Effect of spin rocker on jumps, trade off of more curved spin rocker? | Golden Skate

Effect of spin rocker on jumps, trade off of more curved spin rocker?

Sunshine247

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
So it’s time to start thinking about new boots and blades. Again. Sorry for the book below.....

I think that my DD will be at the end of her foot growth or well slowed at this point so we might be upgrading blades as well as buying new boots. She’s into her doubles working on consistency basically at this point. One thing that seems to be lagging is her spin speed. She very stable and centered. So it might be help to have a more pronounced spin rocker. Feel free to comment on that one, but another aspect I was wondering about is the effect on jumps.

She made a switch to edea because she was so hard on her Jackson’s (she was breaking them down before growing out of them) and Edea has been good for her. Her blades are currently the Matrix Freestyle since she wanted to try a lightweight blade after being on the coronation ace. Her choice.

So my main question is about if she switched to a gold seal for instance, would a greater spin rocker give her more speed and rotation to complete her variations? She can add speed between some of her position changes so I feel she might be ready to take advantage of a more pronounced rocker instead of it hindering her. She can center and hold her spins well. They just tend to be sorta slowish. She’s currently working on at least 4 variations for her spins but ends up not having enough speed for her final position which makes her bielman difficult to get into and hold.

I was wondering if with a more curved blade, are you losing real estate for edge jumps? Are you gaining a roll up and down for toe jumps and landings because of more rocker? Will it mess with timing so much it won’t be worth it? How would a change in blade rocker affect both styles of jumps and is the trade off for spins with it?

There’s a new carbon frame on the Gold Seals which doesn’t have the taper to the blades tail, as well as a better space for catch foot spins. The Phoenix. She might go for that since it’s similar to the Matrix. Somehow I think I saw a post that indicated the blade isn’t quite as long as well? I would consider this blade if I felt she could use it well and use it until it was flat because of the $$$.

Otherwise I’m not sure where to go with a blade choice for her. Also under consideration are the Matrix Supreme or the Phoenix 99 if it is available. I can’t exactly tell but I’m not confident the Matrix freestyle was a good blade for her. She came from Coronation Ace which was a good blade for her. The pattern 99 Phoenix is an option as well, but I’m not sure the rocker is more pronounced than the Freestyle she’s on now. Supposedly it’s equivalent? And the original 99 was ruled out because of weight and stanchion height. She didn’t want the heavier blade. Her choice and opinion but I supported it since she’s light with big feet lol 🙄

She would probably wear this next blade out due to time on ice and getting more time in her boots without growing, but I don’t want to be wasteful or have her on a blade she will struggle with. Hopefully she finds her last and forever favorite this time. TIA.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
I'd avoid Phoenix until you've landed all triples. Getting a super-light super high-tech blade will improve jumps, but you will never be able to get maximum from it unless you've learnt how to do difficult jumps in a heavier blade first. Light blades won't impede your daughter, but will just be a waste of money. If she is at the stage where she is landing triples then it might be worth considering, but considering the blades she's in now I don't think that's the case

If you do get them, I'd recommend phoenix gold if you decide you're definitely going to go for a phoenix blade due to the fact your daughter had success in coronation ace. The matrix Supreme is similar to gold seal (although the spinning is slightly different from my point of view) , of course being lighter due to aluminium frame and being stainless steel (phoenix blades are also stainless).

But honestly, you can jump big and high in regular pattern 99s and gold seal (with plenty of people learning quads in them). Its best to build strength in jumps rather than just picking light blades to get around the discomfort of jumping with heavier ones - and then when in a few years if you change to light blades it's a nice little bonus on top (at least from my point of view).

Also remember the blade isn't exactly the same on phoenix Vs normal. I believe it's something to do with the blade itself in terms of being hollow but might want to check that.
 

MCsAngel2

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 10, 2019
Coronation Ace now also comes in a lightweight version - it's good through double lutz, meaning it's not sturdy enough for triple jumps, so you'd have to figure out how far off triples still are. They're also still less than half the price of Gold Seals, so if it were me, I'd try that first. Coronation Ace has a pretty defined spin rocker and I've always heard that Ultima blades are flatter at the spin rocker.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Patineuse élite et professionnelle
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Canada
I agree with the above post by @kolyadafan2002.

As someone that's worn pretty much every blade or tested them, and have worn Pattern 99's for years now, I'd suggest your daughter does get a Gold Seal or Pattern 99, the old skool ones. Another good choice is the MK Phantom. The top blades have a more curved rocker for a reason, and no they will not mess up her edges, some of the most beautiful edgework in figure skating has been done on these blades. As far as jumping, wearing a Pattern 99 or the likes will not cause her to not be able to jump high and explosive, my jumps have always been high and huge and again, I wear Pattern 99's and edge jumps are my thing btw so they aren't going to mess those up for her. Many other skaters who have worn them, same story. And the matrix blades say they are equivalent to P99 or Gold Seal, but not really, rockers are too flat etc...
Now, I will say that she will have to do more off-ice to strengthen herself to be able to keep her jumps high and strong with the heavier blades, but just realize that at one point, the older style blades were all some of us had for most of our careers and we did just fine.
Even though you didn't mention them, I will tell you that the Revolution blades are not great for catch foots and Biellmann style spins.
 

Sunshine247

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
On a mobile so I can’t quote all the responses but I thank everyone for input.

DD regretfully went to the Matrix Freestyle after Coronation Ace. I had the feeling they were flatter. Some of my pondering about switching blades is if changing frequently would be an issue. She’s not Ic3Rabbit, lol.

She does off ice and works out now to help improve her jump height, and I’m not too concerned about blade weight, but it’s good to hear from someone experienced. I wasn’t thinking the blade weight in terms of allowing her to jump higher but I felt like less strain on her feet and knees might be a factor. she’s got big feet she’s been growing into. Lol. Which means big clunky boots....She’s my third girl and they basically had near their adult sized feet from 10 Years on. She grew maybe a half size over the last two years each. Middle DD was done by this age.

She might start on 2A and or triples on her next blade since her foot is likely done growing, I’m thinking two set of boots one set of blades next basically. So I’m not sure if we’d put her back in coronation ace. Her coach initially recommended a pattern 99. Shes started working on 2Ltz now. Oddly her 2flip was not too tough for her and also 2Loop vs 2toe which is a struggle sometimes. 2Sal wasnt really an issue right after her Axel which seems common?

I was hoping she’d use the Pattern 99, but the matrix style was appealing to her. The coach was ok with it so it was a compromise. We had ruled out the revolution style blades for price and the shape of them so that left Matrix as a lightweight option. Now that the Phoenix style was offered I was curious.

I’m glad to hear the spin rocker change isn’t likely to affect her jumps/timing. I’m not sure if she should go for Gold seal or pattern 99 at this point But I feel better that making a change wouldn’t be an issue for jumps if we go for a blade targeted for improving spins. I feel like the Pattern 99 would be an improvement over the Matrix for spins but how is it different from the Coronation Ace? does it have a more pronounced spin rocker than the CA? I’ll have to look again at specs since we have time.
thanks again!
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
On a mobile so I can’t quote all the responses but I thank everyone for input.

DD regretfully went to the Matrix Freestyle after Coronation Ace. I had the feeling they were flatter. Some of my pondering about switching blades is if changing frequently would be an issue. She’s not Ic3Rabbit, lol.

She does off ice and works out now to help improve her jump height, and I’m not too concerned about blade weight, but it’s good to hear from someone experienced. I wasn’t thinking the blade weight in terms of allowing her to jump higher but I felt like less strain on her feet and knees might be a factor. she’s got big feet she’s been growing into. Lol. Which means big clunky boots....She’s my third girl and they basically had near their adult sized feet from 10 Years on. She grew maybe a half size over the last two years each. Middle DD was done by this age.

She might start on 2A and or triples on her next blade since her foot is likely done growing, I’m thinking two set of boots one set of blades next basically. So I’m not sure if we’d put her back in coronation ace. Her coach initially recommended a pattern 99. Shes started working on 2Ltz now. Oddly her 2flip was not too tough for her and also 2Loop vs 2toe which is a struggle sometimes. 2Sal wasnt really an issue right after her Axel which seems common?

I was hoping she’d use the Pattern 99, but the matrix style was appealing to her. The coach was ok with it so it was a compromise. We had ruled out the revolution style blades for price and the shape of them so that left Matrix as a lightweight option. Now that the Phoenix style was offered I was curious.

I’m glad to hear the spin rocker change isn’t likely to affect her jumps/timing. I’m not sure if she should go for Gold seal or pattern 99 at this point But I feel better that making a change wouldn’t be an issue for jumps if we go for a blade targeted for improving spins. I feel like the Pattern 99 would be an improvement over the Matrix for spins but how is it different from the Coronation Ace? does it have a more pronounced spin rocker than the CA? I’ll have to look again at specs since we have time.
thanks again!

Do note that Phoenix is more expensive than revolution by a reasonable margin. Blade weight shouldn't affect strain on knees and ankles too much, and I haven't heard of it being an issue before.
Changing blades shouldn't be done often unless you have an issue with the previous blade. When it comes to upgrades, these aren't an issue at all when it's done through the same type of blade (e.g. Coronation Ace - gold seal/pattern 99 - revolution blade of this type (although Revolution Blades aren't necessary and the issues with the catch spin)).
For 2A and triples Coronation Ace is definitely possible, but I'd still recommend something like Gold Seal / Pattern 99 especially if the feet are done growing.
I think whatever you choose there will be an adjustment period. You will have to take time to get used to spin rocker (although IMO jumps have not got as big adjustment period)

If she wants Matrix I'd personally be inclined to go Supreme over Elite due to my preference of Cross-cut picks, but this is purely my personal preference (I went from Gold Seal to Matrix Elite due to some bad experiences with HDSports Support but the blades were perfectly fine for the most part) and it definitely has positives and negatives - in reality you can learn to jump well in blades by either company. If your coach is recommending Pattern 99 I believe the Elite is closer to this (But John Wilson spin points are unique to them and honestly they won't be an identical experience).

In terms of which jumps are better, I'd put this down to body Physiology and jump technique rather than equipment (Unless the Equipment is faulty). For example, I've always struggled with axel due to my axel technique and found every triple significantly easier than double axel (and every double significantly easier than single axel). This is often a case if you have very broad shoulders or you hadn't been taught a strong technique for the axel take-off.
In general with toe-loop it can be an insanely difficult jump if you don't have a good take-off technique, but is extremely easy if you have learnt the right take-off (of course can be dependant on body physiology too.

I personally never wore Pattern 99's so I'll leave the differences explaining in feeling to @Ic3Rabbit , but here is the spec sheet: John Wilson (johnwilsonskates.com) . Also look at the fact Gold seal is tapered, but phoenix gold is not. John Wilson blades also have a "secondary rocker" which affects spinning....

Anybody who knows me knows I'm a big advocate of Carbon Fibre technology in figure skating, but I could not justify the expense of Phoenix/Revolutions at this stage in order to gain temporary boost in height/comfort. Once all triples are landed or thereabouts, then maybe it's worth a conversation (even if it's not a requirement). Just to give you an idea, both these are jumped in traditional blades: Mikhail KOLYADA vs Boyang JIN: QUAD LUTZ (4Lz) | Михаил Коляда 金博洋 - YouTube . Of course these are men, but it's making the point that you don't need revolutions/phoenix to jump higher - you just need technique and strength. I think sherbakova may wear them (correct me if I'm wrong), and then most of the Russians were blades with Runners (Either Jackson or MK)
 

Ic3Rabbit

Patineuse élite et professionnelle
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Canada
On a mobile so I can’t quote all the responses but I thank everyone for input.

DD regretfully went to the Matrix Freestyle after Coronation Ace. I had the feeling they were flatter. Some of my pondering about switching blades is if changing frequently would be an issue. She’s not Ic3Rabbit, lol.

She does off ice and works out now to help improve her jump height, and I’m not too concerned about blade weight, but it’s good to hear from someone experienced. I wasn’t thinking the blade weight in terms of allowing her to jump higher but I felt like less strain on her feet and knees might be a factor. she’s got big feet she’s been growing into. Lol. Which means big clunky boots....She’s my third girl and they basically had near their adult sized feet from 10 Years on. She grew maybe a half size over the last two years each. Middle DD was done by this age.

She might start on 2A and or triples on her next blade since her foot is likely done growing, I’m thinking two set of boots one set of blades next basically. So I’m not sure if we’d put her back in coronation ace. Her coach initially recommended a pattern 99. Shes started working on 2Ltz now. Oddly her 2flip was not too tough for her and also 2Loop vs 2toe which is a struggle sometimes. 2Sal wasnt really an issue right after her Axel which seems common?

I was hoping she’d use the Pattern 99, but the matrix style was appealing to her. The coach was ok with it so it was a compromise. We had ruled out the revolution style blades for price and the shape of them so that left Matrix as a lightweight option. Now that the Phoenix style was offered I was curious.

I’m glad to hear the spin rocker change isn’t likely to affect her jumps/timing. I’m not sure if she should go for Gold seal or pattern 99 at this point But I feel better that making a change wouldn’t be an issue for jumps if we go for a blade targeted for improving spins. I feel like the Pattern 99 would be an improvement over the Matrix for spins but how is it different from the Coronation Ace? does it have a more pronounced spin rocker than the CA? I’ll have to look again at specs since we have time.
thanks again!
I never suggested frequently switching blades, it was something I had to go through and then as a pro got the opportunity to trial them for brands, and I know she's not me lol and never mentioned that to brag or anything. I was just relaying experiences myself and other elite skating friends/pros have had that I know of in order to hopefully help you as well as ease your mind for your skater.

If it were me, I'd go with the Pattern 99 traditional. Her coach apparently wanted her in them for awhile now, and other than getting used to the the larger top pick (which doesn't take long) I feel like they would really help her with what she needs all around. The top pick will help with her jump take off and launch as well.

I will say that I would not do two pairs of skates, one pair of blades, because it's unlikely the blades are going to make it further than the first set of boots at this stage and going forward in her training. There's going to be a point if she's dedicated and going for triples she will need to have two sets of boots/blades.

Good luck. :cool:
 
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