Help with blade choice for edge and foot work

[VFonICE]

Hi All,

I was hoping to get some advice on blade progression going forward. My current boot and blade combo are Risport Electra Light with Edea Rotation blade. I am aware that the blade especially isn’t recommended by skaters past basic skills as mentioned in some previous posts found here. Based on the advice given in some discussions, Edea Rotation is a very flat blade with 8ft rocker. I seem to handle it fine. My coach says I have really good edge work and great knee bend. Great axis for spins. I am an ex dancer, which most likely helps. I have strong legs and ankles. Once I have a good sharpen and good hollow, the edges are grippy and lovely and responsive.

However, should I be looking at another blade, better quality blade, to improve further? Or should I just stick with the blade I have? See below, for my blade needs.

What I am looking for: I am specifically looking for a blade for an edge work and footwork and don’t want to go with dance blade due to short length. I am in group classes currently - Skate UK Medals, so I need a blade to be able learn and do spins and jumps and progress with that a bit as well. However, after the medals, I will most likely get some private lessons with main concentration on foot work and edge work. Whether I will ever progress past single jumps, I don’t know really. I am a mature adult and don’t really want to push my luck and injure myself.

Naturally, my progression should be to either MK Pro or JW Coronation Ace. However, I am bit hesitant about the 7ft rocker specifically for edge and foot work as they are suppose to be disadvantageous for this due to rocker and can feel slippy, but are better for spins and jumps, which isn’t really my priority.

Your advice and detailed explanation why (ideally with examples), would be much appreciated.
Thank you.

 

[tuleytoes]

From my personal experience, edges and turns felt so much better and easier after switching from Aspire XP to JW Coronation Ace. Spins and jumps actually took longer for me to get used to. I can see how they might feel more slippy though.

 

[IceM]

I wouldn't worry about the 7' rocker too much as a beginner. It'll probably help you more than hinder you, depending on how far you progress with the blades you have now. But Ultima has the Legacy 8 with an 8' rocker, albeit with a pretty flat spin rocker, but that might not be an issue for you. You could also find some old Coronation Coments somewhere with an even flatter 8.5' rocker. Arguably, a flatter rocker is safer for jumps as it provides more balance on landings and in general.

If you want a blade with an 8' rocker and a decent more rounder spin rocker, then your options are really limited to only the more advanced blades. Which doesn't necessarily mean you couldn't get them for just edge and footwork. Gold Seals are pretty nice for just those as well: long tail, tapered edge, high stanchion all serve towards great edges and turns (especially if you're tall with wide feet). But you'll have to pay a pretty hefty premium for them. But then again, if you imagine using a blade, any blade, until it's truly done, you'll end up paying the price of a GS many times over anyway in sharpening costs, so there's that.

But you might be better off getting something like the MK Pro first, which has the longer tail and higher stanchion just like Gold Seals compared to Coro Aces or P99s, if that's something you want. Depending on where you are and what's available there, you could also consider getting intermediate blades from Paramount or Eclipse, which you can get in stainless steel, as opposed to traditional MK/JWs.

 

[VFonICE]

From my personal experience, edges and turns felt so much better and easier after switching from Aspire XP to JW Coronation Ace. Spins and jumps actually took longer for me to get used to. I can see how they might feel more slippy though.

Thank you for your input. I really appreciate it. Did you experience slippy edges yourself on JW Coronation Aces? Did you manage to solve it with deeper hollow? If so, what hollow did you have to go for and how often did you need to sharpen?

 

[VFonICE]

I wouldn't worry about the 7' rocker too much as a beginner. It'll probably help you more than hinder you, depending on how far you progress with the blades you have now. But Ultima has the Legacy 8 with an 8' rocker, albeit with a pretty flat spin rocker, but that might not be an issue for you. You could also find some old Coronation Coments somewhere with an even flatter 8.5' rocker. Arguably, a flatter rocker is safer for jumps as it provides more balance on landings and in general.

If you want a blade with an 8' rocker and a decent more rounder spin rocker, then your options are really limited to only the more advanced blades. Which doesn't necessarily mean you couldn't get them for just edge and footwork. Gold Seals are pretty nice for just those as well: long tail, tapered edge, high stanchion all serve towards great edges and turns (especially if you're tall with wide feet). But you'll have to pay a pretty hefty premium for them. But then again, if you imagine using a blade, any blade, until it's truly done, you'll end up paying the price of a GS many times over anyway in sharpening costs, so there's that.

But you might be better off getting something like the MK Pro first, which has the longer tail and higher stanchion just like Gold Seals compared to Coro Aces or P99s, if that's something you want. Depending on where you are and what's available there, you could also consider getting intermediate blades from Paramount or Eclipse, which you can get in stainless steel, as opposed to traditional MK/JWs.

Thank you for your detailed comment. I really appreciate it.
Did you yourself experience all blades mentioned in your comment? Which one did you find the best for edges and footwork? With any particular hollow?
After reading some comments on here I was leaning towards MK Pro, but was hesitant about the 7ft rocker. Obviously, I don’t have any experience at all other than my current boots and blades and prior to that, my very basic recreational “figure” skates or hockey recreational skates.
Also based on some previous comments about JW Gold Seals, it was kind of a scary thought to even considering them. And also the price tag…however if they would be worth it and make a big difference in my footwork and edges then for sure it wouldn’t be a waste of money. If I can handle them though is another matter
The availability for MK or JW isn’t a problem, as I am in the UK.
I haven’t looked at the Paramounts or Eclipse, nor have I considered Ultima Legacy 8 as an option, but I will look into these and do some research. This forum is so helpful…I am thankful for having it.
Do you have your favourites?
If there is an option to try any of these blades at my skate techs shop, I will definitely go for it.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thank you for your detailed comment. I really appreciate it.
Did you yourself experience all blades mentioned in your comment? Which one did you find the best for edges and footwork? With any particular hollow?
After reading some comments on here I was leaning towards MK Pro, but was hesitant about the 7ft rocker. Obviously, I don’t have any experience at all other than my current boots and blades and prior to that, my very basic recreational “figure” skates or hockey recreational skates.
Also based on some previous comments about JW Gold Seals, it was kind of a scary thought to even considering them. And also the price tag…however if they would be worth it and make a big difference in my footwork and edges then for sure it wouldn’t be a waste of money. If I can handle them though is another matter
The availability for MK or JW isn’t a problem, as I am in the UK.
I haven’t looked at the Paramounts or Eclipse, nor have I considered Ultima Legacy 8 as an option, but I will look into these and do some research. This forum is so helpful…I am thankful for having it.
Do you have your favourites?
If there is an option to try any of these blades at my skate techs shop, I will definitely go for it.

If you have the ability to go to the previous suggested JW or MK blades, and are in the UK then do it. Don't bother with Ultima/Paramount/Eclipse, too flat for what you want. I have worn or tested all blades (including ones that don't even exist anymore lol).

Good luck!

 

[VFonICE]

If you have the ability to go to the previous suggested JW or MK blades, and are in the UK then do it. Don't bother with Ultima/Paramount/Eclipse, too flat for what you want. I have worn or tested all blades (including ones that don't even exist anymore lol).

Good luck!

Thank you for your response. I really appreciate it.
So the 7ft rocker doesn’t compromise foot and edge work? Is the secret in good sharpening and hollow? Do you suggest any particular hollow and also manual honing after? Just trying to understand, what’s the science behind it?

If you look back, which one did you prefer? JW Coronation Ace, MK Pro for footwork and edges? Which one for spins and jumps?
Should I also consider the JW Gold Seal or that is not really need? If not, I would rather go with the 2 mentioned in the line above, especially due to the price tag.
I have a very good skate tech sharpening my edges, so he can make suggestions and make things work, once I try and I give him feedback, which I am really glad of.
Apologies for all the questions, but they really help. Thank you,

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thank you for your response. I really appreciate it.
So the 7ft rocker doesn’t compromise foot and edge work? Is the secret in good sharpening and hollow? Do you suggest any particular hollow and also manual honing after? Just trying to understand, what’s the science behind it?

If you look back, which one did you prefer? JW Coronation Ace, MK Pro for footwork and edges? Which one for spins and jumps?
Should I also consider the JW Gold Seal or that is not really need? If not, I would rather go with the 2 mentioned in the line above, especially due to the price tag.
I have a very good skate tech sharpening my edges, so he can make suggestions and make things work, once I try and I give him feedback, which I am really glad of.
Apologies for all the questions, but they really help. Thank you,

I just want to let you know I will answer you back later or tomorrow when I get a more of a chance. I'm extremely busy this weekend.

 

[SK4T3]

JW CA or MK Pro does de job:

I wouldn't worry about the 7' rocker too much as a beginner. It'll probably help you more than hinder you.

I always ask for the 7/16 Radius of Hollow (ROH); because it gives me the "bite" I like on the Ice at my rink.

 

[tstop4me]

Do you suggest any particular hollow and also manual honing after? Just trying to understand, what’s the science behind it?

* The actual geometry of blade edges is complex; but to simplify the discussion, we can consider the inside and outside edges to be a pair of V-shaped knife edges, as such:

V V

* The key parameter is the included angle between the sides of the V. The smaller the angle, the sharper the edge. All other factors being equal, a sharper edge leads to more bite into the ice; consequently, more control, higher friction, and less glide.

* All other blade parameters being equal, a larger radius of hollow (ROH) leads to a larger included angle; a smaller ROH leads to a smaller included angle.

* All other blade parameters being equal, for a fixed value of ROH, the included angle will vary as a function of the blade thickness (where blade thickness is measured as the transverse distance between the inside and outside edges): a thicker blade leads to a smaller included angle; a thinner blade leads to a larger included angle. This is of particular note for dance blades with slimline profiles. Also to a lesser extent for lightweight blades even with the same nominal profiles as traditional blades: some lightweight blades shed some weight by using a thinner blade, in addition to other factors.

* The included angle will also depend on side honing of the blade, whether deliberate or unintentional.

* Now, for a particular blade with a particular sharpening, the actual amount an edge will bite into the ice will depend on:

(a) The ice. Harder ice leads to less bite; softer ice leads to more bite.
(b) The weight of the skater. A heavier skater leads to more bite; a lighter skater leads to less bite.
(c) The skill of the skater. Advanced skaters can control the degree of bite by controlling how they press the edge into the ice: they can press harder when they need more bite and more control; they can press lighter when they need less bite and more glide. Beginner skaters haven’t learned to do this.

* So one strategy is to determine the largest ROH that still affords you good control over the maneuvers of interest to you. Caveat: There are practical considerations with large values of ROH; they are less tolerant of sharpening errors, and they likely will require more frequent sharpening.

 

[IceM]

Thank you for your detailed comment. I really appreciate it.
Did you yourself experience all blades mentioned in your comment? Which one did you find the best for edges and footwork? With any particular hollow?
After reading some comments on here I was leaning towards MK Pro, but was hesitant about the 7ft rocker. Obviously, I don’t have any experience at all other than my current boots and blades and prior to that, my very basic recreational “figure” skates or hockey recreational skates.
Also based on some previous comments about JW Gold Seals, it was kind of a scary thought to even considering them. And also the price tag…however if they would be worth it and make a big difference in my footwork and edges then for sure it wouldn’t be a waste of money. If I can handle them though is another matter
The availability for MK or JW isn’t a problem, as I am in the UK.
I haven’t looked at the Paramounts or Eclipse, nor have I considered Ultima Legacy 8 as an option, but I will look into these and do some research. This forum is so helpful…I am thankful for having it.
Do you have your favourites?
If there is an option to try any of these blades at my skate techs shop, I will definitely go for it.

I have skated on most JW blades back in the day, although I went to Gold Seals and P99s at a really young age, so I can't tell you much about that transition. I prefer Gold Seals over P99s mostly due to the longer tail and higher stanchion. The spin rocker is very similar between the two; Gold Seals being a little more "aggressive" in the spin rocker (meaning less "flat"). I now skate on Paramount 12"s in stainless steel that are supposed to be Gold Seal copies, but aren't exactly. But I enjoy them. However, I can tell you for a fact that the spin rocker on the 12" is even rounder than genuine GSs (I've measured them), so at least Paramounts are not particularly flat, like say, Ultima blades tend to be. And as far as what I've heard, Eclipse blades aren't as flat as Ultima either. Also, when you get more advanced, you can adapt to a different blade usually no problem, it's mostly just about personal preference. If you are not concerned about spins, the flatness of the spin rocker might not even matter to you that much. And even when it does, it's still a personal preference. A rounder rocker isn't better for everyone.

But having a decent blade with the correct placement and a good sharpening with even edges is really important, regardless of what blade you go for. I'd say that you shouldn't think that you need a particular blade to progress, but at the same time you shouldn't feel like you need to do some crazy advanced stuff just to justify skating on an "advanced" blade. I have friend that went from Coro Aces to Matrix Supreme, and she noticed a significant improvement, and she's not doing any thing crazy with them. Now, I didn't see her old blades, so it could be that they simply had a ruined rocker or whatnot, but I'm just saying that you could have a positive experience on an "advanced" blade even as an intermediate/beginner skater. Just remember that the blade won't make you a better skater, practice will.

As to the ROH, there's no magic to it. If you skate on a bit harder ice that's mostly used for hockey, you might want a little bit more aggressive ROH. 7/16" is the standard I'd say. 5/8" is more towards recreational or heavier skaters. I'm on a 7/16" and am on the heavier side (at least by figure skating standards, lol), while skating on ice that's also on the harder side, and it works fine for me (I have plenty of bite but can also control the blade well when I want to slide etc.). If you're particularly lightweight and skate on hard ice, perhaps focusing on spins and jumps, maybe you go for the very aggressive 3/8". But if you're unsure, either go for the 7/16", or start from a flatter ROH and deepen it as you wish (this will use up less material from the blade compared to going from a deeper hollow to a shallower one). If you feel like you want more bite, go for a deeper ROH, and vice versa.

tldr: get a good quality intermediate to advanced blade that you think suits you and your needs, and make sure you find a good tech that can set them up for you properly. And practice. If you have any more more questions, I can try to help. Good luck!

 

[VFonICE]

JW CA or MK Pro does de job:


I always ask for the 7/16 Radius of Hollow (ROH); because it gives me the "bite" I like on the Ice at my rink.

Thank you for your feedback. Much appreciated.
I also like my edges to have enough bite and be very responsive.
I suppose it also depends on the skate tech sharpening your skates as the same hollow might feel different from 2 different sharpeners. Must be to do with manual honing after?
Recreationally, I used to skate on 1/2 - it was ok for just basic stroking. After I started figure skating, I quickly found, I wasn’t feeling secure with that hollow. When I bought my first figure skating combo (Risport boots with Edea Rotation blades included) I told the tech in the shop to give me more bite as I really like to feel my edges and for them to be responsive. He did a great job but I don’t think he did much manual honing as I found it hard to stop initially. However, after 6-8 hours on ice, they felt great. The shop I got my skates from was quite a few hours away from me, so I was looking for a good figure skating tech near by. I found one, who is very good and closer to me. He did 7/16 for me but edges felt totally different. More like 1/2 but not as skiddy. I was able to stop on ice easy instantly. Glide was so good - I felt I was going for hours . So I asked him for 3/8 next time and they are very nice since. I feel secure on them. I don’t know what he does, but I feel that he is a magician, as I feel like that each part of the blade is very responsive to what I am doing…I feel like the actual blade (sharpening) is helping me to progress. Just giving him basic feedback about what I like and what I don’t and sharpening is ideal.
However, I am on basic blades so once I change, I am wondering if going to 7/16 might be ok for me as they are better quality and better steel so might feel a lot sharper.

 

[VFonICE]

* The actual geometry of blade edges is complex; but to simplify the discussion, we can consider the inside and outside edges to be a pair of V-shaped knife edges, as such:

V V

* The key parameter is the included angle between the sides of the V. The smaller the angle, the sharper the edge. All other factors being equal, a sharper edge leads to more bite into the ice; consequently, more control, higher friction, and less glide.

* All other blade parameters being equal, a larger radius of hollow (ROH) leads to a larger included angle; a smaller ROH leads to a smaller included angle.

* All other blade parameters being equal, for a fixed value of ROH, the included angle will vary as a function of the blade thickness (where blade thickness is measured as the transverse distance between the inside and outside edges): a thicker blade leads to a smaller included angle; a thinner blade leads to a larger included angle. This is of particular note for dance blades with slimline profiles. Also to a lesser extent for lightweight blades even with the same nominal profiles as traditional blades: some lightweight blades shed some weight by using a thinner blade, in addition to other factors.

* The included angle will also depend on side honing of the blade, whether deliberate or unintentional.

* Now, for a particular blade with a particular sharpening, the actual amount an edge will bite into the ice will depend on:

(a) The ice. Harder ice leads to less bite; softer ice leads to more bite.
(b) The weight of the skater. A heavier skater leads to more bite; a lighter skater leads to less bite.
(c) The skill of the skater. Advanced skaters can control the degree of bite by controlling how they press the edge into the ice: they can press harder when they need more bite and more control; they can press lighter when they need less bite and more glide. Beginner skaters haven’t learned to do this.

* So one strategy is to determine the largest ROH that still affords you good control over the maneuvers of interest to you. Caveat: There are practical considerations with large values of ROH; they are less tolerant of sharpening errors, and they likely will require more frequent sharpening.

Thank you for you detailed feedback. It’s greatly appreciated.
Wow, where do I start . So technical, but I like it (or at least, what I can understand of it)
I suppose firstly, you are saying the smaller the angle = sharper the edge = more bite and control. However, in next sentence it says: larger ROH = larger angle. If I correctly understand, do you mean: larger ROH = shallower hollow and smaller ROH = deeper hollow? Or are these 2 totally different things you are talking about? I just wanted to clarify this, so I don’t get it wrong. Thanks.
Since I started figure skating, along the way, I have lost weight so it would make sense that my previous edges based on my ROH would penetrate ice a lot less now, hence the change in how the edges feel. This would make sense really.
I will bear the last sentence in mind as well. As per my reply just above this one, once I get better quality blades, I am considering to start with 7/16 (most likely will be recommended by the manufacturer) and go from there. These will be made out of better steel so, the edges will feel a lot sharper.

 

[VFonICE]

I have skated on most JW blades back in the day, although I went to Gold Seals and P99s at a really young age, so I can't tell you much about that transition. I prefer Gold Seals over P99s mostly due to the longer tail and higher stanchion. The spin rocker is very similar between the two; Gold Seals being a little more "aggressive" in the spin rocker (meaning less "flat"). I now skate on Paramount 12"s in stainless steel that are supposed to be Gold Seal copies, but aren't exactly. But I enjoy them. However, I can tell you for a fact that the spin rocker on the 12" is even rounder than genuine GSs (I've measured them), so at least Paramounts are not particularly flat, like say, Ultima blades tend to be. And as far as what I've heard, Eclipse blades aren't as flat as Ultima either. Also, when you get more advanced, you can adapt to a different blade usually no problem, it's mostly just about personal preference. If you are not concerned about spins, the flatness of the spin rocker might not even matter to you that much. And even when it does, it's still a personal preference. A rounder rocker isn't better for everyone.

But having a decent blade with the correct placement and a good sharpening with even edges is really important, regardless of what blade you go for. I'd say that you shouldn't think that you need a particular blade to progress, but at the same time you shouldn't feel like you need to do some crazy advanced stuff just to justify skating on an "advanced" blade. I have friend that went from Coro Aces to Matrix Supreme, and she noticed a significant improvement, and she's not doing any thing crazy with them. Now, I didn't see her old blades, so it could be that they simply had a ruined rocker or whatnot, but I'm just saying that you could have a positive experience on an "advanced" blade even as an intermediate/beginner skater. Just remember that the blade won't make you a better skater, practice will.

As to the ROH, there's no magic to it. If you skate on a bit harder ice that's mostly used for hockey, you might want a little bit more aggressive ROH. 7/16" is the standard I'd say. 5/8" is more towards recreational or heavier skaters. I'm on a 7/16" and am on the heavier side (at least by figure skating standards, lol), while skating on ice that's also on the harder side, and it works fine for me (I have plenty of bite but can also control the blade well when I want to slide etc.). If you're particularly lightweight and skate on hard ice, perhaps focusing on spins and jumps, maybe you go for the very aggressive 3/8". But if you're unsure, either go for the 7/16", or start from a flatter ROH and deepen it as you wish (this will use up less material from the blade compared to going from a deeper hollow to a shallower one). If you feel like you want more bite, go for a deeper ROH, and vice versa.

tldr: get a good quality intermediate to advanced blade that you think suits you and your needs, and make sure you find a good tech that can set them up for you properly. And practice. If you have any more more questions, I can try to help. Good luck!

Thank you for your detailed feedback. It’s much appreciated.
I am kind of leaning towards the JW Coronation Ace or MK Pro as it’s very easy for me to get them here in the UK. They are intermediate blades and would do the job I think, based on all the advice provided. As you said, the 7ft rocker might actually help me, instead of being a disadvantage to me. As you said also, it’s all about having a good skate tech to sharpen the skates and make even edges, having good secure edges for what you are doing and keep up the sharpening on regular basis. And also, as you said, practice is the main and the most important thing, so ice time and off ice exercises are the way to go.
I am getting there and starting to understand the mechanics behind it. There is no miracle blade, which would make my footwork amazing without practice, coaching and trial and error.
I don’t think there is a need for me to invest into JW Gold Seals yet.
You will see my response to SK4T3, which describes the current ROH I have and what I have experienced along the way and that, I have a good skate tech and working with him towards my ideal sharpening scenario, based on the feedback I have provided to him. I think I am there now with him on an ideal scenario for the blade I have until I upgrade.
Thank you for taking time to respond multiple times.

 

[tstop4me]

So technical, but I like it (or at least, what I can understand of it)

It was intentionally technical, because I was responding to your request, "Just trying to understand, what’s the science behind it?" I have a mathematical analysis with the hollow geometry; it ties together all the points I wrote previously. If you're interested, let me know, and I'll send you a link via DM.

I suppose firstly, you are saying the smaller the angle = sharper the edge = more bite and control. However, in next sentence it says: larger ROH = larger angle. If I correctly understand, do you mean: larger ROH = shallower hollow and smaller ROH = deeper hollow? Or are these 2 totally different things you are talking about? I just wanted to clarify this, so I don’t get it wrong. Thanks.

Correct.

Larger ROH -> Shallower hollow -> Larger included angle -> Less sharp edge -> Less bite

Smaller ROH -> Deeper hollow -> Smaller included angle -> More sharp edge -> More bite

The main point is that grinding a hollow with various values of ROH is merely a convenient way of generating a pair of edges (inside/outside) with various values of included angle.

 

[VFonICE]

It was intentionally technical, because I was responding to your request, "Just trying to understand, what’s the science behind it?" I have a mathematical analysis with the hollow geometry; it ties together all the points I wrote previously. If you're interested, let me know, and I'll send you a link via DM.



Correct.

Larger ROH -> Shallower hollow -> Larger included angle -> Less sharp edge -> Less bite

Smaller ROH -> Deeper hollow -> Smaller included angle -> More sharp edge -> More bite

The main point is that grinding a hollow with various values of ROH is merely a convenient way of generating a pair of edges (inside/outside) with various values of included angle.

Thank you for your response and explanation. It’s much appreciated.
I thought I understood it correctly in the first instance, but wanted to double check. Make sense
I greatly appreciate your scientific input and I did ask for it in one of my previous posts. It will help me along the way to see the difference and monitor the change and how the blades behave, so thank you.

 

[VFonICE]

Thank you everyone for your input.
Just one more set of questions if I may and you still remember and could spot the difference (obviously comparing the like to like in size of the blade and same ROH), which blade worked/works for you better for step sequences comparing JW Coronation Ace and MK Pro? Which one was better for spins and twizzles? Which one did you prefer from these two for jumps? Anything else you could spot the difference in and why?
Do any of these blades work better for short and heavier skaters or there is no difference as such?
Just wondering if they work better for certain skating techniques as there is a slight difference between them (ie. Length of the blade)