If judges were strict with prerotation? | Golden Skate

If judges were strict with prerotation?

DancingCactus

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 17, 2022
Can someone who is knowledgeable abut the tech aspects clarify who the worst pre-rotation offenders are at the moment? I always hear it's the Russians, but I'm not good enough at spotting it to judge for myself.
 

Alchamei

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2014
I don't if it's possible, but to answer the question in the title:
- There would be only 4 skaters with ratified 4lz in this world.
- There would be just a few women with actual triples.
Depends about what prerotation we're talking about. Today, even 180 degrees is considered normal, but ideal is 90 for jumps like Toe Loop and Axels. Salchows and Loops have also natural preroation but I think skater can reach more than 90 and still be considered a good technique.

The main problem are jumps with over 180 degrees prerotation, and some skater prerotate almost 3/4 revolution on ice.
 

Alchamei

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2014
Can someone who is knowledgeable abut the tech aspects clarify who the worst pre-rotation offenders are at the moment? I always hear it's the Russians, but I'm not good enough at spotting it to judge for myself.
Sherbakova prerotates 3/4 rotation of her quad Flip on ice and uses full blade to take off. This video explains it well and doesn't attack the skater.


Satoko Miyahara also had a problem with such prerotation.
 

sinus

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 1, 2021

If judges were strict with prerotation the American GOAT Michelle Kwan wouldn't have win anything.​

Michelle Kwan's Lutz, 2002.

Wrong edge, full blade assist, pre-rotation over 180.
(Anna Shcherbakova hadn't been born yet.)
Nobody cared, as long as she is not a Russian.

kwan5.gif
 
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Makkachin

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2017
Country
United-States
Based purely on my own skating experience I think it would be very difficult. Once you're doing doubles and triples, the movements are very ingrained. You would need to do a lot of singles and pretty much re-learning the jumps. It seems like there's a big difference between 90 degrees versus 180+ degrees of rotation but it's hard to control your body to that level of detail with something like a jump takeoff which happens so quickly and becomes so automatic after doing it for years.
 

thegreendestiny

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 2, 2015

If judges were strict with prerotation Michelle Kwan wouldn't have win anything.​

Michelle Kwan's Lutz, 2002.

Wrong edge, full blade assist, pre-rotation over 180.
(Anna Shcherbakova hadn't been born yet.)
Nobody cared, as long as she is not a Russian.
Beyond laughable how those faux technical "experts" overlook the fact that Michelle was the mother queen of wrong technique. 😅
 

Putina

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 31, 2017

If judges were strict with prerotation the American GOAT Michelle Kwan wouldn't have win anything.​

Michelle Kwan's Lutz, 2002.

Wrong edge, full blade assist, pre-rotation over 180.
(Anna Shcherbakova hadn't been born yet.)
Nobody cared, as long as she is not a Russian.

kwan5.gif
Not Lutz. So I assume prerotated lutz automatically means flutz?
 

LaineRC

Spectator
Joined
Feb 10, 2022

If judges were strict with prerotation the American GOAT Michelle Kwan wouldn't have win anything.​

Michelle Kwan's Lutz, 2002.

Wrong edge, full blade assist, pre-rotation over 180.
(Anna Shcherbakova hadn't been born yet.)
Nobody cared, as long as she is not a Russian.
True and hardly anyone cared about Kwan’s horrendous technique throughout the 90s and early 2000s and those who did were nearly burned at the stake! Some of the worst technique originated with the likes of Kwan! At least Chen and some other ladies of the 90s actually delayed their rotation to the top of the jump! True jumping technique!
 
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Alchamei

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2014

If judges were strict with prerotation the American GOAT Michelle Kwan wouldn't have win anything.​

Michelle Kwan's Lutz, 2002.

Wrong edge, full blade assist, pre-rotation over 180.
(Anna Shcherbakova hadn't been born yet.)
Nobody cared, as long as she is not a Russian.

kwan5.gif
No one cared be cause simply no one cared about technique at that time. Stop making everything about Russia.

Also, Sarah Hughes was often critisised of her underrotated jumps and she wasn't Russian either.
 
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kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Javier Fernandez wouldn't have won 2 world champions.

I agree, strong technique with less prerotation should be rewarded, and heavy prerotation should be dinged (by GOE). But some say if you do 1/2 prerotation it should be reduced to a 2Lz -> and with a 3T having 1/2 and same rotations, how can this be the preferred method of punishing prerotation.

In my experience, skaters naturally prerotate or they don't (probably biomechanical reasons) - however, the way they are taught the jumps at a young age has a big difference. Even when I broke down my jumps to singles and trained on them 5,6,7 hours just doing singles it wasn't something I could change. I assume it's the same for most skaters. When you are taught this technique (and prone to it naturally), and do it for over a decade, it's very difficult. Even a flutz is hard to correct: this is another level of difficulty to this.

I do think though, they need some sort of way to distinguish the strong jumpers who do not need prerotation.
 
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