has one free skate that was made by Stephane, "Baby God Bless You" which was skated twice (at Nationals 2020 and Worlds 2021) and I saw nothing in her expression that looked like what you described. The music was chosen by Rika and is elegant and sentimental (for some people, it's a bit too wholesome), and whenever Rika smiles in this program I felt it was at the right moment where the music swells up, and she projects warmth and gentleness.

You can see it for yourself in the videos I linked below. Is it this program? If yes, please provide me with timestamps where she acted like that.

 

[rabidline]

Also, this seems pretty in line with the topic, as we are talking about Stephane's coaching style. Back in January 2022, after Japanese Nationals and before the 2022 Olympics, Shoma gave an interview where he was asked about the reason he chose Stephane as his coach.

Even though the interview was old, a fellow Shoma fan finished an English translation of it recently, and I think it's perfect for this thread:

ã "Why did you choose Stephane as your coach?"ãã¼ Exclusive Interview with Uno Shoma || 18th January, 2022 TRANSLATION

Q. We were able to interview Stephane the other day and asked him what he was able to teach Shoma-kun, and he said something like: "I only watched over him so that Shoma can believe in himself." How...

shomagravity.tumblr.com

Q. We were able to interview Stephane the other day and asked him what he was able to teach Shoma-kun, and he said something like: “I only watched over him so that Shoma can believe in himself.” How does this make you feel?

Shoma: Well… I always skated in practice while thinking and coming to conclusions by myself. So I don’t listen if I am told “do this” or “do it like that”. I really don’t accept opinions that I don’t agree with. I think Stephane understood that as well when he was around me. However, what Stephane believed in me was that I would definitely have my return like this. It’s because he believed in things like my abilities, my feelings regarding skating and just how serious I was; rather than deliberately being like “do it this way!”, you can say he waited, or watched over me.

The only thing is, so that I don’t really overwork myself, he restrains me from taking that one last step. I think that’s the kind of presence he was for me.

I felt this way with Higuchi Mihoko Sensei as well. I wanted to be someone whose coach will be praised by everyone, by proving myself to be a world-class athlete. For the first time with someone other than Higuchi Mihoko Sensei, I want to be an athlete who lets everyone know even more, that Stephane is a great coach.

He’s a really good coach. He’s a coach who, while serious, walks along with his athletes. I really want to give a performance which Stephane will be pleased with.

Q. Did you internalize Coach Stephane’s words from even before now?

Shoma: Hmm….No, not really, honestly. I really don’t listen to what people tell me. I listen for the first time after understanding something myself.

However, I do think it’s not good to reject things outright, so of course I always try things once. I make sure to do that but before he was my coach, he was really fun. I thought it was really fun to be with him. I felt that but if you’re asking me if I always thought like “Ah, I’ll definitely go along with what he’s saying!”, then it wasn’t the case.

Q. Did you pick Stephane because he was “fun”?

Shoma: The first reason why I picked Coach Stephane is… Well, for starters it’s kind of unbelievable that he would take me as a student during the season. But he accepted that. Also, I wanted to enjoy my remaining skating life. That’s what I thought. I was able to take part in some training camps but I thought Coach Stephane’s place was the most suited for me to enjoy it. With those feelings, I was thinking of doing it once the season was over, actually. But I couldn’t afford doing that. He willingly took me in even though it was the middle of the season. Now I feel bad that I don’t go to Switzerland at all but I practice where he can’t see with the feeling of wanting to surprise Stephane with a surprising improvement.

Q. Last time when we spoke to Stephane he said that he felt Bolero was complete up to about 60%. As of now, what percentage do you think is Bolero completed?

Shoma: I agree with Stephane. It was getting better, I actually felt the feedback right before Japanese Nationals but since I had my accident, Bolero has been getting slightly worse lately. Honestly if I were to compare it to before the Nationals - it’s not about jumps and such but things like transitions… I was thinking that “If I can do this in the competition it would be amazing.” In these past 2 weeks… I think if I managed to do something once, it won’t take too long to get it back. So I strongly feel like I want to get it back.

This program really needs a lot of energy. Even if you compare it with other athletes, it’s a program that needs a lot of physical strength. You stop, you move, you stop, you move. And each and every movement is dynamic. That’s why I’m not supposed to show I’m tired. From start to finish, I think this program will 100% be something that makes others think “there’s so much movement!”. We’ve managed to get it quite close to that. Coach Stephane choreographed this Bolero because he thought it would suit me. Because it’s something he created thinking it would suit me*, what was necessary for me was to put my personality into it with full-force, rather than how I can express Bolero. I think that’s really necessary for Bolero. Day after day I did repetitive practices. Little by little I built up more physical strength. I think getting closer to 100% is something I need within me.

Q. About “Bolero”, the music he’s using for his free

Shoma: Ever since I started this layout, practices have been rewarding. That’s why, I think it’s because it’s rewarding that I can keep practicing this very tough Bolero every day. It might be that Coach Stephane wants me to work on things other than jumps, like artistry, but because of this difficult layout Bolero, this energetic Bolero, can be even more refined, I think it can become something that stands out. “He moves so much and yet also jumps so much! And he can keep moving so much until the end!” I think that’s what Bolero is.

This season doesn’t end at the Olympics, there’s World Championship as well. Coach Stephane probably will change the program after this year ends, definitely. I don’t think he would like me to continue it two years in a row, probably. So there’s only 2 competitions left for me to complete it.

 

[icetug]

Or take Alexia Paganini. She looked like a wet noodle with Lambiel's choreo.

That's quite a bold statement taking into consideration that Alexia performed a program choreographed by Lambiel only ONCE and it was at Nebelhorn Trophy, so in the beginning of the (pandemic) season...

People tend to think that all the programs the skaters of team Champery perform are created by Stephane while it's simply not true. It's quite easy to check.

 

[halulupu]

Maybe someone can provide some feedback from paganini. Its always good to know why a cooperation didn't work out and to learn from it. Don't think there will be or is any critical feedback from kihira, she is too polite for it. During lambiels time she aquired her severe injury, she is still not back. We don't what happened right? Wouldn't go so far to blame lambiels coaching style, it could be a several unlucky factors, also from previous coaches