How to recognize jumps in figure skating - video guide for newbies

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkcAmGCkjtA

I think it's the BEST video I've seen on that topic - and I've seen lots. I know, there is similar thread in Lutz corner - still, considering there are very few viewers usually - I think it's good idea to post it in the Edge. Maybe even make it a pinned thread here :biggrin:
Inb4 some will begin criticize it for the lack of "wrong technique" examples - I want to remind you that it meant for newbies. Trying to remember such massive pool of information is already confusing enough. Keeping it simple is a key to success.

P.S.: it would be good idea to find and post similar newbie video guides for spins, steps, underrotations - and in the end combine it in one big pinned educational thread for beginners :)
 

Dr. Jenn

Medalist
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Thanks for the link. :) I'm pretty good at identifying most jumps, but this video was really helpful in breaking down all the details and providing tips for identifying jumps, especially to non-skater fans like myself.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Wow, it was fast 0_0 Thanks for the links! :agree: I'll watch videos later - but I suppose they are good enough.
All that remains - waiting for URs video (which I think is the most difficult to find). Still it's crucial part of FS and newbies should know how to recognize them correctly. After that we can make educational topic of sorts ^_^
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EIRcc_u8kE
I found something about prerotation from the same author. That said, I don't particularly agree with the author since IMO he didn't show how to define a degree of prer propely enough.
What is prerotation? Prerotation is rotation on the ice before take off IN RELATION to LINE OF DIRECTION OF A JUMP. We don't need to know how much a skater rotated on the ice before take off. He can jump even from 10-turn twizzle - now what, you think he has 3600 degrees of prer? )) For what purpose we need to know a prerotation? Exactly - to know how much a skater STEALING from rotations in the AIR. It's not the same number as how much he rotated on the ice - they often different. Because most jumps has a curve entry before take off i.e. skater turns during prerotation too - changing the direction of a jump as well.
In other words to make this video useful and correct - he should defined direction of a jump before for each skater - drawing a line between take off and landing points on ice. And only then he should try to assess degree of prerotation by angle of a boot at the take off moment IN RELATION to that line. Else many skaters he thought had excessive prerotation - in fact they have not. Maybe I am wrong - but it's my opinion.
Also I didn't like his focus on "full-blade assist" crap. It's not that important for toe jumps IMO. Because is there impact by toe? It is. What happens next doesn't matter - a skater still uses toe impulse to jump - and that's what separate this jump from edge jumps. Whether he uses edge after that for prerotation or not - doesn't remove toe's role in the jump.
Why I post this video then, you ask me? Simple. It's because I found there extremely rare example of infamous "cheated take off" jump mentioned in ISU rules as a condition for downgrade - which differs drastically from what usual prer critics tries to put blame on. Even without this example it was obvious that this rule wasn't meant for so called "bad technique" 180 degree prer jumps - since many jumps have built-in 180 degree prerotation (salchow, loop, even for toe loop it's considered normal) and can't be done without it - however it is claimed there that the rule meant for ANY type of a jump with only specific example of a toeloop. If it's not a contradiction - I don't know what it is.
Still there are many people who tries to use the rule as a proof that 180 degree prer is something illegal. For such people I advice to watch the video fragment from 5:04 or from here https://youtu.be/5EIRcc_u8kE?t=304 :biggrin: See that 2A+2T combo which should be 2A+<<2T by that rule? That's it - that is the main goal of the "cheated take off" rule. It has nothing to do with prerotation - a skater just step over the ice like some kind of a lazy Euler - and then did 1T. I suppose it was known mistake at that time - however I think now the rule is somewhat obsolete since in modern fs nobody do it like that. Mystery is solved ;)

P.S.: I posted it here (and the post is not meant for newbies, probably) since I didn't want to create new topic - considering there was excellent topic for this - https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?78868-Pre-rotation
I have favor to mods to unlock it though since it was moved to archive.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I advice to watch the video fragment from 5:04 or from here https://youtu.be/5EIRcc_u8kE?t=304 :biggrin: See that 2A+2T combo which should be 2A+<<2T by that rule? That's it - that is the main goal of the "cheated take off" rule. ... I suppose it was known mistake at that time - however I think now the rule is somewhat obsolete since in modern fs nobody do it like that.

Not true. That mistake still exists and is relatively common at lower levels and needs to be penalized there so that skaters learn how to do correct toe loops before they get to elite levels.

Which is why the "toe axel" is relatively rare at the elite level -- because IJS does not allow them to get away with that technique at lower levels and lets them know exactly what they were penalized for.

You don't have elite skaters who use that technique for all their toe loops. But you will see it occasionally as a one-time mistake from a skater who lands a first jump with little flow and knows they need a combination to get full credit for the jump (whether for Zayak reasons in the freeskate or because it's their last chance to complete a combination in the SP). So they try to add a double toe but aren't in position at that specific time on that specific occasion to do so without turning forward.

Here's a pre-IJS example from a skater who was perfectly capable of doing a toe loop as the second jump in a combination, but was unable to do so at that particular moment because of a bad landing on the first jump. It happens sometimes.
 

cohen-esque

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Not true. That mistake still exists and is relatively common at lower levels and needs to be penalized there so that skaters learn how to do correct toe loops before they get to elite levels.

Which is why the "toe axel" is relatively rare at the elite level -- because IJS does not allow them to get away with that technique at lower levels and lets them know exactly what they were penalized for.
This is topical since it's now JGP season and we do see toe axels on the junior level. But it isn't just toeloops that get dinged for forward takeoffs: yesterday in the junior ladies SP, Giorgia Isabella Sechi was downgraded on her 2Lo, which I don't think looks like it really landed forward. And it isn't restricted to singles skaters, either: some pairs have been called for throw jumps, like this one, which definitely did not land forwards.

Also in seniors, I've almost positive Mai Asada was downgraded for a toe axel on the Grand Prix once, but the calling protocols at the time make it difficult to tell.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
gkelly
cohen-esque
Em.. ok. Do you have nothing to say about other points I made? I wasn't talking about "toe axels" just for the sake of it, you know? :rolleye:
 

cohen-esque

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
gkelly
cohen-esque
Em.. ok. Do you have nothing to say about other points I made? I wasn't talking about "toe axels" just for the sake of it, you know? :rolleye:
We weren’t responding to your other points. We were saying that one point in particular was wrong.
 
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