Eating Disorders: public or silent enemy?

[Magill]

https://wedge.ismedia.jp/articles/-/13516?page=2 (in Japanese, I mentioned it thanks to @yude from Yuzuru's fan Thread)
- Yuzuru Hanyu from 2018

- "...Hanyu's eating habits have clearly changed since the Sochi Olympics... He consumed over 3,000 kcal per day, much more than an adult male, and on some days reached 3,500 kcal. It was also believed to be effective in healing injuries..."

Yuzuru is known to have been working with a nutritionist for years now as a part of Ajinomoto Victory Project, a special dietary programme for elite athletes which has been sponsoring him - and they are still his sponsors now, as a pro. So, yes, he can serve as a positive example of a well-nourished champion which IMHO a thread like this should be actually seeking to promote. It is worth it to showcase that you can win Olympics and achieve as much as he did in this sport while on a proper diet . And that it is really worth it to work with professional nutritionists, particularly those who specialize in working with athletes.
Before getting under care of the nutritionist Yuzu as a teen actually developed some kind of stomach digestive problems, could not eat much and was underfed. From what he says, it was not an eating disorder but a digestive problem for which he sought medical help as he was not able to eat enough. This combined with his asthma resulted in stamina problems which he struggled with early in his career. When he started to work with the nutritionists, his diet was shaped in such a way as to also help to manage his asthma.
Actually this coming Saturday there will be a TV interview with his nutritionist (and maybe Yuzu himself, I am not sure from this info) broadcast on TV Asahi, titled "Gold Medal Dining". If anything of interest to this thread comes up, I might be able to share. As for now, here is the info on the broadcast for those who are interested and have access to Japanese TV.

 

[Mathematician]

- "...Rippon revealed that during intense training, he subsisted on a daily diet of three slices of bread topped with margarine and three cups of coffee, each with six packs of Splenda. All with the goal of losing weight to be more aesthetically pleasing to judges..."

Calories intake - slice of bread - around 80 kcal - 3 slices = 240 kcal
- topped with margarine 3x = let's say it was like 3 tablespoons = 3x80 = 240 kcal
- I suppose coffee was sugar free - 3 cups - 3x0.5 = 1.5 kcal
- Splenda - I found it has 3 or less than 5 kcal - so let's take 5 kcal - 6 packs = 30 kcal
= OVERALL 511.5 kcal per day

Adam Rippon reveals his extreme dieting, talks body pressures in figure skating

At one point, the figure skater survived on just three slices of bread a day.

www.today.com

- Adam Rippon - article from 2018

- "...Back in 2016, figure skater Adam Rippon survived on just three slices of whole-grain bread per day, washed down with three cups of coffee sweetened with Splenda.
...Now, Rippon weighs 150 pounds (= 68 kg, 5'7" = 170 cm) — 10 more than he did in 2016 (140 pounds = 63.4 kg) ..."

140 at 5'7? Only consuming 500 kCal and training multiple hours a day?

I genuinely dont know how thats possible.

2 hours of walking at a medium pace should burn more than his total intake (rough metric but elucidating nonetheless).

His dextrose intake is unremarkable. Glyocgen wont compensate for that much heavy cardio. Maybe if he was blasting a whole box of Splenda daily or something but either way we are thinking calories in/out.

140 5'7 is a completely normal weight/height ratio giving a BMI in the upper 50% of average. How did he manage to maintain that with a literal POW diet and hours a day of cardio? I am not calling him a liar I am just genuinely confused because this seems to subvert thermodynamics. Perhaps he is just recalling a very short period of time or some sort of experiment he was doing during a psychologically hard time trying to please judges. I admit my laziness to check the full context of the article. A whole season with that sort of diet/training doesn't sound conducive with the laws of physics.

 

[sisinka]

Yuzuru is known to have been working with a nutritionist for years now as a part of Ajinomoto Victory Project, a special dietary programme for elite athletes which has been sponsoring him - and they are still his sponsors now, as a pro. So, yes, he can serve as a positive example of a well-nourished champion which IMHO a thread like this should be actually seeking to promote. It is worth it to showcase that you can win Olympics and achieve as much as he did in this sport while on a proper diet . And that it is really worth it to work with professional nutritionists, particularly those who specialize in working with athletes.
Before getting under care of the nutritionist Yuzu as a teen actually developed some kind of stomach digestive problems, could not eat much and was underfed. From what he says, it was not an eating disorder but a digestive problem for which he sought medical help as he was not able to eat enough. This combined with his asthma resulted in stamina problems which he struggled with early in his career. When he started to work with the nutritionists, his diet was shaped in such a way as to also help to manage his asthma.
Actually this coming Saturday there will be a TV interview with his nutritionist (and maybe Yuzu himself, I am not sure from this info) broadcast on TV Asahi, titled "Gold Medal Dining". If anything of interest to this thread comes up, I might be able to share. As for now, here is the info on the broadcast for those who are interested and have access to Japanese TV.

Thank you for interesting post.

Japanese language is unfortunately a barrier which prevents from getting to know interesting facts from sport life of top Japanese skaters.

Yes, definitely I would like you to write things from TV interviews with Yuzuru's nutritionist.

Digestive problems can complicate athlete's nutrition a lot. I also think that nowadays athletes are taking suppplements, some of them can lead to digestive problems as well.

In early years of his career Novak Djokovic was fighting to find ideal nutrition, based on Internet he follows gluten free diet which works the best for him. He was diagnosed with gluten sensitivity quite late, in 2010 (being 23 years old).

As to Yuzuru's case, you mentioned asthma. There are science studies confirming that asthma medications increase risks of different kind of gastrointestinal troubles, changing of taste... inhalating can also lead to nauzea. Of course it depends on substances in medication, there are many different ones. Of course another question is about gluten sensitivity or intolerance of certain substance in food which could also lead to malnutrition. I don't know closer what Yuzuru's digestive symptoms were, but I am glad that he found the way how to deal with it.

What was his age when he started working with nutritionist, do you know?

Also do you know about other Japanese figure skaters, in what age did they start working with nutritionist?

Because in my opinion it is better to start with consultations in the beginning of the skater's puberty to make sure that body gets enough nutrition for healthy development. Which will serve like protection against both eating troubles and injuries.

 

[sisinka]

140 at 5'7? Only consuming 500 kCal and training multiple hours a day?

I genuinely dont know how thats possible.

2 hours of walking at a medium pace should burn more than his total intake (rough metric but elucidating nonetheless).

His dextrose intake is unremarkable. Glyocgen wont compensate for that much heavy cardio. Maybe if he was blasting a whole box of Splenda daily or something but either way we are thinking calories in/out.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/sports/olympics/figure-skating-adam-rippon.html

- "...Rippon also adopted his draconian diet. “I’d do a few days having my three pieces of bread and then finish the whole loaf of bread and have 3,000 calories,”...

140 5'7 is a completely normal weight/height ratio giving a BMI in the upper 50% of average. How did he manage to maintain that with a literal POW diet and hours a day of cardio? I am not calling him a liar I am just genuinely confused because this seems to subvert thermodynamics....

People who are dieting for years - their body adapts to the situation and try to save as much energy as possibly slowing down any processes.

- "...Everyone's body is different, but for most people, eating less than 1,200 calories a day could slow your metabolism enough to make it harder to lose weight,” …" (https://www.henryford.com/blog/2024/04/balancing-your-metabolism-when-in-a-calorie-deficit )


- "...The calorie deficit did systematically reduce body fat levels, but the reductions in total body weight were often counter-balanced by increases in water retention..." (https://www.southwestfamilymed.com/...d-weight-loss-you-can-lose-fat-but-not-weight )


- "...The body becomes more efficient at doing work, so less energy than before is required to do the same amount of work..." (https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/starvation-mode#effects-of-calorie-restriction )

Adam was on harsh diets even before, so his metabolism could be slowed down for years.
- "...Kelly Rippon, Adam’s mother...After noticing that her son, in his teens, had adopted a diet of water-based vegetables, Kelly Rippon sat him down and explained why it was important that he mix in some protein..." (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/sports/olympics/figure-skating-adam-rippon.html )

-------

I would not use BMI as any significant measure.

Back from my skating days I do remember 2 cases of malnutrition. Few slices of ananas per day for probably 3 weeks. And few small pieces of potatoes anf carrot per day for minimum of few months. Both girls in the second half of their teens. First lost some kilograms (on muscles), other without change (puberty time). Both girls had normal BMI even with such diet.

The same problem - after multiple years of dieting their body adapted to very low energy intake. So even when they went into diet extreme, you would not be able to recognize it just looking at their body or weight.
This is very dangerous. Because thanks to this more skaters with wrong nutrition can be underdiagnosed because: "She / he looks normal and her / his BMI is normal."

 

[Mathematician]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/sports/olympics/figure-skating-adam-rippon.html

- "...Rippon also adopted his draconian diet. “I’d do a few days having my three pieces of bread and then finish the whole loaf of bread and have 3,000 calories,”...



People who are dieting for years - their body adapts to the situation and try to save as much energy as possibly slowing down any processes.

- "...Everyone's body is different, but for most people, eating less than 1,200 calories a day could slow your metabolism enough to make it harder to lose weight,” …" (https://www.henryford.com/blog/2024/04/balancing-your-metabolism-when-in-a-calorie-deficit )


- "...The calorie deficit did systematically reduce body fat levels, but the reductions in total body weight were often counter-balanced by increases in water retention..." (https://www.southwestfamilymed.com/...d-weight-loss-you-can-lose-fat-but-not-weight )


- "...The body becomes more efficient at doing work, so less energy than before is required to do the same amount of work..." (https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/starvation-mode#effects-of-calorie-restriction )

Adam was on harsh diets even before, so his metabolism could be slowed down for years.
- "...Kelly Rippon, Adam’s mother...After noticing that her son, in his teens, had adopted a diet of water-based vegetables, Kelly Rippon sat him down and explained why it was important that he mix in some protein..." (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/sports/olympics/figure-skating-adam-rippon.html )

-------

I would not use BMI as any significant measure.

Back from my skating days I do remember 2 cases of malnutrition. Few slices of ananas per day for probably 3 weeks. And few small pieces of potatoes anf carrot per day for minimum of few months. Both girls in the second half of their teens. First lost some kilograms (on muscles), other without change (puberty time). Both girls had normal BMI even with such diet.

The same problem - after multiple years of dieting their body adapted to very low energy intake. So even when they went into diet extreme, you would not be able to recognize it just looking at their body or weight.
This is very dangerous. Because thanks to this more skaters with wrong nutrition can be underdiagnosed because: "She / he looks normal and her / his BMI is normal."

I mean you could have just left it at the first part where you showed the full context explaining that he would periodically eat 3000 calories. That fit my prediction based on thermodynamics. I clearly wasnt making a point about health or eating disorders; you could argue my comment was off-topic, but at the same time it was useful for elucidating the issue since it was about a presented data-set that by my prediction was incomplete and hence ultimately relevant to the thread's discussion.

I hope you are not implying in your comments about BMI's imperfection as a universal health standard that I hold the contrary position. Since I did elucidate that in the deleted discussion which you agreed about. It would be dishonest then if there was an attempt to misrepresent my use of BMI where I clearly never used it as an absolute law of health but as an objective physical metric for thermodynamic calculation and in the other discussion as an approximative supporting evidence in my argument about who held the burden of proof. Which I know this time was understood and agreed upon. I still continue to offer you benefit of the doubt, I am sure that you were not implying my position but just edifying other readers.

I am extremely well aware of the nuances in dieting and energy consumption. We clearly agree on the nuances about BMI in my last post, where I elucidated our disagreements and agreements and you liked my response, and its funny that when we finally agreed the admins deleted the entire conversation, even though it was up for like over a week while we were in disagreement (or misunderstanding).

Yes, the body is a very sophisticated design; under calorie restriction it can maintain an impressive amount of mass by sacrificing energy. We know that mass and energy are interchangeable and are under the government of physics and math, hence their nature is subject to objective scrutiny. We can then understand that hours a day of intense cardio with a 140lbs 5'7 frame maintained by 500 calories daily transgresses any sophisticated biological discussion; it is a matter of thermodynamic impossibility. Mass can be maintained at sacrifice of energy - there is no sacrifice of energy with this professional athlete. I predicted that the context must be incomplete and I was correct in that he consistently balanced with 3000 calorie days. BMI is an accurate indicator of average physical mass held by individuals of certain heights. This can be compared also the average energy expenditure and consumption of those people and known, measured rates of physical processes. Its a physics problem and for that BMI turned out to be an accurate metric through testable, falsifiable prediction in this thread (scientific method). The context again was in regards to physics, not sociology or psychology which were realms I never subjugated to a BMI standard.

To reiterate my general position which was deleted: eating disorders are an overwhelming cultural issue to the degree that I believe all broadcast and glorification of junior girls sports should be forbidden. Any disagreements about eating disorders were about the nuances in their cause, NOT their existence or magnitude, in which some users argued that certain technical sportive elements were responsible. Apparently this was off topic. I just want to make it clear to everyone we all agreed in the end that the issue is massively cultural and supersedes niche skating-specific tech factors, which was my position. I have no major disagreement with the fundamental claim on eating disorders being an issue. I was indeed persecuted for over a week for a position I didnt even hold, then the minute I was vindicated in universal agreement and elucidation, the entire discussion got deleted and now I have to reiterate everything for like the 4th time so I am not strawmanned, villainized and persecuted for another week (hopefully...).

P.S.

You seem to have made a comment about other situations in which you vaguely predict they would falsify my BMI analysis of calorie intake and the associated thermodynamics. Something about a normal girl only eating pineapple and potatoes. Unfortunately you did not provide enough information for me to analyze this (name of athlete, time of event, height and weight, or even approximate calorie intake for starters). However, delving further into this would be off-topic, since again I was simply making a physical observation and not commenting on anything to do with eating disorders. I want to make it clear I am NOT suggesting we should continue this niche discussion and "derail" the thread so admins dont delete my post. If for curiosity you would like to present data to potentially falsify physics you can do so in my direct messages. I only continued on this point to vindicate myself (again) and to provide context on your data which is relevant to the issue (pertaining to a confirmed scientific prediction).

 

[Magill]

Thank you for interesting post.

Japanese language is unfortunately a barrier which prevents from getting to know interesting facts from sport life of top Japanese skaters.

Yes, definitely I would like you to write things from TV interviews with Yuzuru's nutritionist.

Digestive problems can complicate athlete's nutrition a lot. I also think that nowadays athletes are taking suppplements, some of them can lead to digestive problems as well.

In early years of his career Novak Djokovic was fighting to find ideal nutrition, based on Internet he follows gluten free diet which works the best for him. He was diagnosed with gluten sensitivity quite late, in 2010 (being 23 years old).

As to Yuzuru's case, you mentioned asthma. There are science studies confirming that asthma medications increase risks of different kind of gastrointestinal troubles, changing of taste... inhalating can also lead to nauzea. Of course it depends on substances in medication, there are many different ones. Of course another question is about gluten sensitivity or intolerance of certain substance in food which could also lead to malnutrition. I don't know closer what Yuzuru's digestive symptoms were, but I am glad that he found the way how to deal with it.

What was his age when he started working with nutritionist, do you know?

Also do you know about other Japanese figure skaters, in what age did they start working with nutritionist?

Because in my opinion it is better to start with consultations in the beginning of the skater's puberty to make sure that body gets enough nutrition for healthy development. Which will serve like protection against both eating troubles and injuries.

Thank you for your kind words! Here are some answers:
Yuzuru was diagnosed with asthma when he was 2 years old. It was so serious he would rarely make it to his kindergarten as he was having attacks almost daily and could hardly sleep at nights. With time and therapy his condition much improved but he still has attacks to this day.

[ENG SUB] Yuzuru Hanyu talks about his asthma

As for his nutritional support Yuzu is known to be very private so we don’t know too much. I’m not sure exactly at what age but he developed some kind of what he called a digestive problem. He ended up not being able to eat much at a time, his stomach would say “no”. I’m not sure what symptoms exactly he meant by this - nausea or something else. Still, when asked, he said it was not ED-related, but a “physical” failure of his digestive track (my words). He was very skinny and was undernourished as a result. It is very interesting for me that you think it might have been asthma-related. Still related or not, combined with his asthma it resulted in stamina problems. He became known as the master of SP, as FS was often just too much for him.. We could often see him breathing heavily and fighting for his breath by the end of it at that time. So he was seeking medical help.
Yuzu himself confirmed that he has had nutritionist(s) support under the Victory Project since 2013, one year after he moved to train in Canada so he must have been appx. 18. Still I am not sure if it was in full swing from the start or their involvement would increase gradually. In full swing they have been analyzing his various test results , muscle mass etc., defined nutritional goals and designed meal plans and supplemental support for him. These meal plans seem to be very detailed and vary in accordance with the rhythm of his competition/performance / training plans i.e. he would be eating differently on days leading to a comp/show vs on the comp/show day vs the day after vs in the training phase etc. It seems he is on a 3-full meals a day plan plus supplements. It is mostly or only Asian cuisine, miso-soup, curries, rice, etc. They have been taking care of him on a permanent basis, also during the off seasons. Difficult to judge the cause-effect as he was obviously also training a lot with very experienced coaches, but his stamina got so much better, not just winning 2 Olympics but also he’s the only skater in the world to do full time solo shows now. He’s also become much more muscular although it usually does not show under the costumes. Cong Han, the Chinese pair guy who used to carry him around as a joke in fake pair lifts, revealed once that he was surprised Yuzu was actually heavier than he looked as his slim frame was filled with very solid muscle mass.
I saw a very interesting video interview with his nutritionist once, some time ago, but it is gone now so I cannot link it. Let’s hope this coming interview will be better accessible. As for now, I have found for you this info coming from Asahi Shimbun Digital (daily) website.
Supporting Yuzuru Hanyu with the power of amino acids│Asahi Shimbun Digital

 

[sisinka]

...
I hope you are not implying in your comments about BMI's imperfection as a universal health standard that I hold the contrary position. Since I did elucidate that in the deleted discussion which you agreed about. It would be dishonest then if there was an attempt to misrepresent my use of BMI where I clearly never used it as an absolute law of health but as an objective physical metric for thermodynamic calculation and in the other discussion as an approximative supporting evidence in my argument about who held the burden of proof. Which I know this time was understood and agreed upon. I still continue to offer you benefit of the doubt, I am sure that you were not implying my position but just edifying other readers.

I am extremely well aware of the nuances in dieting and energy consumption. We clearly agree on the nuances about BMI in my last post, where I elucidated our disagreements and agreements and you liked my response, and its funny that when we finally agreed the admins deleted the entire conversation, even though it was up for like over a week while we were in disagreement (or misunderstanding).

...

In previous deleted posts you mentioned normal BMI like a support for idea that girls are healthy.
It caught my eye. Because I didn't meet this opinion for the first time. If people will follow the idea of normal BMI and normally looking body = healthy athlete scheme, then it will most likely lead to bigger number of athletes underdiagnosed with eating troubles. It may also lead to downplaying the seriousness of their troubles.

In next post you explained that BMI does not prevent from eating troubles as well as that saying that "girl is healthy" doesn't mean that she MUST be healthy (I hope I understood it well). I liked the explanation. You made it clear.

In Adam Rippon's case you used BMI once again in different meaning, everything OK. My reaction was general because your note reminded me how people can see some problems differently (not wrongly).
I am glad that you shared your ideas and opinions here.

So my notes are not directly towards you, please, take these like general notes.

Overall YOUR attitude towards Eating Disorders is strict and serious, .

-------------------

My general notes:

BMI is great tool for many things and it is widely used in medicine as well. BUT...

1) BMI is general and not precise.

I have many patients who are obese based on BMI, but some of them are people with wide shoulders and hips, big muscles, some even with athletic looking body - I don't expect their body fat to be high (but I didn't measure it) - they are simply that kind of body type which means higher weight. But higher weight automatically means higher BMI.

To support my opinion:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/02/04/465569465/if-bmi-is-the-test-of-health-many-pro-athletes-would-flunk

- "...Pro athletes often have BMIs that could get them in trouble with a workplace wellness plan. Their muscle mass can boost them into the obese range, even though they're healthy and physically fit..."

Having similar height - more muscular skaters will ALWAYS have higher BMI (weight) comparing to skaters with lean and visuakky thinner muscles. Skaters with wide shoulder - chest - hips will ALWAYS have higher BMI (weight) than those with tiny chest and narrow shoulders and hips.

BMI is not able to express differences in muscle mass and skeletal differences.

2) BMI does not predict whether an athlete is healthy / fit, it also doesn't determine body composition.

Google Scholar

scholar.google.cz

- science study from 2019

- "...The relationship between risk of eating disorders, age, gender and body mass index in medical students: a meta-regression...

- ...Results from this sample of medical students (3512 students) provided evidence for the role of interactions between risk factors (e.g., age × gender × BMI) in predicting individuals at risk for eating disorders, whereas these variables individually failed to predict eating disorders..."

From the article above - BMI alone is not able to predict eating disorders.

Eating Disorders (ED) have more types: Anorexia Nervosa, Bulimia, Binge-eating Disorder, Avoidant / Restrictive food intake Disorder. With exception of the first type if ED people suffering from all other types can have normal BMI. People with mild symptoms of eating troubles (and are in danger to get into EA in future) can have normal BMI as well.

Google Scholar

scholar.google.cz

- science study from 2012
- total of 669 athletes and 607 controls participated
- BMI and body fat percentage correlation was examined

- "...Our data show that BMI is not a valid measure for assessing or monitoring body composition in female elite athletes, and it should be used carefully in female nonathletes...

- ...what was another surprising finding: females representing both under- and overfat athlete groups reported weight fluctuation, use of PWCM (pathogenic weight control methods), menstrual disorders, and stress fractures and had low BMD (bone mineral density) and clinical eating disorders..."


3) BMI has its "normal range" which may give the idea of getting on the low level of normal range and still be "healthy". But this is not going to work.

I will use Adam Rippon as an example.
- 170 cm = 5'7", 150 pounds = 68 kg, 140 pounds = 63.5 kg
- BMI with 150 pounds - 23.53
- BMI with 140 pounds - 21.97

To reach BMI 18.5 (lowest level of normal range)......118 pounds = 53.5 kg

From the articles about Adam's story we do know that cooperating with nutritionist and finding proper nutrition ideal for Adam led to weight of 150 pounds. This is BMI 23.53. We also do know that having 140 pounds - Adam had to starve more days (with one day of overeating then), he was tired all the time, he suffered from stress fracture. We don't know his IDEAL WEIGHT (weight with the highest performance level), but we may suggest that such weight will be around or slightly over 150 pounds. Definitely NOT 140 pounds or lower. But having from 118 to 140 pounds, based on BMI, he would still be in "normal range"...

So I would like to point out that despite having normal BMI, the weight of the skater can already be too low leading to health troubles or in worse case to body functions collapse.

Another example:
Mae Berenice Meite (https://youtu.be/XGhxEljPQog?si=wO9qov9VZAcvc_RD )
- 169 cm = 5' almost 7", 69.8 kg =153 pounds
- body fat 12.2%
- BMI 24.44

Body Fat Percentage: A Complete Guide

Body Fat Percentage: A Complete Guide

www.forbes.com

- Forbes article from August 2023

- "...Body fat...It can safely go as low as 10% for women and 3% for men, according to the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM)..."

Normal ranges of body weight and body fat

Different sports have different requirements in terms of body composition. What is the proper body fat percentage for the average population versus that for athletes?

us.humankinetics.com

- an excerpt from Sport Nutrition-2nd Edition

- "...In general, the total body fat percentage (essential plus storage fat) is between 12% and 15% for young men and between 25% and 28% for young women.
- Gymnastics - body fat percentage : male - 5-12%, female - 10-16%..."
(figure skaters were not included)

While in BMI Mae is on higher level of normal range, based on body fat she is on very low level. Try to imagine that she would be suggested to go on "normal" BMI of 18.5. It would mean weight of 53 kg = 116.8 pounds. I do suppose that today Mae is on proper nutrition, so she would be forced to malnutrition again to reach lower weight. Which is a nonsense of course.

As a doctor I do think that losing more kilograms in her case would definitely lead to body fat percentage going under 10%, which would be dangerous for her life.

...
You seem to have made a comment about other situations in which you vaguely predict they would falsify my BMI analysis of calorie intake and the associated thermodynamics. Something about a normal girl only eating pineapple and potatoes. ...

My idea was not to falsify any of your claims. I just wanted to present that malnutrition can still lead to normal BMI despite burning a lot of calories on training daily.

 

[sisinka]

...Any disagreements about eating disorders were about the nuances in their cause, NOT their existence or magnitude, in which some users argued that certain technical sportive elements were responsible. ...

In this I cannot agree. Jumps are misused to be part of Eating Disorder's "support system".

Triple jump itself is not leading to Eating Disorders.

BUT better execution of triple jumps (or quad jumps nowadays) is used for justification why skater needs to lose weight.


- Jennifer Kirk - "...Often, once a skater goes through puberty their timing changes. This makes skaters freak out because what used to come so easily before they grew is now much more challenging. Unfortunately, instead of focusing on adjusting a skater's technique, it's common for coaches or parents to focus on a skater's weight and start pushing the skater to watch what they eat in order to ensure their body returns to a more "manageable" size..." (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/jenny-kirk-on-figure-skat_b_430032 )

- Jessica Dube - "...She was then told that it would be easier for her partner to lift her if she were lighter. We add that she could jump more easily..." (https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2021/05/01/le-patinage-la-rendue-boulimique )

- Akiko Suzuki - "...Japanese figure skater Akiko Suzuki was struggling with jumps when her coach said losing a kilogram could help..." (https://www.reuters.com/article/wor...ings-lustre-as-awareness-grows-idUSKBN1ET1OH/ )

- Joe Johnson - "...“A lot of coaches will argue that their comments on a girl’s weight are performance-based,” said Johnson...“Some coaches have a saying that ‘fat don’t fly’. Regardless of your height or natural build, they believe if you’re outside a certain weight range, you won’t be able to execute jumps, and that’s what they use to justify these statements.”..." (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/2/16/eating-disorders-the-dark-side-of-figure-skating )

- Ryan Dunk - "...“There’s this belief that you have to be like a waif in order to rotate… but you need strength and stamina and food to keep going,” said Dunk..." (https://thesuffolkjournal.com/38022...olk-senior-reflects-on-figure-skating-career/ )

- Narumi Takahashi - "...Although things are completely different now, at that time even the coaching team didn’t have knowledge about weight, so they would vaguely say things like ‘You can fly if you’re lighter, and it’s even better for pairs because you get lifted’ ..." (https://fs-gossips.com/12517/ )

- Nicole Rajicova - "...especially when unfortunately, comments (about weight) are still going to be an issue as they will come from coaches. I’ve gotten them since I was 13 years old – ‘maybe you should drop five pounds and those jumps will be easier in your program.’ A comment like that will leave a mark, especially for a young teenage girl. When you hear that five times, eating disorders come through the door. ..." (https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...-her-love-for-skating-again/?templateParam=15 )

- Kalea Martin - "...My coach put so much emphasis on losing weight, even over my ability to master certain skills. I could land a double axel perfectly, but if I would just lose 10 more pounds, I could jump even higher..." (https://www.popsugar.com/fitness/what-being-fat-figure-skater-taught-me-about-body-image-47771548 )

- Lindsay Toia - "...Another common narrative in the sport goes something like “due to physics and gravitational laws, lighter is better”…. but this is an over-simplified and highly contradictory statement that should not be thrown around..." (https://www.lindsaytoia.com/lets-talk-blog/lets-talk-realities-of-figure-skating-lgwph )

- Emma M. Chinault - "...Both of my coaches were consistently on me to lose weight. They would also comment on how my body was looking most days. For instance, if I looked a little bit thinner one day or looked like I was jumping a little bit higher I would get comments on how I looked like I had lost a few pounds..."
(https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1241&context=honorstheses )

- Kiira Korpi (now coaching) -
"...“Maybe skating is specifically vulnerable to child abuse because of the way the sport has developed and the way we value those crazy jumps and how it’s easier to do them when you don’t have an adult body yet. So the more robotic you can treat your mind and body the better. ..." (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...e-transformed-figure-skating-but-at-what-cost )

- Alina Zagitova - "...“Quads are too dangerous for me for the time being,” she said. “I will need to prepare for them physically and mentally. I will also need to lose some weight, something like 3kg, to decrease the risk of injuries.”..." (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...e-transformed-figure-skating-but-at-what-cost )

- Anna Shcherbakova - "......And, of course, excess weight is always a risk of injury, because our jumping is a huge load on the body, and every extra kilogram is an additional load on the joints..." (https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/anna-shcherbakova.60308/page-299#post-3207835 )

- choreographer and coach Daniil Gleikhengauz - "...Question: For example, an athlete came in the morning, got on the scales, and suddenly had plus 500 grams. How do your actions change in training?
Daniil Gleikhengauz: They don’t. But five hundred is not fatal yet. If you have plus 1kg or 2kg, then you just won’t be allowed to jump. Because this is already traumatic..." (https://fs-gossips.com/6429/ )

- coach Victoria Drazdova - "...When a coach recommends weight loss to a skater, they do so because the risk of injury increases with each extra pound, not because they are worried that a skater's costume is too small. This health-focused mentality - as opposed to a mentality focused on aesthetics - is vital, as eating disorders have become common among elite-level skaters...For too long, I ate too many sweets, pastries, pasta, and more, and by the age of 14, I started feeling pain in my knees every time I did triple jumps on ice. No one told me why jumping had started to hurt so much, but I know the answer now - my body wasn't ready for this level of intense training, and, of course, I needed to be lighter to ease the pressure on my knees to be able to make 20-40 jumps each training session..."
(https://discover.sportsengineplay.com/athlete-health/whats-emphasis-slenderness-figure-skating )

As to coach Drazdova's speech, I have one note: 1) knee pain at the age of 14 - how about Osgood - Schlatter which is very typical trouble for athletes in that age...or quadriceps tendinopathy? Pain doesn't need to be from higher weight...
2) I can imagine coach seing stamina or strength's issues and supporting better nutrition for an athlete, meeting with nutritionist, which may then lead to weight's changes as well. But support losing weight because it will lead to healthy nutrition sounds strange.

- "Loss of weight = better jumps" claim:

I don't agree.

There are possibilities how to improve jumps: a) improving technique, b) improving strengthening, c) increasing speed while entering the jump, d) improving dynamics of take off, e) increasing your leg's strength...probably you will come with other ideas.
Why it should be about lowering weight? Especially during puberty?

- "Loss of weight = better protection against injuries" claim:

I don't agree as well.

I didn't find single science article which would mention injury protection in case of lowering weight.
On the contrary there are multiple articles about losing weight leading to injuries, eating troubles, worsening performance and mental troubles.
Where are sources of "athlete's weight loss = protection against injuries" claim?

When skaters are encouraged to lose weight - in reality it usually means that they are eating less and less, finally they are starving. Their body is exhausted without needed macro and micronutrients. Skaters are forced to lose weight fast, so they tend to use methods which lead to water loss. Longer starving leads to muscle loss. How is this protecting skaters against injuries from big load in jumps? Because this is no protection, on the contrary, all those things are increasing the risk of injuries and health troubles.

To pressure skater to lose weight without knowledge of skater's ideal weight (based on body type and performance level) is wrong.

To pressure skater to lose weight during puberty to reach weight in childhood is wrong. During puberty gaining weight is needed for normal body development.

 

[Mathematician]

Triple jump itself is not leading to Eating Disorders.

BUT better execution of triple jumps (or quad jumps nowadays) is used for justification why skater needs to lose weight.

So here is my question restated from our earlier discussion, which did not get a chance to be answered (since it got deleted quickly):

Will removing triple jumps from figure skating fix the eating disorder issue in figure skating?

This was the implication by the other user which I was arguing against. I think it would not. The problem is the circus not the act; the entire paradigm, not just one of its thousand constituents. Its like trying to cure a leper by removing one of their sores. Maybe you really think getting rid of tech is the solution, I cant prove you wrong because we are theorizing and not experimenting (not science), but I just disagree.

- "Loss of weight = better protection against injuries" claim:

I don't agree as well.

I dont agree with that either, I've made that same point a few times. I think Usacheva's injury for example is a result of too strict dieting. I think dehydration is a big risk with especially that training group. Dehydration is known to lead to muscle tears and bone breaks. No minerals/electrolytes and tendons are stiff. This was a coaching failure. Usacheva was clearly meant to be bigger and if she was I think her tech would have been fine.

But I also dont really agree with the idea that a bigger girl will suffer less from injuries because she is stronger (you didnt say this but many do). Losing too much weight is dangerous but that doesnt mean a naturally skinny girl is weaker or more fragile than a bigger one, it depends on the overall biochemistry (hydration, minerals/nutrients, etc...) which sits at equilibrium at different weights for different people. I just want to make this clear since it seems lots of skating fans now see skinny as weak and malnourished thinking everyone needs to gain weight. If you force more nutrients than you need, it will waste energy/overwork the body (metabolism/digestion) (like letting a car run for too long - the body is literally a machine), cause inflammation, degrading soft tissue (tendons/joints) and also leaking harmful substances into the blood stream. Just to name a few. These all skyrocket injury risk. Whatever a girl's natural athletic form is will be the safest, so I think if a girl is naturally skinny, then making her get bigger will give higher injury risk as well. Athletic form meaning no strict dieting but also eating healthy like a serious athelete and training hard (no fast food for example, BTW eating such foods 100% increases injury risk as well and they can affect neurological (mental) health from the unnatural "flavour ingredients" which leads to worse problems). Strength isnt muscle mass, its more about CNS connection which relies on overall health, even mental health. A lot of strength athletes lose strength if they start gaining weight (even muscle, yes) past a certain point (their natural limit).

P.S. I'm too lazy to quote your other post but you make a good point about bodyfat% and muscle mass affecting BMI. If you are so muscular that BMI shows normal but you have extremely low bodyfat (yes below 10% for a woman is quite dangerous) then it can be an issue.

 

[Mathman]

I do not completely agree that eating disorders have nothing to do with triple jumps. How many little girls are admonished, "you'll never get your triple Salchow until you lose five pounds"?

Even if the coach does not say it out loud in so many words (although many have), the skater quickly picks up on it: when it comes to jumps, thinner is better.

In ice dance, there are a lot of partnerships that dissolve because the girl got too heavy for the boy to lift with ease.

 

[Mathematician]

I do not completely agree that eating disorders have nothing to do with triple jumps. How many little girls are admonished, "you'll never get your triple Salchow until you lose five pounds"?

Even if the coach does not say it out loud in so many words (although many have), the skater quickly picks up on it: when it comes to jumps, thinner is better.

In ice dance, there are a lot of partnerships that dissolve because the girl got too heavy for the boy to lift with ease.

Is this comment directed to the full information presented or just loosely adding based off an early sliver you caught of some other comment and a resulting general idea of what the pertaining topic might be (nothing wrong with that - it would just change how I should interpret this, and if I should just disengage entirely from this issue or not)?

 

[Mathman]

Is this comment directed to the full information presented or just loosely adding based off an early sliver you caught of some other comment and a resulting general idea of what the pertaining topic might be (nothing wrong with that - it would just change how I should interpret this, and if I should just disengage entirely from this issue or not)?

It was my reaction to Sinika's take (as quoted directly above in your post #131):

"Triple jump itself is not leading to Eating Disorders. But better execution of triple jumps is used for justification why skater needs to lose weight."

My opinion is that there is little disctinction between saying "triple jumps can lead to eating disorders" and "better execution of triple jumps is used as a justification for why a skater needs to lose weight" -- the second version is just more detailed. That is, I believe that, yes, obsessing over triple jumps can lead to eating disorders, in the sense that skaters are lectured (by their coaches or by their peers or by themselves or by the entirety of the whole sports scene) on the necessity of losing weight the better to execute them.

Would elimination triple jumps help? I doubt it -- skaters would just be told to lose weight so they can spin faster.

 

[Arigato]

In ice dance, there are a lot of partnerships that dissolve because the girl got too heavy for the boy to lift with ease.

Tell the guy to beef up his muscles. Work out in the gym.

 

[sisinka]

Thank you for your kind words! Here are some answers:
Yuzuru was diagnosed with asthma when he was 2 years old. It was so serious he would rarely make it to his kindergarten as he was having attacks almost daily and could hardly sleep at nights. With time and therapy his condition much improved but he still has attacks to this day.

[ENG SUB] Yuzuru Hanyu talks about his asthma

As for his nutritional support Yuzu is known to be very private so we don’t know too much. I’m not sure exactly at what age but he developed some kind of what he called a digestive problem. He ended up not being able to eat much at a time, his stomach would say “no”. I’m not sure what symptoms exactly he meant by this - nausea or something else. Still, when asked, he said it was not ED-related, but a “physical” failure of his digestive track (my words). He was very skinny and was undernourished as a result. It is very interesting for me that you think it might have been asthma-related. Still related or not, combined with his asthma it resulted in stamina problems. He became known as the master of SP, as FS was often just too much for him.. We could often see him breathing heavily and fighting for his breath by the end of it at that time. So he was seeking medical help.
Yuzu himself confirmed that he has had nutritionist(s) support under the Victory Project since 2013, one year after he moved to train in Canada so he must have been appx. 18. Still I am not sure if it was in full swing from the start or their involvement would increase gradually. In full swing they have been analyzing his various test results , muscle mass etc., defined nutritional goals and designed meal plans and supplemental support for him. These meal plans seem to be very detailed and vary in accordance with the rhythm of his competition/performance / training plans i.e. he would be eating differently on days leading to a comp/show vs on the comp/show day vs the day after vs in the training phase etc. It seems he is on a 3-full meals a day plan plus supplements. It is mostly or only Asian cuisine, miso-soup, curries, rice, etc. They have been taking care of him on a permanent basis, also during the off seasons. Difficult to judge the cause-effect as he was obviously also training a lot with very experienced coaches, but his stamina got so much better, not just winning 2 Olympics but also he’s the only skater in the world to do full time solo shows now. He’s also become much more muscular although it usually does not show under the costumes. Cong Han, the Chinese pair guy who used to carry him around as a joke in fake pair lifts, revealed once that he was surprised Yuzu was actually heavier than he looked as his slim frame was filled with very solid muscle mass.
I saw a very interesting video interview with his nutritionist once, some time ago, but it is gone now so I cannot link it. Let’s hope this coming interview will be better accessible. As for now, I have found for you this info coming from Asahi Shimbun Digital (daily) website.
Supporting Yuzuru Hanyu with the power of amino acids│Asahi Shimbun Digital

Thank you for Yuzuru's nutritional review.

Starting to work with nutritionist while being 18 years old is late in my opinion. He was already skating on senior stage for 3 seasons, it was his 4th season since he was the best junior skater. He definitely could profit more from earlier cooperation with nutritionist.

Teen age also looks to be the age when stress fractures and other overloading injuries are the most common, so proper nutrition should definitely help to reduce the number of these injuries.

I do believe that skaters and their parents should be encouraged to start with professional nutritional care in early teens.

 

[sisinka]

... But I also dont really agree with the idea that a bigger girl will suffer less from injuries because she is stronger (you didnt say this but many do). Losing too much weight is dangerous but that doesnt mean a naturally skinny girl is weaker or more fragile than a bigger one, it depends on the overall biochemistry (hydration, minerals/nutrients, etc...) which sits at equilibrium at different weights for different people. I just want to make this clear since it seems lots of skating fans now see skinny as weak and malnourished thinking everyone needs to gain weight. If you force more nutrients than you need, it will waste energy/overwork the body (metabolism/digestion) (like letting a car run for too long - the body is literally a machine), cause inflammation, degrading soft tissue (tendons/joints) and also leaking harmful substances into the blood stream. Just to name a few. These all skyrocket injury risk. Whatever a girl's natural athletic form is will be the safest, so I think if a girl is naturally skinny, then making her get bigger will give higher injury risk as well. Athletic form meaning no strict dieting but also eating healthy like a serious athelete and training hard (no fast food for example, BTW eating such foods 100% increases injury risk as well and they can affect neurological (mental) health from the unnatural "flavour ingredients" which leads to worse problems). Strength isnt muscle mass, its more about CNS connection which relies on overall health, even mental health. A lot of strength athletes lose strength if they start gaining weight (even muscle, yes) past a certain point (their natural limit)....

Yes, I fully agree. It should be individual approach based on every single athlete's parameters.

... I think Usacheva's injury for example is a result of too strict dieting. I think dehydration is a big risk with especially that training group. Dehydration is known to lead to muscle tears and bone breaks. No minerals/electrolytes and tendons are stiff. This was a coaching failure. Usacheva was clearly meant to be bigger and if she was I think her tech would have been fine. ...

Dehydration will be problem in every coaching team where scale is used to measure skater's weight, especially publicly.
Dehydration is fast possibility of losing weight, so skaters frightened from number on scales and coaches' reaction will use this. So once again the whole approach towards "weight and body" must be changed.

I mentioned Darya in Stress fracture Thread with post about avulsion fractures.

Stress Fractures in Figure Skating

4) MINDSET - REST OF THE TEAM'S MINDSET part 3 COACHES MINDSET: 1) Nutrition. Enough sleep. Vacations... 2) Lack of datas 3) Which things form coaches' soul and determine training approach? A) Negative approach and negative behavioral patterns 4) Which things form soul of coach and...

www.goldenskate.com

Malnutrition dehydration including have negative influence on any injury, I agree with you. And of course it slows down recovery.

... Dehydration is known to lead to muscle tears and bone breaks. No minerals/electrolytes and tendons are stiff. ...

Frankly I never heard about this. I read about dehydration in connection with muscle cramps, but not influencing tendons.

As to electrolytes, I found this:

Electrolyte Imbalance: Types, Symptoms, Causes & Treatment

An electrolyte imbalance happens when there are too many or too few electrolytes in your body. This imbalance may indicate a problem with your heart, liver or kidneys.

my.clevelandclinic.org

- Symptoms of an electrolyte imbalance vary depending on the severity and electrolyte type:
- symptoms:
Confusion and irritability.
Diarrhea or constipation.
Fatigue.
Headaches.
Irregular or fast heart rate (arrhythmia).
Muscle cramps, muscle spasms or weakness.
Nausea and vomiting.
Numbness or tingling in limbs, fingers and toes.

If you have some articles or materials about muscle's (tendon including) changes while being dehydrated, could you send it to me, please? I would create a post about it in Stress fractures Thread as a part of avulsion fracture injury.
Or if you would have enough time to create post about it yourself, it would be even better.

So here is my question restated from our earlier discussion, which did not get a chance to be answered (since it got deleted quickly):

Will removing triple jumps from figure skating fix the eating disorder issue in figure skating?

This was the implication by the other user which I was arguing against. I think it would not. The problem is the circus not the act; the entire paradigm, not just one of its thousand constituents. Its like trying to cure a leper by removing one of their sores. Maybe you really think getting rid of tech is the solution, I cant prove you wrong because we are theorizing and not experimenting (not science), but I just disagree. ...

No, I am not for removing jumps from figure skating. And no, this step would no way solve Eating Disorders issues. But maybe, it would lead to decrease number of female single skaters dealing with eating issues (I will explain further). But once again, I am not for removing jumps.

I am for change of approach in behaviour on the first place. Better education and knowledge. Skaters and parents and coaches should be educated not to afraid of puberty and take gaining weight in puberty like natural process. Skaters should be supported to build healthy body (no matter what body type it is) which will allow them to reach their maximal potential.

I am also for let's call it "system changes".

For example building the support system for "puberty time".

I don't watch much skating these months thanks to time pressure. So if I am wrong, please, correct me. But we have few teen skaters in top senior sport coming through puberty - Isabeau Levito, Kimmie Repond, Ilia Malinin and some others. Each centimeter in height, each half of kilogram, every change in shape and curve of body is changing their centre of gravity, their coordination of movements, their own feeling of their body. Energetic demands are growing each month and they need to get used to it. They are not fighting against fear and rivals only, but also with their physical changes (mental as well). Of course they are more prone to mistakes. I never heard any commentator commenting on fall or mistake with: "...but you know, they are going through body changes, so it is remarkable that they are able to keep the level high and land this and that." I didn't see any support messages from ISU. In my opinion right now it looks like: if you skate clean and win, everything is fine...if you fall and lose medals, nobody mentions you. I don't find this supportive especially in case of puberty time, when nobody from us knows whether the fall happened thanks to lose of concentration OR thanks to body changes which happened in past month. The second thing is not in skater's power to be influenced.

I no way want those skaters to be given higher marks than deserved just because puberty is difficult time. No. But I think that support with understanding and reassurancing of skaters coming through this period could be bigger.

Then there is another topic of international junior ladies quad jumping content, which is, well, not ideal in my opinion.

Of course, it is injury prone element. But I mean something else now.

Quad jump in male cathegory appeared on senior stage first and then junior boys adapted it many years later. Till today top senior male skaters quad content is bigger in comparison with top junior male skaters.

But how about junior girls and ladies having teen age and ladies being mature? First FULLY ROTATED quad jump (correct me, if I am wrong) was executed by Sasha Trusova at Junior Worlds. And all other FULLY ROTATED quad jumps were / are executed on junior or novice stage. By girls with prepubertal body. Or by girls with postponed puberty (Sasha Trusova and Anna Shcherbakova at the Olympics 2022). At the moment there is not even one lady being more than 20 years old who is able to execute fully rotated quad jump. There is not even one lady with mature body (let's say 23 years old) with clean fully rotated quad jump at competition. Some ladies were / are attempting it, but it was / is underrotated.

Which means that at the moment quad jump in ladies cathegory is an element which is possible to be executed with prepubertal or early pubertal girl's body only. And this is clearly wrong as a definition of ANY ELEMENT in figure skating.

Quad jump element should be the top jumping element for those who have exceptional height in jumps, exceptional ability of body coordination, great jumping technique and fast rotation.
Prepubertal body shouldn't be one of determinant of clean fully rotated jump. But in ladies cathegory it looks exactly like the key point.
Which is unfortunately another push to unhealthy eating habits with possibility of Eating Disorders. Ladies shouldn't be forced to keep or come back to prepubertal body to be able to execute any element in figure skating.

 

[Magill]

Thank you for Yuzuru's nutritional review.

Starting to work with nutritionist while being 18 years old is late in my opinion. He was already skating on senior stage for 3 seasons, it was his 4th season since he was the best junior skater. He definitely could profit more from earlier cooperation with nutritionist.

Teen age also looks to be the age when stress fractures and other overloading injuries are the most common, so proper nutrition should definitely help to reduce the number of these injuries.

I do believe that skaters and their parents should be encouraged to start with professional nutritional care in early teens.

Thank you for your comments but I think in the view of the information we have seen so far here on many other skaters, it rather deserves praising him that he's been working with a nutritionist at all, which is not common among skaters, as we all know, (BTW he just said in the interview aired this weekend that he was 17, not 18, when he first started, after all) Still Yuzu also said what I think very important - that it was pretty new and uncommon when he first started, at least in his "circles", and that it is getting more popular among athletes now.
Yes, he, or anyone else, could have benefited more if started earlier. Still he benefited a lot, even starting at this old age of 17-18 which I think deserves to be the point of focus here and not be easily dismissed. So I'd rather say it was lucky and wise that he did start at all although it was not really common in his environment, than choose to ask "why so late".
Sure, I agree parents and skaters should be encouraged to work with professional nutritionists as early as possible. Still, this knowledge should be passed on to them first and foremost by the coaches, and also by medical professionals, sport doctors, physiotherapists, or even GPs when they learn a kid is practising some sport. Nobody is born with such knowledge. If a 17 year old skater is not aware of the potential benefits he or she might get from the nutritional help, it is not his or her fault, or his or her parents' fault. It is the fault of the whole sporting environment, - the coach, the club, but also the sporting community at large, the federation, ISU - as they seemingly neglect training, information and communication on things that matter. Maybe, just maybe, because they are not properly educated themselves, on nutrition, but also on communication.
So, if some skaters happen not to be enlightened as to the need to consult a nutritionist when really young, and they happen to get the knowledge and be initiated at a bit older age, I think they should still be encouraged and praised when they do it at a later stage. They should be told "it is great, it is never too late, it can still help you achieve great things, look how it helped Yuzuru Hanyu, even though he started late" and not be dismissed as starting too late .
I also think it is important to promote this knowledge with some positive examples, as positive as they are out there. It has long been proven by huge volume of research that concentrating only on negative information does not really help much in achieving a change in behaviour patterns or spreading information. Quite to the contrary, it is contrasting the negative with showing positive ways to go and positive examples which really helps.
And BTW, it is interesting. Yuzu started working with a nutritionist when he moved to Canada to be coached by Brian Orser, although the nutritionist himself was based in Japan. So did Zhenya Medvedeva, at a similar age, alas with much damaged body and stress fractures already there, who also explained she had never ever been informed earlier about the possibility and importance of getting nutritional help. I wonder, is it possible that it was not just a coincidence but that it is a positive influence of TCC which we know of as a great coaching environment in many other ways, too. If true, this would be truly great and a model to follow.

For example building the support system for "puberty time".

I don't watch much skating these months thanks to time pressure. So if I am wrong, please, correct me. But we have few teen skaters in top senior sport coming through puberty - Isabeau Levito, Kimmie Repond, Ilia Malinin and some others. Each centimeter in height, each half of kilogram, every change in shape and curve of body is changing their centre of gravity, their coordination of movements, their own feeling of their body. Energetic demands are growing each month and they need to get used to it. They are not fighting against fear and rivals only, but also with their physical changes (mental as well). Of course they are more prone to mistakes.

But isn't the new age threshold to move to seniors trying to address exactly this, among other things? Maybe there should be some more definite shift of focus for junior skaters to allow them an easier passage through puberty changes but just the fact that their results, and therefore any potential setbacks or failures, do not count towards their senior careers yet is probably some kind of relief, or at least it should be? I know it does not work everywhere the way it should, is far from perfect, in fact, but wouldn't you see it as a step in a desirable direction? What would you think an appropriate age for them to move to seniors?

 

[Mathman]

... I never heard any commentator commenting on fall or mistake with: "...but you know, they are going through body changes, so it is remarkable that they are able to keep the level high and land this and that."

TV commentators may not say it on the air (it would be rude and embarrassing to the skater, who is probably uncomfortably self-conscious anyway), but I do think that there is a lot of gossipy talk in skating circles along the lines of, “Oh no, she filled out. Now she’ll lose her jumps.”

Michelle Kwan (a naturally thin person) had an answer when she was able to move forward with her career with minimal fuss and bother: “What did they think I was going to do, topple over?”

 

[Mathman]

First FULLY ROTATED quad jump (correct me, if I am wrong) was executed by Sasha Trusova at Junior Worlds. And all other fully rotated quad jumps were / are executed on junior or novice stage...

Which means that at the moment quad jump in ladies category is an element which is possible to be executed with prepubertal or early pubertal girl's body only.

That’s the dilemma in a nutshell. Little girl’s can do this, grown women can’t. Junior skaters want to do quads so they can (like Trusova) win the junior world championship.

OK, now what? I can see where a skater, or a coach, or even a parent, would say, “if you diet like crazy and retain a prepubescent body as a senior, maybe you will win the senior world championship, or even the Olympics. Otherwise…

Similarly, a boy who aspires to be a sumo wrestler is told, “If you stuff in enough calories to blow up to 200 kilos, you could be world champion. Otherwise, you will lose to the boys who DO weigh 200 Kilos.

 

[Arigato]

First FULLY ROTATED quad jump (correct me, if I am wrong) was executed by Sasha Trusova at Junior Worlds.

No, Trusova was not the first to land a quad successfully. That honor goes to Japan's Miki Ando. 2002.
Quad Salchow is at 1:50.

 

[gkelly]

Well, the question is what counts as "fully rotated"

Ando's was ratified by the ISU under the 6.0 standards of the time but would not have been under IJS

And if we're going to include quads that might deserve < or << calls under today's rules, then we could also consider
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X14Q4NzoHo&t=35s or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A3AY-_GP7c&t=43s
which were not ratified

Would it make sense to say that women who land quads with < or q calls (but not <<) can be considered to have landed quads in competition, i.e., to have accomplished an impressive jumping feat, even if not quite with as much rotation as the good male jumpers or best young teen girl jumpers can manage?