Genuine rotations in the air for each of the jumps

[NadezhdaNadya]

Please share your opinion.
For example, I know that for quad toe loop the genuine rotations in the air should be 3.25. For quad flip and quad lutz the rotations should be 3.75 in the air (like Boyang's quad lutz). What about the triple axel (I guess it is 3.25 rotations in the air?)

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Triple axel usually has 1/4 - 1/2 prerotation:
1/4 (or thereabouts examples)
- yuzuru hanyu
- Mikhail Kolyada
- Han yan
1/2 (or thereabouts examples)
-javier Fernandez
-sergei Voronov.
Since you are allowed 1/4 underrotation (or an infintisimately small amount less than a quarter), 2.75-3.00 is considered acceptable in a triple axel with 3.25 being ideal and 2.75 being a very bad jump...

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Triple axel usually has 1/4 - 1/2 prerotation:
1/4 (or thereabouts examples)
- yuzuru hanyu
- Mikhail Kolyada
- Han yan
1/2 (or thereabouts examples)
-javier Fernandez
-sergei Voronov.
Since you are allowed 1/4 underrotation (or an infintisimately small amount less than a quarter), 2.75-3.00 is considered acceptable in a triple axel with 3.25 being ideal and 2.75 being a very bad jump...

Thanks! Yay! And I guess for quad salchow and quad loop the rotations should be 3.25 rotations in the air?
Edit: Also, I think Trusova's quad toe loop is a little bit less than 3.25 rotations in the air, but the jump is quite good overall.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Thanks! Yay! And I guess for quad salchow and quad loop the rotations should be 3.25 rotations in the air?

4S,4T,4Lo 3.25 minimum (including infintisimately small amount under quater on landing), 3.5 ideal (backwards landing).

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Triple Axel Javier Fernandez

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OMG! Javier's triple axel! It is really with 1/2 pre-rotation. о.О

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Triple Axel Javier Fernandez

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OMG! Javier's triple axel! It is really with 1/2 pre-rotation. о.О

I don't think it's 1/2 pre-rotation, but that one is much more pre-rotated than other triple axels out there.

As for "genuine rotations"... here's where the pre-rotation + air time argument falls apart:

What about a skater who has zero pre-rotation on their jump (e.g. Kim's lutz). Does that mean she can underrotate or downgrade the landing because the lack of pre-rotation means that the air time "matches" the ideal?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Please share your opinion.
For example, I know that for quad toe loop the genuine rotations in the air should be 3.25. For quad flip and quad lutz the rotations should be 3.75 in the air (like Boyang's quad lutz). What about the triple axel (I guess it is 3.25 rotations in the air?)

3.75 on a quad flip and a quad lutz is near impossible, and only someone with perfect lutz picking technique without any pre-rotation can manage that - so you're making a special case for a select few skaters like Jin, or rather a not-so-subtle case against the Russian girls (yet again).

 

[macy]

Triple Axel Javier Fernandez

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youtu.be

OMG! Javier's triple axel! It is really with 1/2 pre-rotation. о.О

that's a skid entrance. not an uncommon technique taught when learning higher than a single axel. no penalty for this at all.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I don't think it's 1/2 pre-rotation, but that one is much more pre-rotated than other triple axels out there.

As for "genuine rotations"... here's where the pre-rotation + air time argument falls apart:

What about a skater who has zero pre-rotation on their jump (e.g. Kim's lutz). Does that mean she can underrotate or downgrade the landing because the lack of pre-rotation means that the air time "matches" the ideal?

Javis is half prerotation - that video isn't as clear as his 2015 short program 3A.

Prerotation makes a clean jump easier than a non prerotated clean jump.

But landing backwards on clean prerotated jump is much harder than landing forwards on a non prerotated jump.
Any skater with good doubles can throw themself into a triple jump and get 1/2 under.

Kim has about 1/4 prerotation (ISH), but landing a 1/2 prerotated Lutz clean is much harder than a 1/4 prerotated Lutz under or downgrade.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

that's a skid entrance. not an uncommon technique taught when learning higher than a single axel. no penalty for this at all.

There’s no deduction so long as the skid isn’t egregious. In that particular example it looked under 180 but he might have other examples that are more pre-rotated. Regardless a skidded entrance isn’t great technique and could/should incur a bit of a GOE reduction (or at least I would for this particular one). It would still get positive GOE from me - just not as much as it would were the takeoff less skidded.

Although some people seem to think skidding is a difficult/creative technique so a different person might award higher GOE!

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Alexandra Trusova's quad toe loop and Valieva's quad toe loop do not seem to be excessively pre-rotated to me. (And they are not with minimal pre-rotation either). I wonder by how many degrees these jumps are pre-rotated?
So far only the quad flips and the quad lutzes in the ladies skating seem to be excessively pre-rotated.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Alexandra Trusova's quad toe loop and Valieva's quad toe loop do not seem to be excessively pre-rotated to me. (And they are not with minimal pre-rotation either). I wonder by how many degrees these jumps are pre-rotated?
So far only the quad flips and the quad lutzes in the ladies skating seem to be excessively pre-rotated.

Because excessive prerotation on a lutz/flip is normal prerotation on a toeloop. Occasionally, you get less but not the norm.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Because excessive prerotation on a lutz/flip is normal prerotation on a toeloop. Occasionally, you get less but not the norm.

Yes, I know that. But still - how much does Trusova pre-rotate her quad toe loop? It is a bit different than Zhilina's quad toe loop which is textbook.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Quad lutz with minimal pre-rotation:

Вероника Жилина 4лутц

#alinazagitova#щербакова#alexandratrusova #AlenaKostornaia

youtu.be

 

[Alex65]

Yes, I know that. But still - how much does Trusova pre-rotate her quad toe loop? It is a bit different than Zhilina's quad toe loop which is textbook.

Not entirely new information, but still it is here: https://vk.com/basevalue?z=photo-61849383_456239529/album-61849383_00/rev