Ice dance rule changes 2014-2015

caitie

Medalist
Joined
Sep 14, 2013
Take a look at the makeup of the ISU Dance Committee and you should have a pretty good idea why.

What do you mean? I don't mean that snarkily or anything, I'm honestly curious.

Here is the makeup of the Dance Committee (I think?):

Ice Dance

Chair
Halina Gordon-Poltorak
Poland

Members
Robert Joseph Horen
USA

Gilles Vandenbroeck
France

Alla Shekhovtsova
Russia

(appointed Skater)
Sylvia Nowak-Trebacka
Poland

(appointed coach)
John Dunn
Spain

I really can't spot any common interest among these people...
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Well after they let the horse out of the proverbial gate already, what did we expect them to do? :rofl: But seriously I think in the very near future we're going to go back to either the OSP or OD. Wouldn't that be fun? Some of the pattern dances are starting to look dull...JMHO. But which do you guys think will be more interesting the OSP or the OD?
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
less lift ? thats depressing
isn't Ice dance a sport ? athleticism must come first :disapp:

Hawayek / Baker and Hurtado / Diaz must be thrilled

Two people skating apart and sometimes keep hands and doing difficult acrobatic lifts are already in pair cathegory. While to have another cathegory with the same content? Ice Dance was always a half sport and a half art.
(And by the way single skaters takes themselves like artists as well, not only like sportsman, because everything what is connected with music and dance is partly art, but dancers were always a cathegory where art played major role...but it was mostly lost in past years).

More couples will look happy - everybody who makes points mainly on lifts will be sad and skaters and dancers who are great in others aspects will be neutral or satisfied.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Ice Dancing after all is more art, lol

I wonder if they did this shift considering D/W and V/M have retired, D/W pushed the envelope in innovative lifts
but since they retired they want now all dancers do have equal chances ? its still not right
even I/K have been pushing difficult lifts, this new rule is a step backwards in ice dancing

Yes, I&K were pushing difficult lifts...and they fell from the lift at Nationals and many times their lifts were not stable, Nikita earned many and many bruises from Lena's blades...especially watching galas is frightening every time.


...this is a moment in a second lift from FD, where Lena put wrongly her blade on Nikita's thigh, so coming out of the lift, she cut him (also Nikita's hand on Lena's breast is not looking like well done lift)


...another lift - the third from FD, but this time Lena moved wrongly and for about two seconds she sits on NIKITA'S NECK, not shoulders - she could break his neck and kill him if he wouldn't have so strong neck muscles.


...this is the third lift as well, this time Lena is out of balance and almost fell from Nikita's neck/shoulders

I&K's lifts look like the couple is still not comfortable in it and it can be very dangerous.
So maybe those distressing moments in I&K's lifts also helped an idea of having one lift less.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I would like I&K's lifts better if they didn't involve knee slides and sitting on shoulders. Somehow, those features don't make me think either "ooo difficult" or "ooo how fitting to the dance & music that is!"

I do love Elena' s flying swan position in their combo lift; but Nikita' s wobbly one foot position while she is doing it not so much.

I would not be surprised if their lift difficulties were not responsible for the Russian member of the tech committee being OK with this rule change.
 
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WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Yes, I&K were pushing difficult lifts...and they fell from the lift at Nationals and many times their lifts were not stable, Nikita earned many and many bruises from Lena's blades...especially watching galas is frightening every time.


...this is a moment in a second lift from FD, where Lena put wrongly her blade on Nikita's thigh, so coming out of the lift, she cut him (also Nikita's hand on Lena's breast is not looking like well done lift)


...another lift - the third from FD, but this time Lena moved wrongly and for about two seconds she sits on NIKITA'S NECK, not shoulders - she could break his neck and kill him if he wouldn't have so strong neck muscles.


...this is the third lift as well, this time Lena is out of balance and almost fell from Nikita's neck/shoulders

I&K's lifts look like the couple is still not comfortable in it and it can be very dangerous.
So maybe those distressing moments in I&K's lifts also helped an idea of having one lift less.


Or maybe it's a way of protecting their potential points.

Doris, thank you. I sometimes feel like we're heading into a period of The Emperor's "Clothing."
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Possibly. But like all things, this too shall pass. Sometimes that is a sad statement, but not always. ;)

I will spend the next quad being happy for PBs and SBs of dancers whose programs I like and studiously ignoring their overall placements.
 

caitie

Medalist
Joined
Sep 14, 2013
I wonder if they did this shift considering D/W and V/M have retired, D/W pushed the envelope in innovative lifts
but since they retired they want now all dancers do have equal chances ?

V/M were right there with the difficult, show-stopping lifts along with D/W this quad, just not so much this season. (I think you meant to include them anyway, it sounds like it from the beginning of your sentence...)

I wonder if they are trying to stop the inclination to pair teams with pairs-like height disparities, like Chock and Bates and Coomes and Buckland? That seemed to be the direction ice dancing was moving in, and they may want to try and stop that since couples of more similar height are more aesthetically pleasing and have better lines?

Lifts are also something that really separate the well-funded top teams from the middle-tier teams. D/W and V/M have discussed working with lift specialists, sometimes pairs coaches, I/K worked with acrobats, etc. You notice some of the other teams come up with fewer new lifts every season and they are usually less acrobatic and intricate. I notice teams who train together also end up with very similar looking lifts.
 

hyperinflation

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
I notice teams who train together also end up with very similar looking lifts.

yep

also in 2012 for the latin sd, i remember the top 3 canton teams had their twizzles, midline ss and rhumba sequences in essentially the exact same places

marina gurl you gettin lazy

right because this is what FS needs more dance
and becoming a sport mockery that Ice Dancing is already is

what are you babbling about now

ice dance is pretty much the only discipline that's increased in popularity in the last ten years. it's gone from a eurotrash mess no one took seriously to a marquee event in two quads
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
yep

also in 2012 for the latin sd, i remember the top 3 canton teams had their twizzles, midline ss and rhumba sequences in essentially the exact same places

marina gurl you gettin lazy



what are you babbling about now

ice dance is pretty much the only discipline that's increased in popularity in the last ten years. it's gone from a eurotrash mess no one took seriously to a marquee event in two quads

Ice Dancing is rarely visible, only got some good reception in the US because of D/W win
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
yep

also in 2012 for the latin sd, i remember the top 3 canton teams had their twizzles, midline ss and rhumba sequences in essentially the exact same places

marina gurl you gettin lazy



what are you babbling about now

ice dance is pretty much the only discipline that's increased in popularity in the last ten years. it's gone from a eurotrash mess no one took seriously to a marquee event in two quads

Marina is less guilty of that than Igor. To me the quintessential 'cookie cutter Detroit program' was Guignard & Fabbri's Romeo & Juliet. I don't think there was a single original move in the entire program, down to the music cuts which simply pasted together the two most "audience tested" R&J music selections, even if they didn't make much sense together. Marina at least seems good for one really good program a year (this year, for me, it was Voir's SD).

The Emperor's Eurotrash Clothing indeed. Europe has been waiting two quads for their chance to wrest attention and control from the North American contingent, and they're seizing it with a vengeance.

Well you're right, Doris. It is what it is and there will always be bright spots. It's just a real shame because this was the first Olympics I can remember where people I talked to who only watch Olympic skating were genuinely excited about ID. And what really excited them were the lifts and the twizzles. Can you honestly say anyone started a conversation about I/K with "Wow, those step sequences!" I can't imagine the same "buzz" with watered down tech content and a return to acting over athleticism. Thank goodness for the internet, where we finally get a chance to see all the programs, because those bright spots are usually from teams--like Hurtado and Diaz--who would never show up on the usual primetime coverage.

ETA: Oh, and I absolutely cackled with your PJ "Kraft Mac & Cheese" Kwong bit. Yes, she is that transparent.
 

hyperinflation

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Ice Dancing is rarely visible, only got some good reception in the US because of D/W win

lol @ you, don't injure yourself thinking too much..

Well you're right, Doris. It is what it is and there will always be bright spots. It's just a real shame because this was the first Olympics I can remember where people I talked to who only watch Olympic skating were genuinely excited about ID. And what really excited them were the lifts and the twizzles. Can you honestly say anyone started a conversation about I/K with "Wow, those step sequences!" I can't imagine the same "buzz" with watered down tech content and a return to acting over athleticism. Thank goodness for the internet, where we finally get a chance to see all the programs, because those bright spots are usually from teams--like Hurtado and Diaz--who would never show up on the usual primetime coverage.

getting rid of lifts is problematic. the isu obviously doesn't want ice dance to become 'pairs for couples who can't jump' which is the direction ice dance has been going in. but lifts and twizzles are highlights of a program for most people and i can think of only the rare program where the choreography and the quality has been so on point that i wouldn't have cared if there were fewer lifts

i like twizzles more than lifts though. MORE TWIZZLES I SAY
 

caitie

Medalist
Joined
Sep 14, 2013
Twizzles are the best. I love that they are the most stressful element, you almost want to hold your breath when the teams do them. It's the closest thing ice dance has to jumping!

If they ever try to take out the twizzles, we should riot. Have a change.org twizzles petition, trend #savethetwizzles, smuggle TWIZZLES 4EVER LONG LIVE THE TWIZZLES signs into the front row of the audience, etc. I don't care if the purists hate them, too bad!!
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
LOL! If twizzles, spins, and lifts are eliminated from ice dance, we are back to simply compulsory dances. Talk about boring. It will kill ice dance for sure.

Lifts should definitely not be eliminated. I didn't say twizzles should be eliminated either, just the full twizzle sequences as a required element are unncessary. Why must this sequence be in every single dance? It makes little sense. You could simply require a couple twizzle turns, in both directions, to be included in one of the footwork sequences in order to achieve the highest level.

That said, keeping twizzle sequences as a stand-alone required element is far better than keeping spins, at least with the current rules. The spins take far too long and distract from the flow and choreography and intepretation of programs 99% of the time. This is even more true in pairs skating. The rules desperately need to be changed.
 

Ryan O

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
North Americans ? No more D/W and V/M who did difficult lifts

Well, I hope the ISU Dance committee isn't changing the lift rules solely because of D&W and V&M's upcoming departure.

Btw, G&P have some interesting lifts. Their stationary lift in the Hitchcock FD has gotten a lot of attention this season because it is kind of like a spin as well as a lift. I think it received Level 4's at 4 Continents. Poirier has worked with Christopher Dean since 2010, and so he has also picked up some interesting moves from Dean that are similar to the type T&D used.
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Honestly, of all the changes they could have made, this is bizarre and disappointing to me. To me, the cap on lifts at 6 seconds is already a buzz kill (I do favor a limit, but would make it higher, at least 8 and possibly 10 seconds) and I think that, as has been said, we will now never see a lift longer than 6 seconds because this will likely be the de facto end of combination lifts.
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
I think that having one less lift makes sense because there were so many of them. But if they want to remove something, why not the spin which has NOTHING to do with Ice Dance and shouldn't be there in the first place?

Also,they need to let the compulsory portions go. People said that the compulsories were like the musical scales of ice dance. Yes, its important that every musician practices their scales but the general audience doesnot pay to go to a concert and watch a musician play scales!

You can't govern a sport by doing 'what the audience wants to watch.' Yes, it's something to keep at the back of your head but you need to think about the integrity first and foremost. Following the 'pleasing the audience' way of thinking, skating would turn into some 'pro' cheesefest from hell. Also, people might think that they want to see A or B but not think about the wider implications of that.

Compulsory dances force skaters to execute steps precisely in time to the music and without any added speed building movements in between. They ensure Ice Dancers have to keep on all the things that are essential to Ice Dance.

As for them being boring, if you're a good team and are confident doing them, you can add little flourishes like head and arm movements and really sell them well. As a compromise, you could work on developing new ones that would be more interesting. I thought Finnstep was really fun.

I would add one more keypoint so that it's 4 for Lv4, 3 for Lv3, 2 for Lv2, 1 for Lv1 and 0 for LvB.

Twizzle sequences need to go away as a required element. Twizzle turns can already be featured plenty in footwork sequences. Let teams do stand-alone twizzle sequences as an optional element in the FD if they want to.

They should stay. They are the hardest turns in skating and the ones executed in footwork sequences are nowhere near as complex. They are the jump equivalent in Ice Dance. The level of difficulty means they are really hard to execute to a high standard or even cleanly. They provide the suspense and they are easy to understand for the general audience, well to an extent anyway.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Lifts should definitely not be eliminated. I didn't say twizzles should be eliminated either, just the full twizzle sequences as a required element are unncessary. Why must this sequence be in every single dance? It makes little sense. You could simply require a couple twizzle turns, in both directions, to be included in one of the footwork sequences in order to achieve the highest level.

That said, keeping twizzle sequences as a stand-alone required element is far better than keeping spins, at least with the current rules. The spins take far too long and distract from the flow and choreography and intepretation of programs 99% of the time. This is even more true in pairs skating. The rules desperately need to be changed.

Disagree completely. Intricate entrances, exits and varied positions of spins are far more attractive to watch than an extra 30 seconds or more of footwork. Nor do I think it detracts from the music unless the music is not cut to enhance this aspect of the program. That's why Meryl & Charlie always do such great elements. Charlie knows how to cut the music to show an element to its best advantage.
 
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