Ideas for how to rescore figure skating?

DSQ

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Country
United-Kingdom
This. I would like to see on the scoring sheet them checking off the bullet points they are applying. Then adding the total up at the bottom. So you don't get to just write +3, you need to check off the bullets you are giving. IE. Good Height and Distance, difficult entry, good flow etc. Because I also feel like GOE is given arbitrarily. Yes it's subjective, but I want to see you giving a bullet for good flow then the jump lands with zero flow at all.

That’s just not feasible in the time they have between elements.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
That’s just not feasible in the time they have between elements.

The only way I could see something like that working would be if judges make notes on their paper about which bullet points and which errors they are applying, and then input them into a more complex computer screen after the program is over.

If they each come up with a shorthand that matches one mark per bullet or error, it's a lot quicker to write 3 or 4 marks right next to each other on a paper than to move the finger or pencil eraser or mouse to different parts of an input screen.
 

halulupu

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2017
Who jumps best should be a tiebreaker between 2 equally skilled skaters.Right now skating skill is a tiebreaker between equally good jumpers. The sport should be renamed ice jumping.
U also seem to miss some points. And who is going to decide based on what criteria who is the better skilled skater? The PCS system which we have now but more important? Corrupt system juhuu-public will not take seriously "the sport" anymore. Its easy to say the current system is flawed but not having a better idea or just "the better quality skater". And isnt it quite a tremendous quality of skating to land a quadruple jump? And by the way just because we all(me included) perceive kostis skating style more beautiful as trusova it doesn't mean she has no quality skating. Just because she not the typical princess skater type. And by the way its called figure skating and really noone would watch real figures anymore (beside some diehard fans). Why? Cause it boring very
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
U also seem to miss some points. And who is going to decide based on what criteria who is the better skilled skater? The PCS system which we have now but more important? Corrupt system juhuu-public will not take seriously "the sport" anymore. Its easy to say the current system is flawed but not having a better idea or just "the better quality skater". And isnt it quite a tremendous quality of skating to land a quadruple jump? And by the way just because we all(me included) perceive kostis skating style more beautiful as trusova it doesn't mean she has no quality skating. Just because she not the typical princess skater type. And by the way its called figure skating and really noone would watch real figures anymore (beside some diehard fans). Why? Cause it boring very
I enjoy jumps just as much as anyone. I'm simply saying the jumping is grossly overvalued compared to other aspects. Everything in skating is subjective, including whether jumps are rotated or not. Acting like jumping is the only true element and everything else is opinion is incorrect. Judging corruption is a given regardless of yhe system.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Skating corectly with proper form and speed gracefully requires MORE athletic skill than jumping.

If that's the case then the athletes are being coached poorly, because they should be spending time working on jumps since those are an easier way to accrue points.
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Who jumps best should be a tiebreaker between 2 equally skilled skaters.Right now skating skill is a tiebreaker between equally good jumpers. The sport should be renamed ice jumping.

Judges (ISU can introduce) can use tracking devices to evaluate speed maximum, average and ice coverage. The numbers can be use as an input for the SS and CO marks.
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
Remove structural NEPOTISM ("powerful federation"/"coach"/"reputation" scoring).

That's really it, in a nutshell, if anyone wanted to see true and lasting improvement in fair outcomes.

Putting lipstick on a pig will not make it pretty, and tweaking ISU scoring - which was built to be easily gamed, by design - will not fix anything, unless the underlying rot of preferential treatment is addressed first.
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
And if you go a bit further (not technologically necessarily) you can introduce various sensors on the blades. The problem here is to assure than no one will hack the sensors, the blades have to be certified, lets say.
Then you can evaluate easily, under rotations, number of turns, how deep they where, speed during step sequences etc, even jump height and distance.
 

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom
Record Breaker
Joined
May 10, 2010
10.0 Scaling Concept for TES

-- Take the 10 highest TES scores in the prior year and average them. Let's say for the men's discipline, that's 110 TES. (If an older average from a prior year is higher, then keep the older average.)

-- Then convert that number to a 10.0 scale. In this example, this would mean that earning 110 points or higher becomes the shiny new 10.0 for TES. (This effectively caps the TES to PCS but still rewards technical skaters with high TES marks.)

-- The PCS can remain the same as it is since it's already scaled to a 10.0, except that the .25 differential between scores can become .1 instead to average the five PCS categories more easily. (I would like there to be fewer PCS categories, but again I'm just focusing on this scaling idea instead.)

-- So now, when scores are displayed, you can see each judges' score WITH their nationality in easy-to-understand 10.0 numbers. So it would be something like the following:

|||||| J1 -- J2 -- J3 -- J4
TES 8.6 - 8.3 - 8.5 - 8.1 ...
PCS 8.3 - 8.6 - 8.3 - 7.9 ...

-- You could also display the base value of a skater's program in terms of the 10.0 scale. So Jason Brown's base value for his free skate at Skate America was 66.11 which when converted to the scaling is a 6.0 BV when using the 10.0 scale.

-- (If there are 9 judges) Drop the two highest and two lowest TES and PCS scores. Total the rest up and that's the final score for the skater.

-- So to continue this example using Jason Brown's FS at Skate America, the display for Judges 1-3 would be (after all the math):

(Scaled) BV 6.0
|||||||||||||||-- J1 -- J2 -- J3...
(Scaled) TES - 7.4 - 7.2 - 7.2...
(Scaled) PCS - 9.2 - 9.2 - 9.1...
||||||||||||||| CZE -CHN-RUS...
-----

That's generally how the scaling idea would work. We can finagle things here and there to make the scaling better or the display better, but yeah, that's my concept. It makes things clearer to the audience, shows more relevant info, gets rid of some of the anonymity, makes TES scaled to PCS better, and brings back a bit of the magic of hearing each score by the announcer.
 

kwanatic

Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
Its exactly the way a sport should be judged. Everything else would be a scandal. Art is not objectively mearsurable hence it doesn't make sense to force (the current PCS system is already a stretch). It doesn't away any of aljonas beautiful performance if she gets second. Guys if u are only interested in the beauty of the skating go whatch shows or ice dance

What's the point of calling it ice skating if the only thing that matters are the jumps? The US does a competition during the off-season called the Aerial Challenge where the goal of the event is the execution of jumps. There is no evaluation of skating skills, balance, movement, posture, interpretation or any of that...it's literally nothing but skaters doing jumps. For those who think valuing artistry lessens the idea of skating as a sport, maybe this is the solution: ice jumping instead of ice skating.

Yes, figure skating is a sport. However, it is a unique sport that requires both athleticism AND artistry. They should be weighted more evenly than they are. Valuing one more over the other makes the whole damn thing rather pointless. If you can come out and make everyone cry with your performance and yet you are unable to deliver the technical side, that's an issue. Likewise if all you can do is skate end to end checking off boxes and reeling off jumps, that's a problem too.
 

Miller

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
10.0 Scaling Concept for TES

-- Take the 10 highest TES scores in the prior year and average them. Let's say for the men's discipline, that's 110 TES. (If an older average from a prior year is higher, then keep the older average.)

-- Then convert that number to a 10.0 scale. In this example, this would mean that earning 110 points or higher becomes the shiny new 10.0 for TES. (This effectively caps the TES to PCS but still rewards technical skaters with high TES marks.)

-- The PCS can remain the same as it is since it's already scaled to a 10.0, except that the .25 differential between scores can become .1 instead to average the five PCS categories more easily. (I would like there to be fewer PCS categories, but again I'm just focusing on this scaling idea instead.)

-- So now, when scores are displayed, you can see each judges' score WITH their nationality in easy-to-understand 10.0 numbers. So it would be something like the following:

|||||| J1 -- J2 -- J3 -- J4
TES 8.6 - 8.3 - 8.5 - 8.1 ...
PCS 8.3 - 8.6 - 8.3 - 7.9 ...

-- You could also display the base value of a skater's program in terms of the 10.0 scale. So Jason Brown's base value for his free skate at Skate America was 66.11 which when converted to the scaling is a 6.0 BV when using the 10.0 scale.

-- (If there are 9 judges) Drop the two highest and two lowest TES and PCS scores. Total the rest up and that's the final score for the skater.

-- So to continue this example using Jason Brown's FS at Skate America, the display for Judges 1-3 would be (after all the math):

(Scaled) BV 6.0
|||||||||||||||-- J1 -- J2 -- J3...
(Scaled) TES - 7.4 - 7.2 - 7.2...
(Scaled) PCS - 9.2 - 9.2 - 9.1...
||||||||||||||| CZE -CHN-RUS...
-----

That's generally how the scaling idea would work. We can finagle things here and there to make the scaling better or the display better, but yeah, that's my concept. It makes things clearer to the audience, shows more relevant info, gets rid of some of the anonymity, makes TES scaled to PCS better, and brings back a bit of the magic of hearing each score by the announcer.

I like this idea.

A couple of questions. Would 10.0 be the highest TES value - why not allow 10.something, or even 11.something - the skater's got 11 out of 10! For the difference it makes I think this would be OK, plus presumably like in 6.0 you'd be announcing the scores separately so that you can compare one judges technical or performance score with another.

Also, presumably you would have scaling in the SP, this time out of 55 TES rather than the 110 for the LP. However you would have to divide the final total by 2 so that it's half the value of the LP. Alternatively why not have the SP out of 10, and the LP out of 20, it works fine for ski-jumping 'style marks', so 20 would be OK for TES/PCS in LPs, plus no need for some strange division that people might not quite understand.
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
If that's the case then the athletes are being coached poorly, because they should be spending time working on jumps since those are an easier way to accrue points.
It depends if you care more about improving as a skater or getting more points. There is always a balance there.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
I enjoy jumps just as much as anyone. I'm simply saying the jumping is grossly overvalued compared to other aspects. Everything in skating is subjective, including whether jumps are rotated or not. Acting like jumping is the only true element and everything else is opinion is incorrect. Judging corruption is a given regardless of yhe system.

Jumps are the most difficult elements, in particular the harder triples and the quads. Thus they score the most points. Sounds simple to me
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
What's the point of calling it ice skating if the only thing that matters are the jumps? The US does a competition during the off-season called the Aerial Challenge where the goal of the event is the execution of jumps. There is no evaluation of skating skills, balance, movement, posture, interpretation or any of that...it's literally nothing but skaters doing jumps. For those who think valuing artistry lessens the idea of skating as a sport, maybe this is the solution: ice jumping instead of ice skating.

Yes, figure skating is a sport. However, it is a unique sport that requires both athleticism AND artistry. They should be weighted more evenly than they are. Valuing one more over the other makes the whole damn thing rather pointless. If you can come out and make everyone cry with your performance and yet you are unable to deliver the technical side, that's an issue. Likewise if all you can do is skate end to end checking off boxes and reeling off jumps, that's a problem too.

I'd like to know where in the rulebook it states you have to be artistic
Or what even constitutes artistic?
Or where it is important to make your audience emotional?

Skaters perform technical elements with a competent degree of presentation. Just like Gymnastics
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Yes, figure skating is a sport. However, it is a unique sport that requires both athleticism AND artistry. They should be weighted more evenly than they are. Valuing one more over the other makes the whole damn thing rather pointless. If you can come out and make everyone cry with your performance and yet you are unable to deliver the technical side, that's an issue. Likewise if all you can do is skate end to end checking off boxes and reeling off jumps, that's a problem too.

They are intended to be weighted evenly. When you have a skater who pushes the envelope and attempts remarkable difficulty, and a scoring system that has no ceiling on technical merit, she is going to do well when she's successful on those elements. What Trusova does is really off the charts and miles ahead of what anyone (except Anna) is doing. I don't think the answer is "we don't want a technical skater to win, so let's diminish the value of the particular elements she does," or "let's not allow her to do so many difficult elements so she won't win." I don't understand why everyone thinks artistic skaters have to stand atop the podium; we can enjoy their performances but acknowledge that the difficulty is far less than those winning programs.
 

el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
They are intended to be weighted evenly. When you have a skater who pushes the envelope and attempts remarkable difficulty, and a scoring system that has no ceiling on technical merit, she is going to do well when she's successful on those elements. What Trusova does is really off the charts and miles ahead of what anyone (except Anna) is doing. I don't think the answer is "we don't want a technical skater to win, so let's diminish the value of the particular elements she does," or "let's not allow her to do so many difficult elements so she won't win." I don't understand why everyone thinks artistic skaters have to stand atop the podium; we can enjoy their performances but acknowledge that the difficulty is far less than those winning programs.


I'm afraid that I for one do not acknowledge that one more revolution in the air is so much more difficult than performances that involve superior skating skills, spins and other equally impressive (to me) athletic feats.

I understand that some fans love jumps. Yay for jumps:hap10: But yay for all the other equally difficult feats on the ice. :hap10:

I want "pushing the envelope" "advancing the sport" and all similar language for feats other than revolutions in the air to be rewarded. Will it be? I doubt it. But a gal can dream:biggrin:
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
How pretty someone skates isn't advancing sport, although it is advancing art.
Skating rewards the big tricks precisely because it is a sport, with athletes competing.
Figure skating has been criticised a lot for being a beauty pageant on ice, so is there any wonder why the jumps have increased in importance?

So many of my friends do not share my love of figure skating, instead openly giggling at the costumes and and the way the skaters present their programs.

I like artistry but I do not see why it is held to a certain standard.
I think Trusova for example does have artistry, in her own unique way.
Lots of people criticise Liza for her "empty hand signal" style of presentation. I think there are ways she can certainly improve to boost her PCS in the current system (which heavily rewards cramming in transitions), but who decides exactly how her artistry is inferior to anyone else's?
She just does it her way in her own style.
PCS will never really be fair, it inherently can't be because of how subjective it is.

Not everyone has the performance skills of an Alena Kostornaia, and not everyone has the jumping ability Trusova has

And I like it that way.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I'm afraid that I for one do not acknowledge that one more revolution in the air is so much more difficult than performances that involve superior skating skills, spins and other equally impressive (to me) athletic feats.

What is stopping everyone from doing quads then? Because difficult jumps are beneath "artistic" skaters?

Alena is better than Trusova at a lot of things, in part, because she isn't spending time getting quads competition-ready. Alena gets better GOE on most elements because they are performed better. But we should acknowledge there is a huge difference in difficulty. Sasha does not do one more quad than Alena, or two more quads, or even three more quads. She does four more, and each one adds a ton of risk.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
How pretty someone skates isn't advancing sport, although it is advancing art.

Leaving aside prettiness, look at the difficulty of IJS-era spins and step sequences and pair and dance lifts and dance twizzles compared to earlier eras.

Many fans would say that the earlier elements were prettier/more artistic. But I think there is little question that the recent elements are more difficult. Is that not advancing the sport on a technical level?

Which is more difficult -- a program with ca. 2000 jump content and 2020 other content, or vice versa?

It probably depends on the skater.
 

el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
What is stopping everyone from doing quads then? Because difficult jumps are beneath "artistic" skaters?

Alena is better than Trusova at a lot of things, in part, because she isn't spending time getting quads competition-ready. Alena gets better GOE on most elements because they are performed better. But we should acknowledge there is a huge difference in difficulty. Sasha does not do one more quad than Alena, or two more quads, or even three more quads. She does four more, and each one adds a ton of risk.

What is stopping everyone from doing perfect spins, then? Displaying wonderful edges and beautiful control? Cause, ya know, it’s so darn easy;);

I just happened to jump off on your post as the last one in the series, so I don’t really mean to be specifically arguing here and I don’t know that we’ll agree. Just always putting in my plug for the athleticism of other elements.:)

And I can’t really speak to the ladies because I don’t watch them, haven’t seen Sasha more than twice(?) maybe. I’ll watch her skate in the GP just because she’ll probably win, but that’s going to be it. Too many other skaters to watch:biggrin:
 
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